Paul Whittaker Plumbing

Author Topic: EU Referendum  (Read 91622 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Condate

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #244 on: June 28, 2016, 12:00:12 PM »
Contrary to many of the comments posted on this thread, virtually all the people I've listened too who voted leave were all against free movement in Europe. Which is an immigration issue whichever way you look at it.

We must talk to different people!

Dave

  • Guest
Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #243 on: June 28, 2016, 10:27:37 AM »
Interesting post by barndoor, although he's quite wrong to blame the EU for that list of 'ignored' referendums.  They were not held by the EU.   They were all called and held by the various countries listed, and it was the Danish and Irish governments that re-ran their referendums, and the French, Dutch and Greek governments that ignored theirs.

But I suspect barndoor is on to something nevertheless.  Not that we will see a straight re-run of last week's referendum - the chances of that happening here are approximately zero.  But we might see a referendum on the exit terms - potential Tory leadership candidate Jeremy Hunt is already trailing that idea.  Or we might get a General Election in the autumn as a kind of 'proxy referendum'. 

Here's Boris Johnson's article from yesterday's Telegraph:  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/i-cannot-stress-too-much-that-britain-is-part-of-europe--and-alw/

A key bit is this:  'British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market..... Yes, the Government will be able to take back democratic control of immigration policy, with a balanced and humane points-based system to suit the needs of business and industry.'

Now in the real world -  as opposed to on Planet Boris - we all know that the prospect of being part of the single market but not signing up to free movement of labour is for the birds - it ain't going to happen!  But Boris has got to appear to be negotiating for it.

So a possible scenario is this: the new UK Prime Minister (Johnson, May, whoever) negotiates strongly for access to the single market while introducing immigration controls, but fails.  Oh dear.  Never mind, we've got the best deal we can, so we're putting it to the vote in a General Election, with a manifesto which includes the proposal that we leave the EU and join Norway and Iceland in the European Economic Area, thereby retaining access to the single market, but also retaining free movement of labour, and continuing to contribute to EU budgets, and continuing to be subject to the relevant areas of EU law, in social and market regulations, trade etc etc.  It's not ideal, but it's the best deal we could get etc etc etc. 

The trouble is, many Leavers thought they were voting for 'take back control', 'I want my country back' and (most ridiculous of all), 'more money for the NHS', so they won't like it. 

A less likely twist on this would be that the Labour Party gets its act together, elects a credible leader, and fights this General Election on a Remain ticket.  Maybe there could even be a pact between Labour and the LibDems (also Remainers, of course) not to stand against each other in any constituency.  Although that really is getting into the realms of fantasy.....

Yes I know, this is all just idle speculation.  But what else can you do?  These really are the most extraordinary times. 

simonesaffron

  • Guest
Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #242 on: June 28, 2016, 08:57:57 AM »
Contrary to many of the comments posted on this thread, virtually all the people I've listened too who voted leave were all against free movement in Europe. Which is an immigration issue whichever way you look at it.

The outcome of the referendum which as we all know is no more than advisory and as well as this, democracy is not just about the highest number to the exclusion of all else. That is the definition of tyranny not democracy.

There are an unprecedented  amount of political distractions at the moment ; new PM, complete disarray of the Labour Party, Scottish Fury, Irish Defiance. Lib Dem silliness and so on. When all this has been resolved or at least moved on a bit, then I would expect our elected members to fully debate our situation in Europe and taking the referendum result into consideration vote with their conscience and in the best interests of UK.     

barndoor

  • Guest
Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #241 on: June 27, 2016, 10:23:05 PM »
Isn't all this discussion about the result of the vote a waste of time? Like the visitors to Hotel California, the UK was never going to be allowed to leave. All of the current arguments that are vigorously being played out on mainstream media is all a smoke screen to make us plebs think there are some incredibly detailed and fractious discussions being played out behind closed doors.

There aren't.

We're going to remain in the EU whether we like it or not.

And in the meantime people's perception of an undemocratic, mendacious, money-grabbing behemoth is being deliberately modified: from feelings of cynicism and distrust, and active dislike by some, to apoplectic rage and utter despondency at the prospect that the UK might soon be independent from it. Just read the comments in the Guardian.

And here's what they want to remain a part of. Look folks, EU democracy in action!

The irony is that this has been gleefully posted by a clearly brainwashed Remainer who's put it on Instagram to show that there's hope (yes, hope!) that the results of previous referenda show that the UK decision might yet be overturned. Bless her, she and her equally enthusiastic but myopic chums are clearly incapable of seeing the irony that posting evidence of previous results being ignored or 'made to vote again' actually showcases the EU's contempt for the democratic process.




Condate

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #240 on: June 27, 2016, 10:10:47 PM »
I realise that Condate.  I was thinking more of people like this guy: 

I don't know who you voted for in the General Election, but I can guarantee that whoever it was, some of the others who voted the same way would be a severe embarassment to the candidate. It's always the way.


Dave

  • Guest
Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #239 on: June 27, 2016, 08:04:33 PM »
set up by the TV company to make their point.

Really?  And the England fans in France this weekend?  The ones shouting 'If you all hate Muslims, clap your hands'.  Were they a put-up job as well? 

tigerman

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #238 on: June 27, 2016, 06:46:23 PM »

Incidentally, I gather Boris Johnson's article in today's Telegraph, though I have not yet seen it, suggests that if Johnson becomes PM he will seek to ensure that the UK joins the single market by becoming a member of the European Economic Area. If that happens, we will still be subject to EU law, and there will still be free movement of EU citizens in and out of the UK. 

I wonder what some of the people who voted Leave will say when they find out that there will be no change to EU immigration.........
He implies in essence that UK citizens will be able to travel, work ,etc in Europe as now, but "the same rights would not be automatically extended to EU citizens in the UK" 

What planet is that man living on?  Aaargh!

red666bear

  • Guest
Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #237 on: June 27, 2016, 06:25:46 PM »
For most of us, that's fine. Immigration simply wasn't the issue.
Of course it was for a lot of people.
You try and live in Australia when your trade is kebab shop worker or taxi driver etc...

mikes

  • Guest
Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #236 on: June 27, 2016, 03:22:15 PM »
set up by the TV company to make their point.

Dave

  • Guest
Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #235 on: June 27, 2016, 01:51:08 PM »
I realise that Condate.  I was thinking more of people like this guy: 

Condate

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #234 on: June 27, 2016, 01:03:47 PM »
I wonder what some of the people who voted Leave will say when they find out that there will be no change to EU immigration.........

For most of us, that's fine. Immigration simply wasn't the issue.


Dave

  • Guest
Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #233 on: June 27, 2016, 12:39:18 PM »
A legal union would exist in the EU if all laws in every member state were drawn up and enforced by the EU, and were common to every country.   That is not the case - far from it.  Most law across the EU is national law, and it varies from country to country. 

The jurisdiction of the ECJ relates solely to EU law, which as I pointed out in an earlier post, covers areas in the Treaties such as EU administration, social and market regulations, free movement and trade etc.

Incidentally, I gather Boris Johnson's article in today's Telegraph, though I have not yet seen it, suggests that if Johnson becomes PM he will seek to ensure that the UK joins the single market by becoming a member of the European Economic Area. If that happens, we will still be subject to EU law, and there will still be free movement of EU citizens in and out of the UK. 

I wonder what some of the people who voted Leave will say when they find out that there will be no change to EU immigration.........


Melancholyflower

  • Guest
Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #232 on: June 26, 2016, 09:52:04 PM »
Good post mikes. Thoughtful, and positive.

You say there's no legal Union, Dave. How then would you explain the function of the European Court of Justice?

As a result of its ruling on the gender equalisation of insurance premiums in 2012, every country in the EU had to accept its decision. It was widely denounced by all sectors of the UK insurance industry, and resulted in women having to pay higher insurance premiums, even though they statistically live longer than men and are a better risk for other forms of insurance, most notably motor.

If that's not legal Union, what is?

Dave

  • Guest
Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #231 on: June 26, 2016, 07:24:36 PM »
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-26/racist-incidents-have-u-k-worried-what-referendum-has-wrought

..... and I fear this is just the beginning.

I know many - probably most - Leave voters are not racist.  But some undoubtedly are - we have all seen and heard them being interviewed  in the street on radio and television news programmes.

I used to be really proud to be British.  But the way things are going, I'm starting to feel ashamed.  The racist genie is out of the bottle, and it could be very very hard to put it back again.   It's a pity this government has inflicted so many cuts on the police - I think we are about to need them. 

CllrGeoffAbell

  • Guest
Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #230 on: June 26, 2016, 06:44:09 PM »
Where can one find the online data such as Councillor Abell refers to? Is it just by Ward or even lower ie by Polling station.

I don't think it was publicly announced by individual ward, but it was my impression on the (rather long) night.  It is fascinating watching a count; it is a transparent process at each stage.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/eu-referendum-results-stockport-leave-11518208

I am of course saddened by the result and I think we'll live to regret it, but others have already articulated my thoughts well here; I won't add to them.