Say 'No' Awareness Signs

[Miss Marple]

You're right, Miss M, the quote I used was factual, and I apologise for implying that it wasn't. But that quote is a classic example of 2 plus 2 equals 5 - ie making something out of nothing. You post something as if it's a dramatic new revelation, when it's nothing of the sort. Of course there are site surveys going on, and road surveys too - it's just people from the council, and from the college's consultants, getting on with their jobs.
As for leaks and rumours, you have admitted many times that you make use of these sources.

I am informing people without your knowledge and insight Oh Great One !  Of course I inform the community ! Are you confusing me with someone else ?   My name is Miss Marple ! Not Ms Cassidy!   

[Dave]

You're right, Miss M, the quote I used was factual, and I apologise for implying that it wasn't. But that quote is a classic example of 2 plus 2 equals 5 - ie making something out of nothing. You post something as if it's a dramatic new revelation, when it's nothing of the sort. Of course there are site surveys going on, and road surveys too - it's just people from the council, and from the college's consultants, getting on with their jobs.
As for leaks and rumours, you have admitted many times that you make use of these sources.

[Miss Marple]

Tina I have decided that if you really really really want to know the facts that you should put the time and energy into finding out like I have had to do for everyday for nearly 5 months...

The trouble is, Miss M, that as we know, this sort of thing is what you seem to call 'facts' and 'knowledge':

Did you now that the new road has had men sizing up and when asked were not from the council, did you know that the Buxton Lane Campus has also had planners sizing up, did you know that the Buxton Lane Campus can only build on the car park, so if they are not building up how do they intend to house the Hibbert Lane students. [/quote
And so on.  And on, and on, and on.........  ::

You write that 'without knowledge the yes group is not credible', but it is MIA that lacks credibility because of its reliance on rumour, speculation, leaks, gossip, conspiracy theories and 2+2 = 5.   These are a poor substitute for facts and hard informati

Hey that's a Little below the belt  David and I had missed this latest attempt to belittle me !    These are facts we have had them passed on to us by concerned residents living around the Buxton Lane Campus.  If I am not mistaken I think Mark reported this
on the forum so I hope you are not referring as well to  Mark as being a scare monger.     The sizing up of
the new road  was reported via the Action Line several times  and the people who contacted MIA had asked the work men if they worked for the council which they reported that they did not.  So please stop shooting the messenger, because in the real world I doubt if I would even communicate with you Dave,  but there again without your continual digs at me I fear  your life maybe oh so very boring  Night Night  

[Miss Marple]

Post overwritten. Please use the PM system to continue chatting about unrelated issues. Admin

[sooty2]

Btw, what's with the change of name, Mrs O?  I rather liked the last one.  

Some woman has been using it as a stage name on the Costas

[Dave]

It's an interesting idea, bellestar, that a multi-million pound property deal involving public sector assets could be made on the basis of one person averting her gaze and pretending she doesn't know about the better offer! 

Sadly, this is the real world, and it ain't like that.   

This kind of major issue is one for the college governors.  It cannot be delegated to the principal.  As we know, the governors commissioned a property strategy examining all the options for developing and improving the college's estate.  The expensive international consultants they retained no doubt did a thorough job, and they advised the governors that the best price could be received for Hibbert Lane if planning consent for retail use could be secured. I'm afraid once the governors know that, they can't 'un-know' it, if you see what I mean.  Their legal duty, as you know, is to safeguard the college's assets, which includes getting the best price if assets are disposed of. 

[Belle Star]

But I do think that MIA are being economical with the truth (to coin a phrase  .  I think we would all think better of them if they came clean and said 'yes, we know that our campaign, if it is successful. will deprive our children and grandchildren of £8 million of investment in their educational facilities, but we believe that this is a price worth paying in order to achieve our other objectives'.  

What people are conveniently forgetting is that the college would not be able to spend an additional £8 million if Ms Cassidy had not pursued retail as an option, when she is well aware that the initial planning application will be rejected by the council as the site is not within Marple District Centre and outside the area zoned for retail as laid down by the Core Strategy. These provisions are in place for a reason, i.e. the Council believes that retail should only be within the designated area to protect existing businesses. If the college had not approached supermarkets with a view to selling to them, they would then have to sell the site for "best value" to alternative bidders and come up with a plan to improve the Buxton Lane campus with whatever money they were able to get. This notion that MIA are "depriving" anyone of investment money is not really the way I see it. MIA are simply trying to make the college sell the Hibbert Lane site within the parameters which are already in place as laid down by the planners and councillors - and for very good reason.

Not only that, the college has spent an awful lot of money on the assumption that they will eventually be granted planning permission in the knowledge that this will then cost the council thousands of pounds to have to fight their original decision.

[Dave]

I think as with anything you have to make personal judgement and sort the wheat from the chaff and assess what is reasonable and logical and what is not.

I totally agree.

I don't genuinely think the are any from MIA who are actively involved who are deliberately 'telling porkies' to get anyone to sign a petition.

I would like to think you were right, but I'm afraid you aren't.  This is part of a post of mine from last week:

Stopped by at the MIA gazebo in Market Street yesterday -  mainly, I must admit, to shelter from a downpour!  While I was browsing the leaflets, I couldn't help overhearing what one MIA person wielding a petition was saying about the college's plans - including all that stuff about the plan to use the proceeds of Hibbert Lane to develop Buxton Lane being a 'smokescreen' for the real plan, which was to move out of Marple altogether and build a new college on Jacksons Lane. And of course, people appeared to believe every word of it.........   

I'm not personally a supporter of MIA, because to my mind, education has to be the overriding priority. I admit that there is a valid case to be made against the college's plans - but by peddling nonsensical rumours, which have already been disproved, MIA just discredits itself.   

Now bear in mind this was not just some badly-informed gossip - this was an MIA official manning the MIA stand and wearing MIA ID, asking passers by to sign the petition.  I was fairly appalled! 

You seem to believe that they act underhandedly, with an ulterior motive for not wanting the development on Hibbert Lane. 

No, I don't see any ulterior motive on the part of MIA - they have been open about their reasons for opposing the college's plans.  These seem to be:

1. It would increase traffic congestion in Marple
2. It would increase disturbance to neighbouring properties, and reduce property values
3. It would take business away from the existing smaller shops in Marple

I don't think any reasonable person would dispute numbers 1 and 2. But the evidence for no 3 is less clear:  posts in these threads have provided examples elsewhere of supermarkets which have had a detrimental effect on local shops, and examples in other places where the local shops have survived and thrived.   

But I do think that MIA are being economical with the truth (to coin a phrase  .  I think we would all think better of them if they came clean and said 'yes, we know that our campaign, if it is successful. will deprive our children and grandchildren of £8 million of investment in their educational facilities, but we believe that this is a price worth paying in order to achieve our other objectives'. 

[marple_syrup]

I think as with anything you have to make personal judgement and sort the wheat from the chaff and assess what is reasonable and logical and what is not.
I don't genuinely think the are any from MIA who are actively involved who are deliberately 'telling porkies' to get anyone to sign a petition.  Obviously there is going to be a lot of rumour and speculation in something like this, but the argument about it being just that is also being used to dismiss people's thoughts and opinions out of hand.
All I know is that they have had extensive meetings with the college, the council, planning department, the loal area committe, highways, legal representatives... They have been looking at the deeds and covenants...
Yet you seem to believe that they act underhandedly, with an ulterior motive for not wanting the development on Hibbert Lane.  Have you ever stopped to wonder why they would lie?  I don't see any reason they would.  It is clear that some is speculation, but much of it based strongly on what has happened in similar towns with similar developments elsewhere.  Why dismiss this out of hand as scare mongering without considering the content?  For example, I was there when Paul Lawrence from the council quoted the size of the plot and size of the building development potential as 9 acres / 5.5 acres.  Yet I am still told to this day that the size is merely a scare tactic and the real development will be much smaller... Why dismiss this? 
I just get the feeling that the No argument is the more measured of the two.  It is against a large scale development for reasons of infrastructure, devaluation, and detriment to the town centre and community.  Throughout this there genuinely seems to be an appreciation that competition is needed for the coop, just not on the scale suggested.
The Yes argument meanwhile seems to want a supermarket there at all costs, irrespective of the collateral damage.  I know it will benefit individuals now, but when Marple turns into Bredbury (genuinely no offence intended) the place won't be the same for my kids.  It's difficult, and the political correctness issue is clouding matters, and I do appreciate the financial issue to people.  It's one of the situations where not everyone will be happy, and that is a hard pill to swallow on both sides and I'm sure we'd all agree that we want harmony and a happy neighbour.
People do need to stop being heated and stop taking offence to that when they do.  I can see why you were unhappy Tina, but again, I feel it would help to differentiate between an individual and tarring the whole group with that opinion, and not allow interactions like that to prejudice your future analysis of all arguments presented to you.

[Dave]

Dave it is food for thought!MIA members work their backsides off,It is called dedication to the cause.They won't be saying we wasted our time if the big SM blights our town.They will say we tried.

I appreciate that, Mrs O, although I suspect that MIA's scattergun approach to this issue may in the end prove to be counter-productive. This is because like any planning issue, this is going to be a slow burner, which will go on for many months and probably years.  And once planning applications are submitted, and the realities start to replace rumours and speculation, some people in Marple will start to realise some inconvenient truths.  In some cases, they will realise that an MIA person told them little porkies in order to con them into signing a petition - for example, that the plan to sell Hibbert Lane and develop Buxton Lane was a 'smokescreen' for moving out of Marple altogether.  And did the petition-wielding MIA people explain to anyone that their campaign would, if successful, deprive Marple of £8 million of badly-needed educational investment.  Did they 'eck as like! (as my dad used to say)   

As for the yes people being scared to speak out,scared of what?

I'm neither a yes-person nor a no-person, but I suspect people who are in favour of a supermarket will be reticent about shouting it from the rooftops, out of awareness of those who live close to the site.  As many of us have said at different times, people in the neighbouring houses really do have cause for concern about this plan, and we would all feel the same if we were in their shoes.

Btw, what's with the change of name, Mrs O?  I rather liked the last one.   

[tina]

Tina I have decided that if you really really really want to know the facts that you should put the time and energy into finding out like I have had to do for everyday for nearly 5 months.   It would have been the easiest thing to do in passing over all the information for the YES campaign to digest but NO ! if you want to be taken seriously go out and investigate, because like I have said time and time again, the YES campaign will need all the evidence they can get hold of if this goes ahead.  You appear very savvy in use of the Internet start researching then we can compare notes.   If you want to be taken seriously and represent the YES people you owe it to them to become more active and seek out information so that they are armed with the facts and as to the reason a supermarket on Hibbert Lane will not disrupt any of our community, without knowledge the yes group is not credible.  As for single parents we have lots of single mothers who support MIA and their main intrest is for their children not BOGOF deals
Harsh I may seem but I am sick of your continued disrespect of people trying to protect their community, shops, house prices and noise and light pollution.  Debate Tina is the answer not trying to incite an already volatile situation

You did ask us to message you and you would gladly provide the information as long as we didn't publish it etc...
Could you not of politely told me this when I messaged you a couple of weeks ago! I wouldn't of asked again!

[sooty2]

Dave it is food for thought!MIA members work their backsides off,It is called dedication to the cause.They won't be saying we wasted our time if the big SM blights our town.They will say we tried.As for the yes people being scared to speak out,scared of what?The people I see on the street hardly look mean or threatening.I don't think they carry any lethal weapons.They just need a thick skin not to retaliate to the parents of small children being prompted to shout "Tesco" as they walk by. What does that achieve?What kind of idiot would prompt an innocent child to say that?The mind boggles.On a lighter note Dave I think you would secretly like to be a member of MIA. I do believe the joining fee is £5000 plus you get the option to buy a T shirt at the cost price of £4.50 against the RRP of £5.Go on Dave!Get out of that closet

[Dave]

Tina I have decided that if you really really really want to know the facts that you should put the time and energy into finding out like I have had to do for everyday for nearly 5 months...

The trouble is, Miss M, that as we know, this sort of thing is what you seem to call 'facts' and 'knowledge':

Did you now that the new road has had men sizing up and when asked were not from the council, did you know that the Buxton Lane Campus has also had planners sizing up, did you know that the Buxton Lane Campus can only build on the car park, so if they are not building up how do they intend to house the Hibbert Lane students. 

And so on.  And on, and on, and on......... 

You write that 'without knowledge the yes group is not credible', but it is MIA that lacks credibility because of its reliance on rumour, speculation, leaks, gossip, conspiracy theories and 2+2 = 5.   These are a poor substitute for facts and hard information.

[Miss Marple]

Tina I have decided that if you really really really want to know the facts that you should put the time and energy into finding out like I have had to do for everyday for nearly 5 months.   It would have been the easiest thing to do in passing over all the information for the YES campaign to digest but NO ! if you want to be taken seriously go out and investigate, because like I have said time and time again, the YES campaign will need all the evidence they can get hold of if this goes ahead.  You appear very savvy in use of the Internet start researching then we can compare notes.   If you want to be taken seriously and represent the YES people you owe it to them to become more active and seek out information so that they are armed with the facts and as to the reason a supermarket on Hibbert Lane will not disrupt any of our community, without knowledge the yes group is not credible.  As for single parents we have lots of single mothers who support MIA and their main intrest is for their children not BOGOF deals
Harsh I may seem but I am sick of your continued disrespect of people trying to protect their community, shops, house prices and noise and light pollution.  Debate Tina is the answer not trying to incite an already volatile situation

[tina]

The point I was trying to make, Tina, was that we all need to appreciate that th 'extremist' types act on their own behalf on both sides, as opposed to representing their campaigns. Nobody said it was you, and I certainly didn't call you 'thick' or say you couldn't read.

Often individuals' opinions are quoted on here as being representative of MIA, and time and again it has to be pointed out that individual opinions on the forum are just that.
On the flip side, when signs are stolen and the culprits are called scallies, it is treated as outrageous that this could be related to the opposing campaign.  If the post related to a faction of the group being scallies, there is no need for you to take personal umbrage.  I am in support of MIA, but if one on here expresses a personal opinion which you respond to, I don't take that as a personal sleight.

Everybody needs to stop with the sweeping generalisations, it is clear that some people act purely under their own steam and it is unfortunate that These people support either group.

In general, I think all - but particularly the 'yes' campaigners I have read, need to be less touchy.
When an opinion is expressed it is very easy for you to dismiss this as a class issue, inconsiderate snobbery.  This is unfair, as if people having money have no right to have an opinion. 
I have a young family, can't afford childare and between me, my wife and family members manage this.  I work most nights and go a day without sleep once a fortnight to ensure we can provide.
But I oppose a large scale supermarket on Hibbert Lane.
I work hard to live in a nice area, and I think whatever spin is put on it, a large supermarket would detract from this in terms of dominating the town centre, havinga detrimental effect on traffic and the infrastructure of the area being changed to accommodate this. 
I could easily work slightly less and try to save money, and to this end no doubt a supermarket would help... But don't insult me by trying to turn it into a class war and saying that your views are representative of working families.  They are not.  Nobody has an ingrained right to live anywhere, but my home is my sanctuary and I work extremely hard to have that.  My opinion is as much valid as anyone else's, and I am unhappy to hear some areas of the yes campaign acting as though they represent 'the unspoken majority'.

  In fact, it appears to me as a relative observer as I speak little, that most (but not all) MIA members are at least considered.  They at least do appear to be trying to get facts.  It appears to be a nmber of the yes campaign who simply do not listen to valid arguments raised within the no campaign, and too often dismiss information as speculation and conjecture without even considering the logic behind it or the efforts used to obtain it.

  As I understand it MIA supports a supermarket, but not a big one on Hibbert Lane.  Yes have made it clear that they want a supermarket, but when issues of infrastructure and devaluation relating to the large Hibbert Lane site are raised they are simply dismissed as being scaremongering. I've heard people saying 'the size of the site is just speculation and scaremongering'... Something like the size of the site, given from the planning department, is quite indisputable. 

Agreed you have thought out this post well, but I must correct you on the 'don't take things personal'...I do take it personal when some 'No' people are rude, insulting and disrespectful. I take offence when single mothers are singled out I am a single mother and these people don't know why I'm a single mother but judge all single mothers. So yes I will take it as personal. I also take it personal when friends of mine are attacked verbally for what a family member may have done/said. I do take it personal when people in council houses are told they have no right to a opinion. When people are called scallies. I took the removing of posters as personal because I was one of the yes group at the photoshoot and know that none of us  removed them.
Also to your last part. I do listen to MIA I spoke with them at the rally, and found 'some' of them to be polite and willing to listen to us as we listened to them. 'some' of them just love their own voice! but hey that's 'my opinion'
We was told that if we messaged a certain member of MIA she would forward on some 'facts' for us to read to see the full horrors of what CAMSFC are planning. To this date No such information has been forwarded on. If they really want us to know the true facts so we can therefore jump ship and join MIA then I'm sure if there really was some 'facts' I would of seen them by now.

While I'm on my soap box can I just add... that for me personally a supermarket would benefit me and members of my family. I understand the residents reasons for not wanting one on their doorstep, I have friends who live very close by to the college and I understand fully why they are against it. But on the other hand I would also understand why other residents would be against it if it was where MIA suggest it goes. So either way wherever a supermarket gets built it will unfortunately upset some people.
I can only look after me and my family. and its not about the price of beans as its been suggested today its about the reality of life.