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Author Topic: EU Referendum  (Read 91081 times)

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Cyberman

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #214 on: June 25, 2016, 02:21:56 PM »
This is the worst day in my lifetime for myself, my children, and my grandchildren. I am amazed that so many people can be blinded by the rhetoric of politicians who clearly believe that truthfulness is less important than success.
I would like to echo Franz's sentiments. As a 50-something Remain voter working in a foreign-owned manufacturing company, I think many Leave voters have done an excellent job of collective shooting-in-the-feet. I really hope I'm wrong as I have several years of work left.

Anyway there now a live petition at https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215 :-

 "We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% there should be another referendum."

Probably a waste of time, but I think the results of a second referendum would be different because

a) Many Leave voters now realise the true enormity of the changes we face (Scotland leaving, Pound falling, Ireland issues, many more non-productive pen-pushers required to sort out the mess)
b) More young people, who tend to vote Remain, would vote now they realise their vote really would count. Turnout in areas with predominantly young voters was significantly lower than those with mostly oldies.

I am feeling deeply depressed at the moment.

tigerman

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #213 on: June 25, 2016, 02:17:06 PM »
As your pal Tigerman told me recently: get over it!
Ha ha, sorry, didn't mean to be rude!
I think this referendum result will, for me, take quite a lot of getting over!

CllrGeoffAbell

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #212 on: June 25, 2016, 01:24:04 PM »
In case this wasn't reported elsewhere, Marple N voted to remain whilst Marple S voted out.

Stockport and Manchester as a whole voted to remain too.

As regards the referendum debate, this was the 3rd UK-wide and 3rd in Cameron's tenure; it is the first to go against the status quo. 

And whilst I do believe in referenda, there are many arguments against: an ill-informed electorate is just one.  (This may not be the fault of the electorate of course.)  Many Swiss cantons did not allow female voting - the last until 1991.

So, on the cards as possibilities - the break-up of the UK, The Jungle coming to Kent and a recession.  But the English are genuinely good at muddling through!

moorendman

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #211 on: June 25, 2016, 10:00:10 AM »
OK , I agree , having watched the clip now, that is a strong candidate for half wittery. I did not watch the clip when you first posted as I am a crotchety old man and get irritated by the constant posting of links to memes as beloved by younger, more enlightened people who live in the Social Media world.

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

Winston Churchill


Dave

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #210 on: June 25, 2016, 07:15:26 AM »
Half wits now? Democracy is great isn't it until you dont get what you want

The guy on that link voted Leave, and next morning said 'I didn’t think it was going to matter too much because I thought we were just going to remain.'

That, by anyone's definition, is a half-wit!

Melancholyflower

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #209 on: June 24, 2016, 11:03:40 PM »
Hear hear.

And yes, Dave, you have fallen foul of it!

moorendman

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #208 on: June 24, 2016, 09:01:16 PM »
Half wits now? Democracy is great isn't it until you dont get what you want.

As your pal Tigerman told me recently: get over it!

Dave

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #207 on: June 24, 2016, 04:32:23 PM »
The cold fact is that the vote of an Islington, left leaning, PPE graduate is only worth the same a sthat of a shaven headed, Sun reading roofer with a Bull terrier from South Lincolnshire

Or half-wits like these:  http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/i-really-regret-my-vote-now-the-brexit-voters-who-wish-theyd-voted-to-remain-a3280361.html

Dave

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #206 on: June 24, 2016, 02:49:56 PM »
I know I am falling foul of Godwin's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law), but here goes anyway:  referendums are apparently illegal in Germany, since Hitler held four of them in the 1930s, to shore up his position as German Chancellor. 

After what's happened here, maybe we should follow suit...........

moorendman

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #205 on: June 24, 2016, 01:48:54 PM »
I agree with your sentiment , Condate, but the likelihood is that the Islington leftie is more likely to make his views heard on a wider front and possibly achieve a higher level of power and influence.

Condate

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #204 on: June 24, 2016, 01:06:30 PM »
The cold fact is that the vote of an Islington, left leaning, PPE graduate is only worth the same a sthat of a shaven headed, Sun reading roofer with a Bull terrier from South Lincolnshire

The sad thing is that either of these has a say in the running of the country, but that's democracy for you; at least they balance each other out.

moorendman

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #203 on: June 24, 2016, 12:23:05 PM »

Quote
Where do these figures come from @Howard ? Are they from polls or are they from the actual votes cast?

Follow the link above and you will see that this BS set of stats is based on an on the day poll of less than 5000 people. Probably the same ones that led the polling company to forecast a Remain win.

Or you could see the reality of over 17 million votes.

One of most memorable quote I recall over the campaign was by the novelist, Howard Jacobson , who said that in his opinion, the polarisation generated in no small part by social media has led to the belief that if you dont think the same as me then you are a moron and should die. You see this every day.

The cold fact is that the vote of an Islington, left leaning, PPE graduate is only worth the same a sthat of a shaven headed, Sun reading roofer with a Bull terrier from South Lincolnshire

alstan

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #202 on: June 24, 2016, 12:03:06 PM »
This is the worst day in my lifetime for myself, my children, and my grandchildren. I am amazed that so many people can be blinded by the rhetoric of politicians who clearly believe that truthfulness is less important than success.

When the “leave” campaigners extolled the strength and virtues of “Britain” did they tell us that their success would almost certainly lead to the end of our United Kingdom with a “porous” border to the north, the loss of our only nuclear base and our place on the UN Security Council?

They preached the value of the Commonwealth but did they tell us that Australia and New Zealand have found new markets for their trade and agricultural products, particularly with the signing earlier this year of the ASEAN-Australia-New Zealand Trade Agreement, and their interest in trade with little England is much diminished? Did they point out that most Commonwealth countries are in it for what they can get out of it and they will increasingly look to donors like China and Russia, as they already have?

Did they explain that the US will increasingly turn to Berlin and Paris for their strategic conversations?

They tell us that we have the fifth largest economy in the world, and that achieved while we bear the millstone of the EU. They tell us that without that millstone we will be so much better off so where will our economy rank then? Second, third, fourth? I very much doubt it.

When ranting about EU red tape did they explain that most of what is said on the subject, the “bent cucumber” syndrome, is entirely mythical or introduced at the request of suppliers, consumers etc?

These politicians, or more likely their advisers, have a deep understanding of mass psychology and propaganda. They knew that, in order to be successful, they need to focus their campaign at a level which would be understood by most of the electorate. They did not debate the points raised by professionals, intellectuals, economists and experts. They merely dismissed and abused them. The leader of the most effective and successful union of states the world has ever seen was dismissed as “a hypocrite“. Others were “hysterical“, “bizarre“, and so it went on. To many people that was all they needed to know. They had no interest in giving consideration to the views of the OECD or the IMF. What are the OECD and the IMF anyway?

They found their focus, their route in to the minds of the people, in immigration and it served them well. Did they point out that we have an ageing population and need an influx of young people to generate the wealth necessary to sustain that population? Merkel understands that. Why don’t they?  “…the NHS will face an unquantifiable strain…” (Michael Gove). In the past two months I have seen four NHS professionals. They were from Rajasthan, Sri Lanka, Nigeria, and Eastern Europe. Anyway the NHS faces a future of intolerable strain regardless of migration.

Did they explain that many EU immigrants are young, well educated and ambitious? They come to work hard, build up a nest egg and their grasp of English, the lingua franca, and they express an intention to return home.

So, let’s hope we can sell lots and lots of vacuum cleaners, fans, backhoes and fork lift trucks to an eagerly waiting world.


admin

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #200 on: June 24, 2016, 10:55:00 AM »
These were the splits by age:
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain

Where do these figures come from @Howard ? Are they from polls or are they from the actual votes cast?
Mark Whittaker
The Marple Website