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Author Topic: EU Referendum  (Read 91629 times)

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Condate

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #229 on: June 26, 2016, 06:29:44 PM »
I think voters on both sides had to put up with a great deal of nonsense from both campaigns. This referendum did not show our democracy in a good light. The result was correct however. That said, it must be remembered that simply leaving the EU is not the final goal and does not automatically bring about the better Europe so many people on the leave side and indeed throughout Europe are looking for. It requires a lot of effort from the UK, but also a lot of effort from the many within Europe who want a better future than the EU could ever provide. In many ways it can be said that we in this country have done our bit and it is now for the people of the rest of Europe to complete the job.


Dave

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #228 on: June 26, 2016, 06:24:52 PM »
EU Project = The political project (the Commission, the Parliament, the Courts etc) based in Brussels, Strasbourg and elsewhere that has political, legal and fiscal harmonisation as its core raison d'etre.

No it doesn't.  Beyond a requirement that member states are democratic and subject to the rule of law, there is no political harmonisation. In fact the treaties specify the EU's obligation to respect the national identities and the fundamental political and constitutional structures of the individual Member States.

The euro is a monetary union but NOT a fiscal one, and it never will be.  The fact that fiscal matters (i.e. tax and spending) have been left to indivdual member states in the euro zone is the main reason why it has failed.

None of the countries within these organisations [NAFTA, ASEAN] has abrogated their laws or fiscal systems to a dominant country or project.

Neither has the EU.  There is no fiscal union between any EU member states. Most laws are down to individual countries. EU laws and directives mainly relate to cross-border issues such as agriculture, fisheries and the single market. 

  All of the countries outside of Europe look at the EU Project as being one of the most bizarre aspects of Europe and can't understand why we would give up our sovereignty to Germany.

I am not nearly as well travelled as mikes, but I have been to many countries, and I have always got the impression that the EU is regarded with respect and envy across the world, as a shining example of how countries which fought one another for 2,000 years can find a way of living in peace and prosperity.   As for giving up our sovereignty to Germany, you could argue that the other eurozone countries have done that, but it's nonsense to suggest that we have, or ever would. 

our relationship has been one of trying to maintain our distinctive being and not be subjected to political, legal and fiscal union.   We had no say over the Maastricht or Lisbon Treaties.

See above.  There is no political, legal or fiscal union, and there never will be.  We were part of the drafting of the the Lisbon and Maastricht treaties, and we willingly signed them 

So it will not surprise me if other countries don't follow the UK out of the EU Project. 

Me neither.  That's one of the most worrying and dangerous things about our current situation - the break-up of the EU could re-awaken national rivalries and animosity the like of which we have not seen for decades. We could be entering some dark times.   

I would like to think that mikes' rose-tinted view of where we are bore some relationship to reality, but I fear it doesn't.  We are in the most almighty mess, and the referendum has caused damage that will take years to repair, if indeed it is ever repaired.  Hold on to your hat, mikes, because we're all in for a very bumpy ride! 


Cyberman

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #227 on: June 26, 2016, 05:44:15 PM »
Yes very well put, mikes. That's the first thing I've read that's made me feel remotely positive about this affair - the first coherent article backed by believable facts. I just hope the hit on our economy isn't so great that we are no longer worthy of partnership with these other countries. Unfortunately our manufacturing industry is now heavily reliant on European companies and I know from personal experience that they look after their own.

The reason I feel aggrieved is that I don't think the process was fair. I believe "Leave" voters were influenced by lies from the tabloid newspapers and the Leave proponents (who have now gone very quiet..). A significant number now realise this. You could say it's their own fault - but that doesn't make me feel better!

chicken lady

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #226 on: June 26, 2016, 05:03:38 PM »
Very well put mikes. Has made a lot of sense. Thank you






mikes

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #225 on: June 26, 2016, 04:02:22 PM »
What follows is my personal view.

The EU Referendum poll has been done the result is final and those on the losing side are bound to feel aggrieved.  That is democracy.

It appears that many people are conflating Europe with the EU Project.  To me they are quite separate.

Europe = countries within the EU project plus the other countries outside the EU project, including the UK.  All of these countries have distinctive cultures, peoples, languages, geographies, foods etc.  I would have added wines & beers but as I no longer drink any alcohol they are irrelevant.  Long may those unique qualities exist as it makes traveling so interesting.  European countries should continue to trade and within reason allow freedom of movement between them.

EU Project = The political project (the Commission, the Parliament, the Courts etc) based in Brussels, Strasbourg and elsewhere that has political, legal and fiscal harmonisation as its core raison d'etre.

My decision to leave the EU Project was based on 80% dislike of the EU Project telling us what we can and can't do and 20% on economics.  For me, and many others, Brexit is about leaving the EU Project not about leaving Europe, which is only 20 miles away.

Immigration had nothing to do with my decision.  I am in a secure well paid and very interesting job that allows me to travel extensively around the world.  I love the idea of multiculturalism and have students from over 50 countries scattered across every continent (except Antarctica) on my 2nd year undergraduate Finance course with whom I have many interesting and varied discussions.  For all of my friends immigration is seen as a huge benefit to the UK and many friends run large businesses that depend on immigrants for their language skills and knowledge of the business systems and networks in their countries to help open doors to trade.  Though for many other people who may be poorly educated and low paid to lose their jobs to cheaper East European labour I can see that immigration would be an issue.  Our generous welfare system and relatively high minimum wage and thriving "black market" all without identity papers is clearly a massive magnet to people from elsewhere.  A points based system that allows freedom of movement if one has the appropriate skills seems a pretty good pragmatic solution to dealing with uncontrolled immigration.  We have been prevented from implementing such by the EU Project.  Maybe we should also introduce identity cards for access to all public services.  Though I think that would go down like a lead balloon with many Brits having given them up after WW2.

I have visited and worked in over 120 countries including many in South America, Africa, Australasia, Middle East, Russia and the Far East as well as all but one European country (Latvia).  I was toting them up during the opening ceremony of the Olympics in London in 2012, and lost count after 122.  Clearly I have been to far more countries than exist in Europe.  Nowhere that I have been, outside of Europe, is there any sort of project that says a dominant power can dictate laws and terms of existence to the other countries.  The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) was set up to eliminate barriers to trade and investment between the U.S., Canada and Mexico.  The Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) with around fifteen members - its aims include accelerating economic growth, social progress and socio-cultural evolution among its members, alongside protection of regional stability as well as providing a mechanism for member countries to resolve differences peacefully.  There is also a trade agreement in South America but its acronym and name escapes me at the moment. None of the countries within these organisations has abrogated their laws or fiscal systems to a dominant country or project.  Would the USA abrogate its law making to Mexico?  Would Australia give up the AUS$ for the Yuan?  It is silly to even ask the questions. Clearly if countries want to trade they have to ensure their products meet the requirements of the country they want to trade with but they have not turned their law making over to another country.  And the use of a common currency, e.g. US$, might facilitiate trade.  But no other country, apart from Zimbabwe that I'm aware of, has given up their own currency.  Even Zimbabwe has adopted a basket of currencies.  Trade and free movement between these groups is pretty easy and long may those continue. That is what we want.  All of the countries outside of Europe look at the EU Project as being one of the most bizarre aspects of Europe and can't understand why we would give up our sovereignty to Germany.

Britain has always had a tetchy relationship with the EU.  We joined a Common Market in 1973.  By the way de Gaulle was right - we should never have joined, but we did.  Since then our relationship has been one of trying to maintain our distinctive being and not be subjected to political, legal and fiscal union.  We had no say over the Maastricht or Lisbon Treaties.  This referendum was the first time in over 40 years that the people of the UK have had a chance to have a say in the matter and it doesn't surprise me that there was this backlash.   A little history is required.  Since Magna Carta in 1215 the UK has had a charter of liberty and political rights.  This was supplemented by parliamentary democracy from about 1720 when Walpole became our first Prime Minister and power was removed from the Monarch.  Sweden also set up a parliamentary system about the same time.  This is quite unlike a presidential system shared by most of our European counterparts who, for much of the time, suffered under one form of dictatorship or another.  So our histories are totally different and this largely informs the reasons why the UK has always been EU sceptic and perhaps why European countries have embraced political and fiscal union.

But the EU project has failed.  It has caused massive unemployment to the youth across Europe, particularly Southern Europe.  The Euro has been a disaster especially for the weaker countries.  Germany, in particularly, has just shifted all of its debt to poor countries like Greece who are unable to pay it back because they don't produce anything much worthwhile.  The whole project has been driven by Germany and to a lesser extent France into the ground.  Even the EU commissioners are beginning to realise this but they seem totally focussed on the original goals and despite many attempts by the UK to alter course they do not want to listen.  Perhaps it will take a Frexit to finally get them to change their minds.  But a Brexit or a Frexit or any other country exit is not to be feared.  It is an opportunity to improve a failed system.

If the young feel so aggrieved why didn't they vote?  Apparently the turnout amongst the young was abysmally low compared to other demographics, though I can't find the concrete proof of this.  However, amongst my own students, who are of voting age and elligible to vote, i.e. not overseas students, the level of interest in this referendum was 10% could be bothered, based on a sample of over 300.  The other 90% were not interested or didn't want to understand or engage despite my many efforts to enthuse them of the arguments from both sides.  This is from students at one of the top universities in Europe.

Other countries within the EU Project, who are even more sceptical than the UK, have also realised this and hence the reason EU scepticism is on the rise across Europe.  So it will not surprise me if other countries don't follow the UK out of the EU Project.  EU scepticism is not about racism it is about regaining control and have the ability for each country to make their own laws that suit their particular circumstances.

So to all the young people Brexit is not about removing ourselves from the global community.  Far from it.  It is about re-engaging with the global community, regaining our sovereignty and trading with the whole world not just the other 27 European countries.  Trade will bring wealth and jobs.  What is there to fear in that?


Dave

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #224 on: June 26, 2016, 11:10:59 AM »
Our next entry should obviously be Millwall FC's 'No-one likes us, we don't care' sung to the tune of 'Sailing'..........

alstan

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #223 on: June 26, 2016, 10:57:47 AM »
Nobody has mentioned the implications for the Eurovision Song Contest. 20th May 2017, that's when we will find out if anybody still likes us.

Melancholyflower

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #222 on: June 26, 2016, 08:30:15 AM »
Give it time Melancholy - sooner or later the penny will drop! ;-)

Agreed, giving it time is precisely what we all need to do. Likely to be short term pain for long term gain.  No kneejerk reactions, and more importantly still, no obstructiveness once the decision has been made. Move forward together.

marpleexile

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #221 on: June 25, 2016, 08:06:24 PM »
Door slammed shut on Turkey. Well done UK.

Just out of interest, can anyone explain why Turkey's possible inclusion in the EU is/was such a big deal?

Lots of Leavers were banging on about Turkey being allowed to join soon, and regardless of the truth in that assertion, no one ever really explained why that would be a bad thing.

red666bear

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #220 on: June 25, 2016, 07:32:00 PM »
I am concerned that Turkey will be allowed to join the EU sooner than is being predicted due to their taking in of a lot of Syrian refugees. Apparently up to 500,000 polish were entitled to vote in the recent London mayor election. Is that an accurate figure?
Maybe I'm being too simplistic but Australia is an island and appears to be reasonably self sufficient why can't we go down that route?
So at the moment I am voting out as I believe we could be swamped with millions of Turkish people in as little as the next decade and sorry but we don't have the room and need to reclaim control of our borders.
Door slammed shut on Turkey. Well done UK.

Dave

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #219 on: June 25, 2016, 06:10:37 PM »
No regrets here, Dave!

Give it time Melancholy - sooner or later the penny will drop! ;-)

Melancholyflower

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #218 on: June 25, 2016, 05:41:24 PM »
Apparently this is quite widespread, and there's even a word for it: Bregret!

No regrets here, Dave!

All sorts of insults thrown at Leave voters, ageism, petitions to get another referendum because they don't like the result... Astounding hypocrisy from Remain voters who are unhappy that the majority do not agree with them.

The referendum should be celebrated for what it is - the purest form of democracy.

Accept the decision and move on.

Howard

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #217 on: June 25, 2016, 05:35:03 PM »
Despite being a committed remain voter, I have no sympathy for the people who decided they'd use their vote as a protest. It's the equivalent of standing over a body with a smoking gun saying "I didn't know it was loaded".

Equally I have little (some perhaps) sympathy for those under 24. I can't find the web page I was looking at but apparently the turnout from them was very low indeed. My recall is poor (so many numbers over the past few days) but it could have been around 30%. They could have changed the vote but didn't bother. There is no way young people would let their Gran choose their clothes, but they were lazy enough to let them make their political choices for them. Perhaps one benefit of this might be the wake-up call for young people to vote.

My main thought is that this referendum was really uneccessary and was caused by the old Tory party rift and Cameron being terrified of Farage's UKIP and Boris. He put party interests ahead of the country's. However, I reckon Boris has been looking very downbeat and I think that because he realises that he has lost.

With his resignation, Cameron effectively annulled his part of instigating the referendum result, and simultaneously put the kybosh on the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who caused him so much trouble and, ultimately, his premiership. How? Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear; he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but he abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

As we have seen, the enormity of the result started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list has grown and grown.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction. The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50? Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson is in a bind. If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

Therefore I think that when Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really wanted to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal declaration of implementing article 50 would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take. Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction. David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

Dave

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #216 on: June 25, 2016, 05:24:36 PM »
Many Leave voters have done an excellent job of collective shooting-in-the-feet........ Many Leave voters now realise the true enormity of the changes we face

Apparently this is quite widespread, and there's even a word for it: Bregret!

moorendman

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #215 on: June 25, 2016, 03:39:36 PM »
Where can one find the online data such as Councillor Abell refers to? Is it just by Ward or even lower ie by Polling station.