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Author Topic: EU Referendum  (Read 91103 times)

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TomDowseMarpleSouth

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2016, 10:30:06 PM »
I really don't think that's the issue at all. I want to leave the EU and like so many other people I know who want to leave, I very much want to get on with other European nations (and I do consider the UK very much as a European nation and very much part of the future of Europe). To imply that people who support leaving the EU want conflict is I believe misleading. Like a vast number of those who will vote to leave, I consider myself pro-European. Europe is not the EU and the EU is not the true Europe and there is no contradiction between being pro-European and being anti-EU.

Couldn't agree more.

CllrGeoffAbell

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2016, 10:20:10 PM »
Hmm @Condate, I can accept what you say.  But how do you demonstrate you are pro-European?

Condate

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2016, 09:51:11 PM »

At this stage, it's fundamentally about "Do we want to get on with the other European nations?"  Or do we want conflict?


I really don't think that's the issue at all. I want to leave the EU and like so many other people I know who want to leave, I very much want to get on with other European nations (and I do consider the UK very much as a European nation and very much part of the future of Europe). To imply that people who support leaving the EU want conflict is I believe misleading. Like a vast number of those who will vote to leave, I consider myself pro-European. Europe is not the EU and the EU is not the true Europe and there is no contradiction between being pro-European and being anti-EU.

CllrGeoffAbell

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2016, 09:11:37 PM »
Dave - I agree with a lot of what you've said here.  One good thing about representative democracy is that those in power do need to look over their collective shoulders and be aware foolish decisions could remove them from their position.

I do like the use of judicious referenda.  In California you get to vote on policy as well as people at elections.  However, Switzerland only allowed women the vote in 1971.

So back to the EU.  This is what Franz said:

Quote
This referendum is about one issue. Do we want to be a member of a political, ever closer European Union or do we want to be a peaceful, free trading sovereign independent state?

I believe that this is the last chance we will get as a nation to leave. look at how far the EU has progressed in the past decades. Its only a matter of time before we get an EU army and elected president.

Sadly, that's not the question.  Surely the army would have happened already?  Who is spreading fear now?

The EU is an association of 28 countries that find it difficult to agree on most things.  Born out of the terrible conflict of WW2, the idea was that "nation should speak unto nation".  It's one of the few associations born out of peaceful co-operation that humankind has devised.

It is democratic (though could be more so, but that would mean an elected executive - and that would mean giving up national sovereignty), it's inexpensive (the UK spends 8 times as much on defence) and it's a force for good.

What do the Outies want?  A return to LSD?  Empire?

Churchill himself said in the middle of the war, ‘Hard as it is to say now... I look forward to a United States of Europe, in which the barriers between the nations will be greatly minimised and unrestricted travel will be possible.’


At this stage, it's fundamentally about "Do we want to get on with the other European nations?"  Or do we want conflict?

So I am for In.

But either way, there will probably be another referendum in 41 years time.  We do live in a democracy after all.

Dave

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2016, 01:11:00 PM »
One aspect of the EU referendum that is a local issue is the activity of our MP in that respect

It is hypocritical of him to imply on his website that his attitude towards the referendum is influenced by the outcome of Cameron’s negotiations regarding our future relationship with the EU. He was appearing on platforms with the likes of Farage and Heffer, the same platform as that graced by Galloway on other occasions, before the outcome of the renegotiations was known. He appears on that platform in his capacity as an MP, not as a private citizen. He is our MP. Does he have a mandate from the people he represents? As far as I am aware he does not.

The implication of this is that MPs should consult their electorate through a constituency referendum before they cast their vote on any issue in Parliament.  Can't see that working somehow, unless we abandon our representative democracy and switch to something more like what they do in Switzerland, where they seem to hold a referendum almost every weekend! 

alstan

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2016, 10:22:33 AM »
One aspect of the EU referendum that is a local issue is the activity of our MP in that respect

It is hypocritical of him to imply on his website that his attitude towards the referendum is influenced by the outcome of Cameron’s negotiations regarding our future relationship with the EU. He was appearing on platforms with the likes of Farage and Heffer, the same platform as that graced by Galloway on other occasions, before the outcome of the renegotiations was known. He appears on that platform in his capacity as an MP, not as a private citizen. He is our MP. Does he have a mandate from the people he represents? As far as I am aware he does not.

Mr Wragg’s website is headlined with a picture showing him getting chummy with Cameron. To a significant extent it is the work carried out by Cameron over the past ten years that has enabled people like Mr Wragg to achieve their political ambitions. Should I ever meet Mr Wragg I would be careful to avoid standing with my back to him.

The Brexit campaign is in some difficulty as all they can do is speculate but it is very unlikely to be the utopian land they seek to portray mainly because our future will be largely outside our control and will depend on the attitude of others, in particular the EU, but also the US, Commonwealth, etc, etc, etc.. One of the quickest developments is quite likely to be the end of the UK. The Scots will react with fury if they face being forced out of the EU by English votes. Sooner or later they will get the referendum that they will demand and they will vote for independence. They will probably be able to persuade the EU to maintain their membership and we will have a land border with the EU. No problem, Boris will post centurions on Hadrian’s Wall.

We would eventually lose our only nuclear base and probably send the rented weapons back to their owners. Would the UN want a non nuclear England as a permanent member of the Security Council? Probably not. Perhaps our seat would go to the USE, the United States of Europe.

Increased trade with Commonwealth countries will be difficult to achieve. Our closest friends, New Zealand, Australia, and Canada are all in the process of joining the Trans Pacific Partnership. China is the most important trading partner for New Zealand in several categories, second after Australia in others. UK does not even register and is presumably included in the figures for the EU which is well down the list. The UK on its own would be even further down.

It is likely that our most important trading partner would continue to be the EU and, presumably, EU regulations would apply (but we would have no say in the formulation of those regulations).

On the other hand we would, of course, be free to treat migrants as badly as we wanted to.

The Brexit campaign is stifled  by the problem that it cannot present facts as to the nature of Britain after exit. There aren’t any, which is perhaps why they seem to be resorting to abuse and whingeing about the Yes campaign.

A couple of months ago I would have argued for a “free trading sovereign independent state”. But not now. It is time to get real and ditch the idealism.

hatter76

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2016, 07:03:30 AM »
This referendum is about one issue. Do we want to be a member of a political, ever closer European Union or do we want to be a peaceful, free trading sovereign independent state?

I believe that this is the last chance we will get as a nation to leave. look at how far the EU has progressed in the past decades. Its only a matter of time before we get an EU army and elected president.

Let's get out whilst we can.

Dave

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2016, 01:26:13 AM »
Me too.  The EU is a frustratingly ineffective organisation, but what we need to do is stay with it and make it better.  Leaving will only make things worse.  And Cameron's 'renegotiations' are a trivial irrelevance.  The thing that matters most in Europe at the moment is dealing decently and humanely with the refugees from Syria and Iraq.  I am ashamed and embarrassed at the way we are treating these people.  This is an opportunity for the EU to prove why it is important for European countries to work together.  But Brexit is hardly going to improve that situation. 

JMC

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2016, 07:48:46 PM »
It is IN for me. Several reasons inc with this right wing government we need EU protection from things like scrapping the Human Rights Act.

Dave

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2016, 06:31:08 PM »
Agreed, Geoff. I love our MP's ironic suggestion that Boris Johnson is an asset to the 'leave' campaign!  ;)

CllrGeoffAbell

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2016, 01:20:37 PM »
Humour and irony alive and well in this thread already!  Good to see.

Re Hatter's question, I've been asking the question out there and "Don't know" has it at the moment.  Of those that do know, "In" is marginally ahead.

hatter76

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2016, 09:48:13 PM »
Tweet from local MP:

William Wragg MP ?@William_Wragg  ·

Great to have @BorisJohnson on board the Leave campaign. He's a real asset to make the positive case why we're better off out of the EU.




Dave

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2016, 08:26:57 PM »
I did hear (it has to be said from a most unreliable source) that Marple Civic Society has put forward a European Plan and that this plan if accepted by the EU will become enshrined in legislation and will have to be taken into consideration by every elector when casting their vote in June to stay/leave the EU.
:D :D :D

I'm with Simone - this section of the forum is called 'Local Issues', and I think we should decide to cast our votes depending on how the outcome will affect Marple.  The burning question is, will Brexit mean a reprieve for the 394 bus?


ringi

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2016, 04:51:04 PM »
No option is risk free, we are being asked to choose between two unknowns.    The deal to keep us in is very weak as it still leaves the EU being run by people that think political union is the reason for having the EU.

However I question how much real freedom we will have if we left, as all the trade agreement with the EU may be as bad as membership is.
I expect the outcome will be decided as much by who bothers to votes, as by what most people believe.

Condate

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2016, 08:28:13 AM »
Very  nice of the Prime Minister to choose my birthday for the referendum!