Consulting Structural & Civil Engineers in Marple Bridge

Poll

Should the UK stay in the EU?

Stay in
23 (44.2%)
Get out
22 (42.3%)
Don't know / not decided
7 (13.5%)

Total Members Voted: 52

Voting closed: June 27, 2016, 08:51:06 PM

Author Topic: EU Referendum  (Read 61827 times)

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Andy

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #289 on: March 28, 2018, 09:11:14 AM »
Jeez - Really?

So to interact with our MP we have to buy tickets to a show or attend a niche meeting for a tiny section of the constituency?



You could have met him if you'd have gone to the public meeting about proposals for a Mellor, Marple Bridge, Mill Brow and Compstall (MMMC) Neighbourhood Plan. He was there. Or again, at the Gang Show in Marple last week. He is about quite often.

Harry

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #288 on: March 27, 2018, 08:24:16 PM »
I voted for wragg in general but wont be again like you say never see or hear from him .

You could have met him if you'd have gone to the public meeting about proposals for a Mellor, Marple Bridge, Mill Brow and Compstall (MMMC) Neighbourhood Plan. He was there. Or again, at the Gang Show in Marple last week. He is about quite often.
"Nothing is infinite, except the universe and stupid people, and sometimes, I doubt the universe."
--- Albert Einstein

amazon

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #287 on: March 25, 2018, 04:42:43 PM »
Wragg was almost invisible last election.  He did nothing.  He - like many Tory politicians - refused to do hustings.  There was no campaigning on the doorstep.  Nothing.  We had one whole leaflet in our house and it was highly generic.  I remember his "I was a teacher" line (hint - dig into that story and it turns out he was a trainee teacher and left for politics at the end of the course,)

You can do all you want to try and get people to vote on the person rather than the party, but when the person hides away, how do you do that? 

And the fact is that you may vote on the candidate, most people don't.  Out of the general electorate, the vast majority don't go to hustings, or pay huge attention to the story.  They see sound bites on TV, hear snippets on the radio, get told what to believe by the Mail, the Sun and the Express.  And that's about it.  To do any more requires effort, and most people don't care enough.  Hey, 31.3% of people didn't even vote at all election.  And that's the lowest number since 1997.
I voted for wragg in general but wont be again like you say never see or hear from him .

GeoffAbell

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #286 on: March 25, 2018, 12:27:07 PM »
We do have representative democracy and that means letting MPs get on with it, but whether that means lead from the front or listen to popular demand is a judgement call.  However if we had PR, Brexiteers could form a line outside Will's office and Remainers would be represented too.

Poor old Cameron actually had 3 referendum events, so maybe he was likely to lose one!

I do worry most days the news is telling us how much worse we will be without friends in the rest of Europe.  Mind you, there is nothing like a damaging incident like agent-poisoning or terrorism to get sides to pull together.

Dave

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #285 on: February 23, 2018, 09:55:13 AM »
If Wragg and his fellow wreckers carry on like this, the next Prime Minister will be Jeremy Corbyn. The bookies are already expecting it:  http://sports.williamhill.com/bet/en-gb/betting/g/5657323/Prime+Minister+Betting.html

andrewbowden

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #284 on: February 22, 2018, 08:18:49 PM »
I must say I find that surprising. I voted for him precisely because of his views on the EU; not because he stood as a Conservative, and probably would have abstained if there were not a candidate who opposed the EU (although there probably would have been a candidate from UKIP if there had been no other anti-EU candidate). I hope nobody votes for any candidate based on a party manifesto (although I suspect some do). It's always the individual candidate that matters and it's important to know what the views of the candidates are; it's almost impossible to make a sensible decision on who to vote for otherwise.. It is unfortunate (but understandably in the circumstances) that we had no hustings this time, but I was glad to see the hustings for the previous election were well attended, as it's very important to hear what the specific candidates have to say.

Wragg was almost invisible last election.  He did nothing.  He - like many Tory politicians - refused to do hustings.  There was no campaigning on the doorstep.  Nothing.  We had one whole leaflet in our house and it was highly generic.  I remember his "I was a teacher" line (hint - dig into that story and it turns out he was a trainee teacher and left for politics at the end of the course,)

You can do all you want to try and get people to vote on the person rather than the party, but when the person hides away, how do you do that? 

And the fact is that you may vote on the candidate, most people don't.  Out of the general electorate, the vast majority don't go to hustings, or pay huge attention to the story.  They see sound bites on TV, hear snippets on the radio, get told what to believe by the Mail, the Sun and the Express.  And that's about it.  To do any more requires effort, and most people don't care enough.  Hey, 31.3% of people didn't even vote at all election.  And that's the lowest number since 1997.

Condate

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #283 on: February 22, 2018, 06:16:56 PM »
  MPs also get voted in on the basis of a national manifesto, set by the party leadership.  Many of his voters will not be aware of his personal views and will have voted for him on the basis of the national manifesto.

I must say I find that surprising. I voted for him precisely because of his views on the EU; not because he stood as a Conservative, and probably would have abstained if there were not a candidate who opposed the EU (although there probably would have been a candidate from UKIP if there had been no other anti-EU candidate). I hope nobody votes for any candidate based on a party manifesto (although I suspect some do). It's always the individual candidate that matters and it's important to know what the views of the candidates are; it's almost impossible to make a sensible decision on who to vote for otherwise.. It is unfortunate (but understandably in the circumstances) that we had no hustings this time, but I was glad to see the hustings for the previous election were well attended, as it's very important to hear what the specific candidates have to say.

Dave

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #282 on: February 22, 2018, 05:16:08 PM »
He is doing what a great many, quite possibly the majority, of his constituents want him to do. I've no idea what the 'when he thinks we aren't looking' comment is supposed to imply.

It means that Wragg is certainly not doing what his constituents want him to do!  So he's doing it behind our backs. That's why the letter is headed 'private and confidential'. 

As andrewbowden points out, those who voted for Willie Wragg did so on the basis of the Tory manifesto, which promised 'a deep and special partnership with the EU, including a comprehensive free trade and customs agreement, and that we would 'seek to replicate all existing EU free trade agreements and support the ratification of trade agreements entered into during our EU membership'.

But Wragg and the other 61 irresponsible wreckers who signed that letter are Brextremists who don't actually want us to reach any agreement with the remainder of the EU. They want us to walk away without an agreement. But that is not what people voted for, and they know it.

I'm ashamed that we have someone like that as our MP.

andrewbowden

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #281 on: February 22, 2018, 04:47:53 PM »
Incidentally, we vote for MPs in Parliament to make decisions on our behalf.  Referendums - of any kind, on any subject - do not fit into this model.  A national plebiscite is a failure of MPs to actually do their job properly...

andrewbowden

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #280 on: February 22, 2018, 04:38:49 PM »
William Wragg got elected for a number of reasons. There were two reasons I voted for him. Firstly, as mentioned, no candidate from UKIP was standing and it was absolutely vital for the UK and Europe that we had an MP who supported leaving the EU. Secondly, the most likely alternative as Lisa Smart and that just doesn't bear thinking about.

He is the person this constituency sent to Parliament. He is morally obliged to vote for what he thinks is best for Hazel Grove and for the UK. Neither he, nor any other MP of whatever political persuasion is supposed to change what they say, or how they vote depending on how close the result was. It is unreasonable to expect him to do and say other that he has, just as it would be unreasonable for an MP who supported the EU stop saying he or she thinks the referendum result was a mistake.

Not sure who was asking him to say the referendum was a mistake?  I mean he clearly believes in leaving the EU and doing it in the hardest way possible.

But every MP is there to represent ALL their constituents, not just the ones they agree on.  MPs also get voted in on the basis of a national manifesto, set by the party leadership.  Many of his voters will not be aware of his personal views and will have voted for him on the basis of the national manifesto.  Wragg is currently going against the party leadership, whose policies helped get him his job...  How many people voted him in on the basis of the national ticket that he's now going against?  Well given he didn't bother to campaign last election, I'd argue the figures are quite high in the national manifesto's favour.



Condate

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #279 on: February 22, 2018, 03:50:53 PM »
William Wragg got elected for a number of reasons. There were two reasons I voted for him. Firstly, as mentioned, no candidate from UKIP was standing and it was absolutely vital for the UK and Europe that we had an MP who supported leaving the EU. Secondly, the most likely alternative as Lisa Smart and that just doesn't bear thinking about.

He is the person this constituency sent to Parliament. He is morally obliged to vote for what he thinks is best for Hazel Grove and for the UK. Neither he, nor any other MP of whatever political persuasion is supposed to change what they say, or how they vote depending on how close the result was. It is unreasonable to expect him to do and say other that he has, just as it would be unreasonable for an MP who supported the EU stop saying he or she thinks the referendum result was a mistake.




andrewbowden

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #278 on: February 22, 2018, 03:14:20 PM »
Opinion polls have been proved wrong so many times in recent years that they are best ignored. Its easily possible to prove any desired result with a poll.

Hazel Grove voted 52.21% to leave the EU. The UK voted 51.89% to leave the EU. So its pointless saying 'imagine if the result went the other way'. It didn't. We are leaving. Its time for all the snowflakes to accept it and work together towards a brighter future.

But of course, some people only want democracy when the result goes their way.

Ah the snowflake accusation comes out.  No need to worry any more what kind of fence you sit on.  I speak of building bridges, taking everyone on a journey, you just assume that you're right about everything and everyone else can stuff it.  Makes you wonder who actually is the "snowflake"...

But everyone else please listen - anyone who doesn't agree with Harry better shut up!  Cos that's democracy!

Harry

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #277 on: February 22, 2018, 02:32:32 PM »
He is doing what SOME of his constituents want.  And given he kept his seat mainly due to Ukip not standing, I suspect we know which ones.

I sincerely doubt it's the majority by any means.  Wragg didn't even manage to get a majority of the constituency voting for him in the last election - only 45.4% of the voters.  But let's not beat around the bush here.  He's not representing the people in Hazel Grove who wanted to stay in the EU - at best he's ignoring them.  At worst he's deliberately antognising them.  He's not representing the leave voters who think staying in the customs union is a good idea.  There's been multiple opinion polls on this and they all say the same thing - there's a majority for stating in the single market full stop.  Yes, even leave voters.  The latest of many came in a month ago.
http://metro.co.uk/2018/01/19/people-want-stay-single-market-brexit-7242029/
The referendum was close in its result.  The UK certainly didn't decide en-mass to leave the EU.  It was a slender majority.  But instead of trying to bridge the gap and bring people along on the journey, people like Wragg - and his new bezzie, 18th century throwback Jacob Rees-Mogg - are acting like they won a highly convincing victory.

It's been said by many, but just imagine if the result went the other way - 52% remain, 48% leave.  And that following that Cameron and Osborne decided that was enough of a mandate to do HARD REMAIN.  Join Schengen.  Adopt the Euro immediately.  Would that help heal the country's bitter divide?

Opinion polls have been proved wrong so many times in recent years that they are best ignored. Its easily possible to prove any desired result with a poll.

Hazel Grove voted 52.21% to leave the EU. The UK voted 51.89% to leave the EU. So its pointless saying 'imagine if the result went the other way'. It didn't. We are leaving. Its time for all the snowflakes to accept it and work together towards a brighter future.

But of course, some people only want democracy when the result goes their way.
"Nothing is infinite, except the universe and stupid people, and sometimes, I doubt the universe."
--- Albert Einstein

andrewbowden

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #276 on: February 22, 2018, 01:33:03 PM »
He is doing what a great many, quite possibly the majority, of his constituents want him to do. I've no idea what the 'when he thinks we aren't looking' comment is supposed to imply.

He is doing what SOME of his constituents want.  And given he kept his seat mainly due to Ukip not standing, I suspect we know which ones.

I sincerely doubt it's the majority by any means.  Wragg didn't even manage to get a majority of the constituency voting for him in the last election - only 45.4% of the voters.  But let's not beat around the bush here.  He's not representing the people in Hazel Grove who wanted to stay in the EU - at best he's ignoring them.  At worst he's deliberately antognising them.  He's not representing the leave voters who think staying in the customs union is a good idea.  There's been multiple opinion polls on this and they all say the same thing - there's a majority for stating in the single market full stop.  Yes, even leave voters.  The latest of many came in a month ago.
http://metro.co.uk/2018/01/19/people-want-stay-single-market-brexit-7242029/

The referendum was close in its result.  The UK certainly didn't decide en-mass to leave the EU.  It was a slender majority.  But instead of trying to bridge the gap and bring people along on the journey, people like Wragg - and his new bezzie, 18th century throwback Jacob Rees-Mogg - are acting like they won a highly convincing victory.

It's been said by many, but just imagine if the result went the other way - 52% remain, 48% leave.  And that following that Cameron and Osborne decided that was enough of a mandate to do HARD REMAIN.  Join Schengen.  Adopt the Euro immediately.  Would that help heal the country's bitter divide? 

Harry

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #275 on: February 22, 2018, 12:29:36 PM »
So this is what our esteemed MP gets up to when he thinks we aren't looking......   ;)

https://www.scribd.com/document/371977491/Letter-from-European-Research-Group-to-PM-May#fullscreen&from_embed

He is doing what a great many, quite possibly the majority, of his constituents want him to do. I've no idea what the 'when he thinks we aren't looking' comment is supposed to imply.
"Nothing is infinite, except the universe and stupid people, and sometimes, I doubt the universe."
--- Albert Einstein