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Author Topic: What will happen to Labour and LibDems in 2016?  (Read 21366 times)

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GeoffAbell

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Re: What will happen to Labour and LibDems in 2016?
« Reply #94 on: March 01, 2016, 02:26:15 PM »
Motions to Stockport Council
Quote
Opposition to Govt Health Cuts
EU Referendum Franchise - Voting Age reduced to 16
Psychoactive Substances
Ethical Council Tax Collection Practices
Private Rented Sector Landlords
Trade Union Bill
Individual Electoral Registration
Housing and Planning Bill
Mental Health CHallenge
Rail Franchises
Greater Manchester Fire and Rescue Service Cuts

Thanks to Kenny for supplying these.

A lot of these motions are national in theme, and suggested by people well away from Stockport.  And we have a 10 o'clock cut-off, so some members do talk out motions.  This happened on the Psychoactive Substances Motion, which was a shame because we might have been able to do something different in Stockport, and all we were allowed at 10 o'clock was a vote: Yes/No/Abstain.  (This is the "legal highs" blanket ban that comes into effect in April).
Fire Service cuts was also local.  But the majority weren't.  And we tend to vote on party lines, even if we are not whipped.

I've witnessed motions on VAT Thresholds, Scottish Independence, Trident Missiles, a hurricane in St Louis, a mining accident in South America!! etc. etc.

It's all to do with party politicking and political posturing which sadly all Councils waste hours upon hours doing when they should be addressing local issues.

It is.

So my challenge is:  What would have a Motion on??  Speaking of which:


To the 394.

To me, it seems that this service is used by many, but used infrequently.  As a result it is not commercially viable.
As I have a voice on TfGM, I am trying to get a continuation of some service here.

I know that people across the politic divide are united to help.  As always, it comes down to money.

The news at the moment is that Derbyshire County Council are tendering for a replacement.

I'll keep you posted.  And thanks to the huge number of people who've contacted me directly.

Hoffnung

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Re: What will happen to Labour and LibDems in 2016?
« Reply #93 on: February 29, 2016, 12:03:44 PM »
I didn't say 'forced' charmed, cajoled, argued, call it what you will, the political term as you know is 'whipped,' but lets not take that literally. All I'm saying is that on every motion that you've sat through at the full Council meeting you've voted with the Conservative party and you will do the same in every forthcoming motion.

 Anyway back to the 394 bus.

I understand what you are saying about the budget meeting and you are probably right. A question in public question time  would not achieve much as these questions are forgotten as soon as the answer is given. I've got a suggestion which might help.

There is a council meeting on April 7th. In addition to this Councillor Geoff Abell who is a Marple Councillor is also a member of TfGM Executive and is also an Area Committee colleague of yours. If you could discuss it with him and between you propose and second a motion which has at its conclusion a letter from SMBC Chief Exec on behalf of the whole Council to both TfGM Executive  and the bus company it may carry some weight.

I do appreciate that the planned date for withdrawing of the service is 25th March and this may seem like shutting the stable door but it may urge interested parties to reconsider.             

CllrKennyBlair

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Re: What will happen to Labour and LibDems in 2016?
« Reply #92 on: February 26, 2016, 12:58:49 PM »
@Hoffnung I think you are getting confused, it was not a demand but a question. If you cannot or will not provide the data, i can only assume you have no actual evidence apart from a gut feeling. As I said, I cannot comment on others, but I have never been forced to vote in any way, which is the point you originally made and claimed you had evidence for. I will vote how I see fit based on the facts.
As for how I voted in the individual debates, I am sure you already have that information. But to be clear, I did not vote blindly based on party loyalty, I listened to the debates and made my decision accordingly. If this aligned 'with the party' as you state, it is not because I have been told to.
 
I agree with your comments on debating national issues, see my comments elsewhere on the forum.

Regarding the 394 Bus, I can certainly look into adding it to the Agenda, but as it is the Budget Council meeting, it is unlikely it will be added. (it is also unlikely I will be in attendance at the Full Council Meeting on Thursday as i will unfortunately be in Scotland). Would you like to propose the motion to debate? We can also ask questions of the Executive or TfGM representatives, which may be more appropriate or indeed you can even ask questions, as we have Public Question Time.

Hoffnung

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Re: What will happen to Labour and LibDems in 2016?
« Reply #91 on: February 26, 2016, 09:56:55 AM »
Councillor Kenny,

I think that you are getting a little confused with your demands. This is a community forum not the Supreme Court.

I think the best thing to do under the circumstances is to rely on the education and intelligence of the posters/readers on this site to gauge their own discernment on whether Councillors toe the party line or not. Or indeed if they engage in futile debates wherein they can have no impact.

I was aware of them but nevertheless thank you for listing your attended motions. Which way did you vote on them? With the party or against it?

You say that ...'5 could be said to have a local impact.' I expect that could be said of anything. It really is hard to work out what impact Stockport Councillors could have on these issues and what actually are 'Psychoactive Substances?' What actually were the consequences of Stockport Councillors debating such motions as 'The Trade Union Bill' or 'The Housing and Planning Bill?'
Did the government rescind them or alter them in any way.

Back to the 394 bus, which is a real local issue. Are you going to propose the motion at the next council meeting? Now that debate I really would appreciate.

marplerambler

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Re: What will happen to Labour and LibDems in 2016?
« Reply #90 on: February 25, 2016, 12:42:24 PM »
Late thought,

Why don't you propose at the next Council meeting that the full Council debates the proposed withdrawal of the 394 bus service and its actions and consequences. A local issue that is really important to local people.

In fact at the earliest opportunity, I am going to see what the proposed motions are, for the next Council meeting and post them on this site. Then people can judge for themselves how relevant they are.
I have read your reply but it contains no response to Hoffnung's question. Once again 'Why don't you propose at the next Council meeting that the full Council debates the proposed withdrawal of the 394 bus service and its actions and consequences?' There is a routine procedure for deadlines for motions but if deemed to be sufficiently important , topics can be added to the agenda. Prospective Conservative candidate John Bates is Campaigning online for a continuation of the service. Are you prepared to do the same?

salemoorgirl

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Re: What will happen to Labour and LibDems in 2016?
« Reply #89 on: February 25, 2016, 12:15:58 PM »
I worked for Councils (not Stockport) for many years and have sat through countless full Council meetings, many of them spending hours debating pointless motions that have got absolutely nothing to do with local Council business.

I've witnessed motions on VAT Thresholds, Scottish Independence, Trident Missiles, a hurricane in St Louis, a mining accident in South America!! etc. etc.

It's all to do with party politicking and political posturing which sadly all Councils waste hours upon hours doing when they should be addressing local issues.

CllrKennyBlair

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Re: What will happen to Labour and LibDems in 2016?
« Reply #88 on: February 25, 2016, 11:50:10 AM »
@Hoffnung next Council Meeting is the 3rd March, agenda is published and there are no motions to be debated.

Regarding your question on debates that don't concern Stockport, see my comments in earlier postings.

Regarding your statement about being deflected by the detail, the detail is important if your claims are to be substantiated. It was a genuine question as to where the info was as I trawled the Minutes too. The only time the votes are broken down is during Budget meetings. Otherwise, I cannot find a breakdown. If there is no breakdown, your claims cannot be substantiated.

I have sat through 5 full Council meetings. IN that time there have been 11 motions presented, of which 5 could be said to have a local impact. They are listed below for information.

Opposition to Govt Health Cuts
EU Referendum Franchise - Voting Age reduced to 16
Psychoactive Substances
Ethical Council Tax Collection Practices
Private Rented Sector Landlords
Trade Union Bill
Individual Electoral Registration
Housing and Planning Bill
Mental Health CHallenge
Rail Franchises
Greater Manchester Fire and Rescue Service Cuts

You have already stated that as far as you are concerned, we are whipped to tow the party line. I have told you this is incorrect as someone who has first hand experience of this, which you don't. I asked a genuine question as to where the data was but you will not share the data which you claim proves your assertion that we are whipped to tow the party line.  I ask again genuinely, please show me where the data is because I cannot find it.

Hoffnung

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Re: What will happen to Labour and LibDems in 2016?
« Reply #87 on: February 25, 2016, 10:45:01 AM »
Late thought,

Why don't you propose at the next Council meeting that the full Council debates the proposed withdrawal of the 394 bus service and its actions and consequences. A local issue that is really important to local people.

In fact at the earliest opportunity, I am going to see what the proposed motions are, for the next Council meeting and post them on this site. Then people can judge for themselves how relevant they are.   

Hoffnung

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Re: What will happen to Labour and LibDems in 2016?
« Reply #86 on: February 25, 2016, 10:38:07 AM »
@Hoffnung interesting stuff. Having looked into it myself, and having asked questions internally, be interested to know how you ascertain how the Councillors voted? I can't see anywhere that provides a breakdown of the Councillors votes, only a very broad statement (48 For, 12 Against). Be grateful if you could point out where the breakdown is located?
Thanks in advance.

Councillor Kenny,

Let's not allow ourselves to be deflected from the issue by being dragged down in the detail of the method. It was a tedious task anyway, I've got better things to do than explain my research methods and I would have thought that as a representing Councillor, so have you!

The fact of the matter as far as I am concerned is that Councillors almost always vote with the pre-determined party line.

If you don't wish to take my word for it, take your own. Ask yourself  how many motions you have sat through in full council and how many times you have voted against your decided upon party line. You may even wish to share your score with this.
forum, I'll leave that to you.

On a separate but not completely unconnected issue: Why does Stockport Council propose and debate motions that have absolutely no connection whatsoever to Stockport and which local Councillors can have no influence on whatsoever ?

 

CllrKennyBlair

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Re: What will happen to Labour and LibDems in 2016?
« Reply #85 on: February 24, 2016, 03:33:13 PM »
I've had a look /had someone look at the minutes of about 20 SMBC Full Council Meetings over the last three years. Every one had at least one proposed motion for debate and most had more than one.

Of all those motions I couldn't find one single example whereupon one single Councillor voted against his/her party.

@Hoffnung interesting stuff. Having looked into it myself, and having asked questions internally, be interested to know how you ascertain how the Councillors voted? I can't see anywhere that provides a breakdown of the Councillors votes, only a very broad statement (48 For, 12 Against). Be grateful if you could point out where the breakdown is located?
Thanks in advance.

simonesaffron

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Re: What will happen to Labour and LibDems in 2016?
« Reply #84 on: February 24, 2016, 10:54:12 AM »
Hoffnung makes some interesting points however to complain about a lack of discussion on local issues then ask Malcolm to explain his views on Rochdale isn't the most logical approach!

I think that asking somebody who is standing for office as a local Councillor and also making multi reference to Rochdale Council, questions about either or both is very logical and reasonable. I for one will be interested in Malcom's response.   

simonesaffron

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Re: What will happen to Labour and LibDems in 2016?
« Reply #83 on: February 24, 2016, 07:54:00 AM »
Hoffnung,

Thank you for finding the time to do the exercise, your efforts are appreciated. and your findings interesting.

simonesaffron

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Re: What will happen to Labour and LibDems in 2016?
« Reply #82 on: February 23, 2016, 05:28:24 PM »
These debates may not be relevant to you, but, they will certainly be relevant to the residents of Stockport whether at work or at home as well as the efficient running of the council, which i assume you agree our Councillors should be concerned with.

Congratulations on having the time to trawl the minutes, as someone who works full time it isn't something I can fit it, could you provide figures for the number of debates which you view to be relevant?



I took Hoffnung's post to say that it was the motions debating the issues that were irrelevant and not the actual issues themselves. Of course issues such as the Trade Union Bill are important to many but as Condate points out, Why are our councillors in Stockport debating it? This is something to be discussed at National Level. Shouldn't they be debating Stockport issues? What do they hope to achieve for the people of Stockport by debating "Multi National's Tax Avoidance?"


Condate

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Re: What will happen to Labour and LibDems in 2016?
« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2016, 01:34:41 PM »
These debates may not be relevant to you, but, they will certainly be relevant to the residents of Stockport whether at work or at home as well as the efficient running of the council, which i assume you agree our Councillors should be concerned with.

These debates appear to be on matters over which the council has no control and which are better discussed at national level. There is no reason to discuss them in the council. If the councillors have a strong view on these matters, then there are better places to make those views known and they should do so in their capacity as voters and not as councillors.

Andy

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Re: What will happen to Labour and LibDems in 2016?
« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2016, 01:06:02 PM »
I've had a look /had someone look at the minutes of about 20 SMBC Full Council Meetings over the last three years. Every one had at least one proposed motion for debate and most had more than one.

Of all those motions I couldn't find one single example whereupon one single Councillor voted against his/her party.

What also struck me in particular was the apparent irrelevance of these motions to the people of Stockport and also the total lack of influence that these  Councillors could have on the issues they were debating.

Some Examples of such debates were;

Northern Rail Station Staff.

Multinational Companies Tax Avoidance.

A Call on the National Media to Report on Peaceful Protests with Sensitivity.

The Trade Union Bill.

These debates may not be relevant to you, but, they will certainly be relevant to the residents of Stockport whether at work or at home as well as the efficient running of the council, which i assume you agree our Councillors should be concerned with.

Congratulations on having the time to trawl the minutes, as someone who works full time it isn't something I can fit it, could you provide figures for the number of debates which you view to be relevant?