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Archive => Archived Boards => Local Elections and Council Matters => Topic started by: Duke Fame on January 24, 2016, 11:09:40 PM
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Not any time soon, certainly, but some of us are old enough to remember when the old Liberal Party was down to even fewer MPs back in the 1960s and early 70s. Back then, none of us foresaw the Labour Party split that led to the rise of the SDP in the 1980s, and then the subsequent merger of the SDP and the Liberals to form the Lib Dems.
It will probably take something similar to revive the Lib Dems from their present decimated state. It could even happen within the present parliament, when the Tory Party breaks up following the EU referendum. ;)
What of Labour, they are going to implode in 2016, Lib dems must be able to bounce back.
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I don't favour any particular political party, but of all the parties, the Libdems have treated their own electorate with disdain. They've betrayed them in an unprecedented way and their ex supporters have now spoken. The party has lost 90% of its MPs and as each local election passes, the party comes out of it worse than when they went in. Between now and the next general election they face the prospect of gradual local council annihilation.
Where are the ordinary, hard working libdem councillors? At home and out of office. Where are the architects of the ill fated coalition? LORD Andrew Stunell, SIR Vince Cable, SIR Danny Alexander, that's where. How long before Nick Clegg sails off into European Baronetcy?
Locally, in 2016, the libdems will lose more seats in Stockport, they will certainly lose both Marple Seats.
As we all know veteran Councillors; Alexander & Candler are standing down at the forthcoming election, if either/both of you are reading this, I would say that you will be a great loss. What is being offered in their place by the libdems.
At the hustings in November for South Marple, the libdems couldn't find a candidate that had any credibility. In the end they were left with two and some in the party didn't want either of them.
Candidate One, had no connection to Marple or even Stockport. He lived in Manchester and worked in Leeds and London. To undermine his credibility even further, he was standing in both Marple South AND Marple North !
Candidate Two, is an ex councillor, in fact he is an ex Lord Mayor. The only issue here is that it has all been for the (wait for it) Labour Party! He has spent 20 plus years as a Labour councillor, now he's decided he is a Libdem.
The ex Labour Councillor won the nomination.
So who are our Marple libdem candidates in 2016?
Well, in Marple North, despite two experienced former councillors standing for the nomination the party voted for the unknown, Allen Malcolm, has anybody heard of him, does anybody know what he looks like. I've not met anybody yet that knows the answer to such questions.
And of course in South, we've got the ex Labour Lord Mayor.
You couldn't make it up.
The Libdems, as you say Duke, are going to 'bounce' but it won't be 'back.'
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And of course in South, we've got the ex Labour Lord Mayor.
Do you have any links or details to who this candidate is please @Hoffnung?
By the way, I've taken the liberty of breaking this out to a new thread and moving it to the 2016 elections board.
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We now see how much the libdems improved the last government, there are getting punished for doing what was best for the country, rather then what was best for themselves!
The two times I have written to my new MP, he has not responded with anymore then a “I can’t be brother to think about what you said” letter. That may have an effect on how I vote…
There is no risk of the SNP getting power in the local elections; therefore there is no need to avoid parities that may invite them into a government.
I don’t understand why local elections have people standing under national parties anyway and 90% of what is put out by the candidates are things they will have NO control over if they got in. Therefore the candidate that “talks” most about what they WILL be able to do, may get my vote regardless of their party.
But, any party that gets there voters out on the day can win, given how low the turnout is.
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We now see how much the libdems improved the last government, there are getting punished for doing what was best for the country, rather then what was best for themselves!
The two times I have written to my new MP, he has not responded with anymore then a “I can’t be brother to think about what you said” letter. That may have an effect on how I vote…
There is no risk of the SNP getting power in the local elections; therefore there is no need to avoid parities that may invite them into a government.
I don’t understand why local elections have people standing under national parties anyway and 90% of what is put out by the candidates are things they will have NO control over if they got in. Therefore the candidate that “talks” most about what they WILL be able to do, may get my vote regardless of their party.
But, any party that gets there voters out on the day can win, given how low the turnout is.
Well said Rini, the reason we have candidates under national party banners usually means they are trying to climb hte greasy pole of party politics and not really worth condering as being on a council
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Hello Admin,
Thanks for breaking this out, it is better for it.
I do know the name of this candidate but I don't think that it is appropriate for me to divulge, at least not in writing on this open forum. That should come from the lib dem membership and you won't be surprised to know that I am not one of them. Actually I am rather surprised that they haven't made an announcement, especially since they announced Allen Malcolm's candidacy before Christmas. Maybe they are hoping that if they leave it late nobody will notice that he is an ex Labour Mayor.
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Upon quick reflection, for those that are interested, try this.
Check out all the mayors from and including year 2000 to current one.
Obviously eliminate current mayor from the list then eliminate; current councillors, women mayors, conservative ones, Lib Dem ones, Heald Green Independents, Who is left - Bingo!
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Upon quick reflection, for those that are interested, try this.
Check out all the mayors from and including year 2000 to current one.
Obviously eliminate current mayor from the list then eliminate; current councillors, women mayors, conservative ones, Lib Dem ones, Heald Green Independents, Who is left - Bingo!
I'm not that sure it matters if someone has been in the Labour party before, people change their politics / see the light or get thoroughly appalled by the direction their party is going (which is fairly likely in this case).
That said, I agree with the point above that party politics should not really matter at a local level.
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Well, it would matter to me.
I like my local councillors to have political conviction and principle.
However, I think the point that is being made is about the party and not the candidate. The question is this, why would you field such a candidate anyway? The Lib Dems are already 628 votes behind, and have an almost impossible task, why make it even harder for yourself? Surely they could have found somebody from within their own ranks.
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The Conservatives got in in Romiley around 5 years ago. At the next local election the following year the Lib Dems got back in by a couple of votes, I am guessing its going to be a similar close election this time in both of the Marple wards.
In general I think its good for democracy for it to be close, it stops the councillors being complacent.
Local elections should be about local issues, unfortunately people often confuse them with national issues. In reality its about bin collection, street cleaning, parks, housing, planning, transport, schools etc.
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The Conservatives got in in Romiley around 5 years ago. At the next local election the following year the Lib Dems got back in by a couple of votes, I am guessing its going to be a similar close election this time in both of the Marple wards.
In general I think its good for democracy for it to be close, it stops the councillors being complacent.
Local elections should be about local issues, unfortunately people often confuse them with national issues. In reality its about bin collection, street cleaning, parks, housing, planning, transport, schools etc.
And in the next year or so, the real issue of how it's paid for and council tax.
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No Hatter,
Romiley and Marple are not similar in political colour. Romiley has had a mix of Conservative and Lib Dem Councillors for the last ten years. Marple (up until last year) has had a Lib Dem monopoly for the last 20 yrs. A change of Councillors is, as you say, good for democracy, but it isn't necessarily good for the constituents or for public services.
The political landscape in Stockport this year is very interesting. I was speaking with a Stockport Conservative councillor recently and he was telling me that the Conservatives are expecting to take a 'hatful' of seats from the Lib dems this year. It's easy to see why. For a variety of reasons the Lib Dems have an inordinate number of established 'name recognition' councillors who are not contesting their own seats. Apart from both Marple seats (which the Conservatives should easily win) there is also; Hazel Grove, Stepping Hill and Cheadle Hulme South.
In addition to these five seats there is also the seat in Offerton. This is a puzzle, it is a marginal which was retained last year by the LDs. However the incumbent who is up this year under an LD banner won the seat as a Labour Councillor, then last year switched to the LDs, so anything could happen. All the current Labour seats and the Conservative seats look fairly safe for both of them.
There is no doubt that the LD party in Stockport looks in big trouble.
The irony of it all, is that with the current party tallies on seats being the way they are. If the Conservatives take 5 seats off the LDs and Labour take Offerton then that makes Labour the biggest party in Stockport.
Even more interesting still, if the Conservatives win the last two remaining Marple seats in 2018, then that could put Conservative, Labour and LDs all with 20 seats each.
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Local elections should be about local issues, unfortunately people often confuse them with national issues. In reality its about bin collection, street cleaning, parks, housing, planning, transport, schools etc.
I agree completely. While some issues the council deals with do have an element of political philosophy involved and so different political parties will have differing views, for the most part, the decisions the council has to take have little if anything to do with party politics. Unfortunately, a great many people vote based on how they think a party is doing at a national level and this can and does lead to highly competent councillors of all parties losing their seats based on factors over which they have no control. For democracy to work, voters need to look at how the specific candidates either act as councillors, or would act if elected. If a candidate is an awful councillor or would make an awful councillor, it is not right that they get elected because people like what a party is doing nationally and conversely it is not right for a good councillor to lose their seat based on what his or her party is doing in parliament. Far better to get rid of party labels altogether at local level. Vote for candidates you know personally, or who have a record you know and admire, or who represent views you approve of.
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To reply to Hoffnung's post yesterday, I’ve spent a lot of my life having my name turned backwards and mis-spelt, so I’m used to it. You’ll find it’s on this forum and is the heading for at least one of the trails. My name is Malcolm Allan, and it’s been on the recent Lib Dem leaflets along with a picture. I’m like a lot of people who don’t like my picture but it is there, I’m, afraid. All residents also received a Christmas card with my name on it, and in my ward a handwritten letter from me. Inevitably, there will be people who won’t have heard of me, but I’ve lived in Marple for 30 years, played cricket here, been a club captain, a league rep and so on. I also supported my kid’s pastimes like most parents so I was treasurer of Mellor Brownies for a while. All my three daughters were educated in the area and at St Mary’s and Harrytown I was involved with the various events and fundraisers including being Father Christmas for a few years - but hopefully not recognised. We all went to church as a family, we have used the shops and facilities in Marple as long as we've been here, and I've swum at Marple baths every week , give or take, for the last 19 years. All of my daughters have worked in shops, pubs, cafes, supermarkets or restaurants in Marple/Marple Bridge which I’ve therefore supported, and I've followed them around when they've done other things such as one who helped the Carver. I was brought up in Romiley and I’m still in touch with primary school colleagues and secondary school colleagues who live here. I organised the Werneth Low Run for 15 years and my name was on all the leaflets so lots of runners know me and again I’m still see some of them. The chances are that me and Hoffnung will either know each other by sight, or have a common friend or a common interest or frequent the same place in the ward or something like that. I’ll add just that I have 18 years experience as an independent and voluntary chair of various aspects of the work of another Council in Greater Manchester.
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Wasn't the last local election heavily influenced by the general election, which produced a shift to the Conservatives. The Lib Dems nationally were unpopular during the 5 years of the coalition government. Remember Nick Clegg and tuition fees, they still had no problems winning in Marple. They will be back at some point just not sure when.
So where has the Lib Dem vote gone?
Some of the tactical voters who used to vote for them locally to keep the Tories out have gone back to Labour. This would explain the higher Labour vote at the last election.
Maybe some have stopped voting.
Have some switched to the Tories?
Another thing, UKIP. They have done OK in Marple the last few elections, they even polled 800 or so votes in Marple South at the time of the Euro elections. They would need to double their vote to win, which is unlikely but they are building up foundations. They could benefit from the European referendum momentum that will start building as the vote gets nearer. This could take votes of the Tories letting the Lib Dems back in.
I read on here talk about Marple Independents. Would this work? Would we get a better deal out of Stockport Council for Marple if they were focused just on our area?
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Wasn't the last local election heavily influenced by the general election, which produced a shift to the Conservatives. The Lib Dems nationally were unpopular during the 5 years of the coalition government. Remember Nick Clegg and tuition fees, they still had no problems winning in Marple. They will be back at some point just not sure when.
So where has the Lib Dem vote gone?
Some of the tactical voters who used to vote for them locally to keep the Tories out have gone back to Labour. This would explain the higher Labour vote at the last election.
Maybe some have stopped voting.
Have some switched to the Tories?
Another thing, UKIP. They have done OK in Marple the last few elections, they even polled 800 or so votes in Marple South at the time of the Euro elections. They would need to double their vote to win, which is unlikely but they are building up foundations. They could benefit from the European referendum momentum that will start building as the vote gets nearer. This could take votes of the Tories letting the Lib Dems back in.
I read on here talk about Marple Independents. Would this work? Would we get a better deal out of Stockport Council for Marple if they were focused just on our area?
Whats the better deal for Marple explain .
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Whats the better deal for Marple explain .
You would get candidates that were only focused on the needs of Marple not Stockport as a whole or party interests. So for example, if the Council wants to invest £5 million on upgrading Stockport markets, Marple Independents could say OK but in return for our block 6 votes we want x£ to invest in Marple. Policies that had no impact on Marple residents would be rejected without a local payback. If there was no majority on the Council you would hold the balance of power and team up with whoever promised you the most in return.
You would have to pursue populist policies and not propose anything controversial for it to hold together.
Its popular in Heald Green, so why not here? How does it operate there?
On a bigger scale it works in Scotland?
I am only discussing the idea, I'm not necessarily advocating it, what do others think?
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Given that Manchester is better then Stockport for shopping from Marple. Can it every benefit us when money is spend on central Stockport?
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I agree with most things that are being said on this thread about local councillors.
Local councillors should focus on local issues, bins, roads, parks, traffic, public realm and in our case anything to do with Marple. When they are members of a political party they get dragged down with party issues, borough issues even national issues.
Hatter, you make a good case for an Independent candidates. I for one, would certainly support one. I did hear some talk, about there being one, in Marple North this year, but so far it has come to nothing.
Does anybody know who the candidates are in Marple, I know we've got John and Malcolm in North but who else is standing and who is this ex mayor that Hoffnung is referring to? Surely that can't be true, an ex Labour Mayor standing for the Lib Dems !
Are you making this up Hoffnung ?
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You would get candidates that were only focused on the needs of Marple not Stockport as a whole or party interests. So for example, if the Council wants to invest £5 million on upgrading Stockport markets, Marple Independents could say OK but in return for our block 6 votes we want x£ to invest in Marple. Policies that had no impact on Marple residents would be rejected without a local payback. If there was no majority on the Council you would hold the balance of power and team up with whoever promised you the most in return.
You would have to pursue populist policies and not propose anything controversial for it to hold together.
Its popular in Heald Green, so why not here? How does it operate there?
On a bigger scale it works in Scotland?
I am only discussing the idea, I'm not necessarily advocating it, what do others think?
I don't think a councillor can or should focus purely on his own constituency, in this case, the quality of Stockport as a whole has an influence on Marple and any other conurbation. However, I agree with non-party politics. I watch a few of the online debates and much of the waffle from party councillors (usually Labour) is an attempt to score party political points on national issues which is really just the individual councillor trying to get themselves noticed within the party.
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Wasn't the last local election heavily influenced by the general election, which produced a shift to the Conservatives. The Lib Dems nationally were unpopular during the 5 years of the coalition government. Remember Nick Clegg and tuition fees, they still had no problems winning in Marple. They will be back at some point just not sure when.
So where has the Lib Dem vote gone?
Some of the tactical voters who used to vote for them locally to keep the Tories out have gone back to Labour. This would explain the higher Labour vote at the last election.
Maybe some have stopped voting.
Have some switched to the Tories?
I think there is a lot in that. In the General Election, we had Michael Taylor who did a pretty good job of appearing normal and electable, the fact Michael's politics appears to be closer to the centre than most Labour candidates, he managed to get some LD votes and when both elections are around the same time, many voters can be swayed in hte local elections as well as the GE.
For the left-wing voter, they appeared to return to labour having fallen for the spin that LD's let them down.
For me, whilst I have tended to vote LD, I wasn't impressed by the GE candidate adn having watched a lot of the council debate online, I've been more impressed by the Tories than LD's so took my vote to the blue half in both elections. Had we have had an Indy, that would have made me think again.
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Duke,
I haven't seen anybody suggest that a local councillor should concentrate on his/her ward to the exclusion of everything else. So why respond to something that hasn't been suggested ?
Obviously borough issues can effect the wards, they don't exist in vacuums. What I'm saying is that a local councillor should be primarily concerned with what goes on in his ward in preference to what goes on elsewhere. I have also watched some online council debates and some of the issues debated by our councillors had nothing to do with anything that any of those councillors could influence, one way or another. Contradictory to your opinion Duke (welcome back by the way) I thought most of the waffle was initiated by and came from the Conservatives.
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I read the Cons candidate for Marple South is a young lad called Tom Dowse.
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I read the Cons candidate for Marple South is a young lad called Tom Dowse.
Funnily enough Tom has just registered for an account on the forum, so welcome @TomDowseMarpleSouth, we look forward to hearing from you.
The mysterious LD candidate that @Hoffnung hinted at must be former mayor and former Labour Councillor Colin Macalister, whose photo was in the most recent LibDem newsletter with Shan Alexander. I haven't seen anything that actually declares this though, so we could do with confirmation that he's standing.
I can't find any information about other candidates at the moment except a contacts page that suggests Janet Glover is the Labour candidate for Marple South. It isn't clear if this is current information or some kind of left-over from a previous election.
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Hello Malcolm,
Thank you for response.
Apologies for transposing your name. It was a careless mistake of mine, I didn't do it on purpose and it wasn't meant to be disrespectful in any way. I too have a name that lends itself to being mucked about with, so I have some understanding of the situation.
I'm not a member of the Liberal Democrats so I haven't seen any of their literature with your photo on. On the subject of political literature,we were bombarded with literature from all parties during last year's election and the lib dems were the worst culprits, by a mile, with every leaflet saying the same thing. Mine just went straight from letter box to bin. No wonder you were hammered, you bored people that much they voted against you, if only to stop the literature.
On the subject of photos. John, Kenny and Geoff have all posted a photo recently on this website so it must be fairly easy to do, I'm sure Admin would help you with it if you asked. I don't doubt your Marple credentials nor you yourself in any way. My problem is with political parties in general and with the Lib Dems in particular. I think that I've made my views clear about them in a previous post. What I haven't said previously is that IMO, the Lib Dems by their actions in joining the coalition and conducting themselves the way they did whilst they were in it, have irreparably damaged democracy in this country by bringing about the ruin of their own party. If as a political you can't even preserve your own existence, then what is the point and what can you do?
Very little if you're dead.
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Hello Malcolm,
Thank you for response.
Apologies for transposing your name. It was a careless mistake of mine, I didn't do it on purpose and it wasn't meant to be disrespectful in any way. I too have a name that lends itself to being mucked about with, so I have some understanding of the situation.
I'm not a member of the Liberal Democrats so I haven't seen any of their literature with your photo on. On the subject of political literature,we were bombarded with literature from all parties during last year's election and the lib dems were the worst culprits, by a mile, with every leaflet saying the same thing. Mine just went straight from letter box to bin. No wonder you were hammered, you bored people that much they voted against you, if only to stop the literature.
On the subject of photos. John, Kenny and Geoff have all posted a photo recently on this website so it must be fairly easy to do, I'm sure Admin would help you with it if you asked. I don't doubt your Marple credentials nor you yourself in any way. My problem is with political parties in general and with the Lib Dems in particular. I think that I've made my views clear about them in a previous post. What I haven't said previously is that IMO, the Lib Dems by their actions in joining the coalition and conducting themselves the way they did whilst they were in it, have irreparably damaged democracy in this country by bringing about the ruin of their own party. If as a political you can't even preserve your own existence, then what is the point and what can you do?
Very little if you're dead.
I can't understand that Hoff. "the Lib Dems by their actions in joining the coalition and conducting themselves the way they did whilst they were in it, have irreparably damaged democracy in this country by bringing about the ruin of their own party."
I voted Lib Dem in the previous election and I knew that the best I could hope for in voting for the 3rd party was coalition. I was thrilled they got into government and had a say, that is the best the voter can expect.
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I can't understand that Hoff. "the Lib Dems by their actions in joining the coalition and conducting themselves the way they did whilst they were in it, have irreparably damaged democracy in this country by bringing about the ruin of their own party."
I voted Lib Dem in the previous election and I knew that the best I could hope for in voting for the 3rd party was coalition. I was thrilled they got into government and had a say, that is the best the voter can expect.
I think the point is that coalitions are by their nature anti-democratic. A candidate must be able to say to the electorate what he or she will always vote for and what they will always vote against. They should then do just that. Simply trying to influence policies and voting for thing you know are wrong, just so you can get other MPs from another party to vote for things you want, even though they oppose it in principle is not democracy. Democracy must mean voting as you believe, even if you know you won't win. Any MP or party which joins a coalition and supports things they oppose, just to have a say in government is an enemy of democracy.
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Two elections ago I was looking forward to a future LibDem government in 2015. Labour had died and the Conservatives would destroy the moral fabric of the country by selling off the NHS and public sector, denying the disabled the dignity and security of a basic income with a roof over their heads. The message was there through my door 'Labour cannot win here you must vote Libdem to keep out the Tories' so I voted Stunnell as I had done for the preceding 12 years. I expected the Lib Dems to hold the balance of power, to vote for or against every bill on its merits and effectively prevent a swing to Conservatism. Andrew Stunnell then immediately helped implement the coalition, sold out the people of Marple and eventually got his knighthood. He did not just conform to the demands of his party to vote Conservative - he implemented the coalition. This was the ultimate betrayal which will never be forgiven by many in Hazel Grove & Marple. I shall never vote for them again.
The sad thing was that the Libdems had six terrific local councillors, all of whom worked incredibly hard for Marple who were then expected to implement the LibDem/Conservative cuts - the greatest tragedy is that they did not resist by continuing to fight for the people of Marple as independent councillors. They had been betrayed by their party and by their MP who had decided to follow the Tory Whip - they had every right to feel betrayed and to stand for the people of Marple as independents fighting for the people of Marple.
The LibDems condemned themselves to defeat and obscurity by ignoring the main wish of those who elected then to prevent any return of the Tories. In the space of five years their position changed from the strong possibility of being the majority party in the UK to political has-beens.
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No Duke,
3rd party coalition was/is not the best the voter can expect. It is only the best you can expect, if as a party you have self-seeking leaders who have an egomaniacal hunger for government minister's shiny car syndrome. If the Lib Dems had resisted coalition overtures, then they would have had 90/100 MPs now and who knows how many after the next election?
Condate/Rambler, absolutely tremendous posts.
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Simone,
I promise you, I am not making this up about the ex labour mayor standing as a Lib dem councillor. It is just that it is really not my place to name names.
If you really want to know then why don't you ask Malcolm or Geoff they were both at the hustings when he was elected as the candidate.
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Whilst people are throwing names into the ring on this topic, I live around the corner from my sister who observed a delivery of Xmas cards on behalf of the Libs Dems from the former Labour Mayor of Stockport, Colin MacAlister!
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Informed and interesting debate here as often happens!
A few points.
Many parish councils have independents, and, as has been stated, the Rate Payers of Heald Green are not mainstream. I think they were started in the 1920s!
having watched a lot of the council debate online,
You brave man.
Hoffnung, I am glad you know about Lib Dem hustings - do you know about the other parties' hustings too?
We belong to parties so you basically know our core values but at local level it IS about actions.
I will tell anyone who wants to know, details of how councils work and what councillors do. As to swapping parties, Offerton's Cllr Laura Booth was the last to swap and came to us from Labour. But in the 10 years I've been interested in politics, we have had many "crossings" of the floor, all ways. And yes, Colin was Labour years ago and was a mayor, but has had a period of non-politics. And is now our candidate in Marple South.
Lib Dems (I hope) are about practical policies, serving the community and getting things done. And we did lose votes in the general election - perhaps we were a protest party and you cannot be as much of a protest whilst in government! But we still hold power in Stockport. One of our jobs is to implement government cuts to finance, yet still protecting vulnerable people. Even George Osborne has asked us to put up tax this year. Never popular, but he's asking Stockport residents to do it rather than us getting money from the Westminster.
Finally, it's actually nice being on a blog with your own name. That's transparency. I am lucky enough to know a few who blog here, but I probably wouldn't use my name except that I am a councillor.
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Hello Geoff,
Your openness and your contributions on this forum are appreciated, certainly by me and I'm sure by many others.
I don't know about the hustings of other parties. I was told about the LD's by an LD activist who voted at them. He was pretty disappointed at the way the south Marple
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Thanks Hoffnung.
My pleasure.
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I'll continue...
He told me that he was disappointed in the way the Sth Marple Hustings in particular were conducted. That of course is his opinion and he is entitled to it.
My question to you as a LD is this: Surely these local elections in Marple are going to be difficult enough for the Libdems? Why make them even harder, by selecting an unknown to stand in one and an ex labour mayor to stand in another. Basically,in a nutshell and on the one hand you are asking the people of Marple to select the LDs to represent them locally and politically whilst on the other hand, you are demonstrating by your candidate selection, to the people of Marple, that you have no political judgement.
Would you not agree.
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5 people wanted to be our candidate for Marple North and, on the night, the best person probably won.
He's knowledgeable, articulate and listens. I think we in Marple could do a lot worse than have Malcolm Allan as a councillor.
On Wed, all 3 Marple N councillors are getting together to try and improve parking in Marple. I see that as positive. (2 LDs and 1 (new) Con)
Everyone has to start somewhere.
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Geoff,
I am sure all five of them were as articulate as each other and I'm sure all five of them are good listeners. As for being 'knowledgeable,' with two former councillors standing, I doubt that Malcolm was as knowledgable as either of them. In fact we have yet to know what
My question is about party political judgement. Why have you chosen a complete unknown in one ward and an ex labour mayor in another? Are you trying to commit political suicide in Marple. It is no wonder that my lib dem activist friend is disappointed.
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Sorry Geoff,
I'm having technical difficulties...we have yet to know what Malcolm's political knowledge is. As far as I'm aware he has not yet ventured a political opinion. He has not joined in any of the debates on this forum as John Bates, Councillor Kenny and you yourself have. It has to be said that John Bates as a candidate has an informed opinion about Tram/Train strategy in Marple whereas Malcolm as of yet has no view on it. We don't need a councillor with NO views.
Malcolm has told us that he plays cricket and was involved with the brownies and something about some council run charity. All very commendable, what exactly was this charity and what exactly does Malcolm do these days?
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I'll continue...
He told me that he was disappointed in the way the Sth Marple Hustings in particular were conducted. That of course is his opinion and he is entitled to it.
My question to you as a LD is this: Surely these local elections in Marple are going to be difficult enough for the Libdems? Why make them even harder, by selecting an unknown to stand in one and an ex labour mayor to stand in another. Basically,in a nutshell and on the one hand you are asking the people of Marple to select the LDs to represent them locally and politically whilst on the other hand, you are demonstrating by your candidate selection, to the people of Marple, that you have no political judgement.
Would you not agree.
Does the Lib Dem ex Labour candidate in Marple South have any local connection?
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It's a question well asked Hatter and he does, he lives in the ward and he is a married man with kids who go to the local schools and that's all good.
Apparently the only other candidate had no connection to Marple whatsoeverand according to my friend should never have stood. I'm not really criticising the candidates as individuals, I'm sure at worst they are only doing there best. My criticism and my libdem activist friend's criticism is towards the local party. To me it seems that local libdem leadership is treating the Marple electorate with the same disdain that libdem national leadership treated the national electorate with.
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The Conservatives got in in Romiley around 5 years ago. At the next local election the following year the Lib Dems got back in by a couple of votes, I am guessing its going to be a similar close election this time in both of the Marple wards.
In general I think its good for democracy for it to be close, it stops the councillors being complacent.
Local elections should be about local issues, unfortunately people often confuse them with national issues. In reality its about bin collection, street cleaning, parks, housing, planning, transport, schools etc.
I agree. Clean competition is very healthy for local democracy. Also, there is no need for things to get personal. I thought it was brilliant that William Wragg MP took the Labour party candidate Michael Taylor and his family on a tour of the commons a few weeks after he was elected!
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On Wed, all 3 Marple N councillors are getting together to try and improve parking in Marple. I see that as positive. (2 LDs and 1 (new) Con)
As Geoff says here, we are all putting ourselves forward with a view to improve things locally. We may (and will) disagree at times on how, but there is a willingness to work together as well, which we all need to do if things are to be improved.
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Geoff,
I am sure all five of them were as articulate as each other and I'm sure all five of them are good listeners. As for being 'knowledgeable,' with two former councillors standing, I doubt that Malcolm was as knowledgable as either of them. In fact we have yet to know what
My question is about party political judgement. Why have you chosen a complete unknown in one ward and an ex labour mayor in another? Are you trying to commit political suicide in Marple. It is no wonder that my lib dem activist friend is disappointed.
I think you have a bone and are refusing to drop it Hoffnung.
Why is it a problem for an 'unknown' to throw their hat in the ring. There are a good few of the electorate who would like to limit the number of terms any councillor completes and the need for fresh ideas is important. Look at your party, had you not had the fresh ideas of Blair and Mandelson, you'd never have seen government.
As for changing parties, I think a lot of people had socialist ideals when they were younger but you grow out of it when you see the real world.
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We all have those Duke,
In fact following your own postings over the years, I think that you have a skeleton full of them.
I personally am not against political 'unknowns,' I didn't say that I was, although I am against political 'unknowings,' which is what we appear to have. What I was challenging was the political judgement of a party which is facing extinction in fielding an 'unknown unknowing' and expecting us to vote for them.
Furthermore, I don't know what I've said to give you the impression that Labour is my party, the last time I supported them in any way, Thatcher was Prime Minister..
As for having 'socialist ideals' as a young person for a short time, well that's natural, I guess. But we are not talking about second year students, are we? We are talking here about 60 years plus men who have held political office for umpteen years. Surely you can see the difference.
I think I've said before, what I would like to see, at least locally in Marple, are some independent councillors who are not bound by party whips and who above all else would have the interests of Marple and not the interests of their party at the forefront of their minds. Surely you would support that too, instead of the same ole, same ole.
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@Hoffnung you make some startling assumptions about Councillors and candidates with regards to being whipped by their party and the party they support. I cannot speak for other Councillors or candidates but first and foremost I stood to represent the people of Marple South and to try to make a difference. I stood as a Conservative candidate as the party aligns closest to my belief systems than either Labour or Lib Dems or any other political party. I have not been whipped to vote one way or the other either in local issues or in full Council. I don't agree with everything the Conservative party states, or Labour or Lib Dem and will voice my opinion accordingly. A good idea is a good idea wherever it comes from.
You mention independent Councillors. The costs of standing for Councillor are not insignificant and would need some financial support. Does this make them independent or do you just mean independent from current political parties? You seem to be very vocal on issues and would perhaps make a good Councillor. Will you put your name forward?
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Cllr Kenny,
These are not 'startling assumptions,' these are facts and they are quite easy to substantiate. Let us just use Stockport as an example.
How many times when debating various motions over (let's say) the last five years, do you think any councillor (all parties) has voted against his/her party? Leaving the Ratepayers Party out of the equation there are three main parties in Stockport made up of 60 Councillors, if they debate one motion at each Full Council Meeting and they have 10 meetings a year, let's call that 50 motions over the period. You would think at least one councillor over 50 different motions across three different parties would hold a different view to his/her party on at least one occasion. Go on, tell me who it was when it was and what was the motion ? I won't hold my breath waiting for your answer.
What are these not insignificant costs you refer to ? Do you mean standing for council or running an election campaign?
Of course I'm 'vocal,' It is a community forum, what is the point of coming on it if you have nothing to say?
I don't doubt your own motives in standing as you've outlined them in any way, but I think that your political naivety is showing through a little in relation to whipping and the party line
As for that old one about putting my own name forward. I am under no illusions here. I would make a very poor councillor, so I've no intentions of even attempting to inflict myself on the people of Marple
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@Hoffnung thanks for your response. I may be politically naive, but is that not what you want? People who are atypical 'politicians'. I have my own mind and I will vote how I see fit, not how I am told to, I am not at school.
Regards the not so insignificant costs I mean running an election campaign. You can put your name on the register quite easily and for little cost, but what's the point if you can't afford to run a campaign and get your name out there to be known to the electorate for them to vote for you.
As for your point on Council motions, I am amazed you refer to them. Certainly of all the motions I have been involved with, these have been debates on national issues with a tinge of localism thrown in. One of my main criticisms of this part of the Council meeting is the fact that we don't debate real local issues / motions. We know the national issues will have an impact on the people of Stockport but in reality what can we as Councillors do to change these. I will get involved in the debates, but we should be debating real local issues that we can have a direct impact on. Not issues where we resolve to write to someone to express our unhappiness or whatever.
You could also argue that there have been a number of 'defections' from one party to another, across all parties and this is an expression of different views.
You want Councillors who represent and work for the benefit of Marple Area. You have had two Marple Councillors on the Executive for I dont know how long and what benefit has this brought Marple? I nor my colleague have in our short time been whipped to vote in a certain way at all and more particularly at Marple Area Committee. I support your statement that councillors should not be bound by party whips and who above all else would have the interests of Marple Area and not the interests of their party at the forefront of their minds. I believe you have that already, certainly as far as I am concerned (other Councillors and candidates can post their own views). It may be that we disagree on what we believe is best for Marple Area or the way we go about doing things.
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@Hoffnung you make some startling assumptions about Councillors and candidates with regards to being whipped by their party and the party they support. I cannot speak for other Councillors or candidates but first and foremost I stood to represent the people of Marple South and to try to make a difference. I stood as a Conservative candidate as the party aligns closest to my belief systems than either Labour or Lib Dems or any other political party. I have not been whipped to vote one way or the other either in local issues or in full Council. I don't agree with everything the Conservative party states, or Labour or Lib Dem and will voice my opinion accordingly. A good idea is a good idea wherever it comes from.
You mention independent Councillors. The costs of standing for Councillor are not insignificant and would need some financial support. Does this make them independent or do you just mean independent from current political parties? You seem to be very vocal on issues and would perhaps make a good Councillor. Will you put your name forward?
YES come on Hoffnung give it a go .
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Remember that most work councilors do is never discussed in public, it is the day to day task of holding the council staff to account by making the staff believe they are being checked up on.
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I have not been whipped to vote one way or the other either in local issues or in full Council. I don't agree with everything the Conservative party states, or Labour or Lib Dem and will voice my opinion accordingly. A good idea is a good idea wherever it comes from.
One of my main criticisms of this part of the Council meeting is the fact that we don't debate real local issues / motions.
There are 2 things we tend to vote on in the council chamber - motions which are often supplied by the opposition (i.e. not Lib Dems) which tend to be on national issues; and the budget. The latter is quite important, as we have to have (by law) a balanced budget, and cannot borrow for day-to-day spending, unlike, say, the government or the NHS.
Unlike parliament, there is no 3-line whip. Cannot speak for other parties, but we discuss things in Group Meetings and sometimes agree a line. But there is no sanction against a councillor who votes against a particular issue. I know. I'm a whip.
So I am in the unusual position of agreeing with Kenny on his above statements.
Trust me, many Conservative-government ideas do not sit well with me. Recent ideas to sell off social sector housing whilst reducing rents will mean less building when we have a housing shortage. Stopping all inshore wind farm developments. Cutting the preventative health budget halfway through the financial year was unpredictable and foolish. But as Kenny says, "a good idea is a good idea": HS3, Northern Powerhouse and devolution to local government in a number of areas is both brave and good.
I work long hours as a councillor. Others (including Conservative Kenny Blair and LibDem Sue Ingham, both in Marple South) have day jobs too. It's not for the faint-hearted.
But I am transparent and I am your representative. I will answer any question where I can.
And I urge you all to come to the next Marple Area Cmte on Wed 10th Feb. We all hope to be around at 5:30pm for an informal chat and later will discuss Parking in Marple in a new, hopefully-inclusive way.
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I think that I've already answered that one Amazon.
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Cllrs; Kenny, Geoff,
There is lot in your posts. I don't think that I can respond to all of it.
I agree with much of what you say but the fact of the matter is that the Full Council Meeting uses much of its time, debating pointless motions that are brought forward for party political reasons. That is all I'm trying to say.
Cllr Kenny, let's present the facts on 'defections.' In the last 5 years there have been 3. Cllrs; David White (LD to Lab) John Smith (LD to Con) & Laura Booth ( Lab to LD). Both David & John stood down before their next elections and Laura cited "bullying" in her local party (it was in the local press)as her reason for defection. I don't know what you are citing these as examples of but none of the three seem to be points of political principle.
We all three of us know that before any council meeting (and I don't just mean Full Council ) a pre meeting is held and a party line is agreed and woe betide any councillor that goes against it.
As for the two Marple Executive Councillors that you refer to, at one time we had three. What good did it do for Marple you say. That's a hard question to answer as we don't know what would have happened to Marple if they hadn't been there. I also suspect that you wouldn't be asking it if they weren't LibDems. You see party politics again.
All the above only reinforces my view that we should have some independent councillors, which is all I have been saying.
Geoff, I agree that being a Councillor is not for the 'faint hearted.' However I disagree with your seeming acceptance that councillors can discharge their duties to their constituents whilst having other full time occupations.
I didn't come onto this forum to talk about my own background but is extensive in local government, I have worked with many councillors over the years and I would say without a doubt it is impossible to reconcile being an active councillor with being a full time employee for somebody else. You can't be in two places at once - simple as that.
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@Hoffnung - yes, I'd find it difficult to have a full-time job too, but it's possible and not for me to judge.
I would like to hear (with your insight - I mean that!) what you think makes a good councillor now that you are free to speak your mind.
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@Hoffnung suggest you check your facts in relation to defections. 3 Lib Dem Concillors defected to Labour in protest at the decision to enter coalition. Patrick Macauley defected from Lab to Lib Dem. The reason I raise it is that you state people are whipped to toe the party line. As I said, I have never been told how to vote or been punished for voting against. There are meetings before full Council meetings (I don't have meetings before Marple Area Committee or Health & Wellbeing Scrutiny) to discuss the motions, but as I said, if I don't agree with an item I will vote accordingly. I can't speak for other Councillors.
As for the old chestnut about having a full time job and being a Councillor, I have answered that elsewhere on this forum. I manage just fine and is a combination of effective time management, a flexible employer, a very understanding family and modern technology. When I was in Germany this week, I was informed about the fly tipping on Middlewood. I managed to contact Council Officers all the way from Germany and advise them about this and arrange for it to get moved. How is that letting my constituents down?
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Sorry Geoff,
I'm having technical difficulties...we have yet to know what Malcolm's political knowledge is.
Malcolm has told us that he plays cricket and was involved with the brownies and something about some council run charity. All very commendable, what exactly was this charity and what exactly does Malcolm do these days?
Thanks for your kind comments – I’m not the least bit offended about the name mix up.
You asked about my experience. I can tell you about my involvement in local Government, although I can add I worked in Central Government in various posts in my early career which included writing briefs and parliamentary answers for ministers, but this wasn’t party political, as Civil Servants were “apolitical” always.
My involvement in local government started in the area where my work was based in Rochdale. I got involved via my Company in economic development and was asked by the Council to do various things arising from that. I was on the Development Agency Board that attracted new investment into Middleton which revitalised the town centre, including building the Middleton Arena. We were also working on the Rochdale Town Centre as a major project which has now come to fruition.
I developed what was regarded as an innovative childcare scheme with the Council and that lead to me being involved in what was the Children’s’ Partnership and eventually became the Children’s’ Trust. This was the “Children’s Schools and Families” area that came under the Local and National Government Department of the same name. I chaired the Trust from formation and at one stage our Trust was consulted by the Government of the day as one of 6 which were regarded as doing something well which was different. At the time I was the only Independent Chair in the Country. The Trust was a body made up of Councillors of all parties, Council Officers, Social Services, Head teachers, Police, NHS and the voluntary sector.
The charity work you refer to was another role where Rochdale were successful in a bid for £2.7m of lottery funding for an architectural and heritage project focussed on restoring the buildings of local architect Edgar Wood, a key figure in the Arts and Crafts movement. This Board which I chair is again made up of local councillors, community and business representatives. We have tangible evidence for our work and have attracted a large number of visitors to the area by linking with other heritage attractions.
I was also the Chair of the Rochdale Council Remuneration Panel and a member from its inception when local government was re-organised into its “cabinet” or “executive” system. All Councils set up independent panels to review what councillors were paid as an allowance and all other related areas such as use of IT equipment and so on. The work we did involved surveying councillors directly on their activities and how they spent their time. We did this in a paper survey but also by talking to councillors. The Panel took formal representations from the Party Leaders in the Council. We developed our own formula for this which we re-examined over the years. We presented our recommendations back to the Party leaders and these went to Council for decisions. This gave me what I feel was a very good insight into the work of Local Councillors, and the workings of council bodies.
None of this was experience as a Councillor but as has been said already, everyone starts with no experience. I think I’ve got some relevant background that gives me a better start.
I recently stopped full time work and hence my keenness to get involved in the area where I live.
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We all have those Duke,
In fact following your own postings over the years, I think that you have a skeleton full of them.
I personally am not against political 'unknowns,' I didn't say that I was, although I am against political 'unknowings,' which is what we appear to have. What I was challenging was the political judgement of a party which is facing extinction in fielding an 'unknown unknowing' and expecting us to vote for them.
Furthermore, I don't know what I've said to give you the impression that Labour is my party, the last time I supported them in any way, Thatcher was Prime Minister..
As for having 'socialist ideals' as a young person for a short time, well that's natural, I guess. But we are not talking about second year students, are we? We are talking here about 60 years plus men who have held political office for umpteen years. Surely you can see the difference.
I think I've said before, what I would like to see, at least locally in Marple, are some independent councillors who are not bound by party whips and who above all else would have the interests of Marple and not the interests of their party at the forefront of their minds. Surely you would support that too, instead of the same ole, same ole.
I agree, id prefer to see Indy's standing or at least the 'ratepayers type groups standing.
the problem with local authorities and uk local government is its all become too big. I'd like to see someone take the council piece by piece and dismantle it. look at every job, every councillor and decide if they are really needed. Do we really need 8 people responsible for Stockport town centre yet none are remunerated on how successful the town is? do we really need a cycling officer? do we need all those staff? do we need all those buildings? why are so many council employees so inept?
personally, I don't think elected councillors should be getting jobs on the council, it stinks of jobs for the boys.
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personally, I don't think elected councillors should be getting jobs on the council, it stinks of jobs for the boys.
@Duke Fame to which jobs do you refer? As I understand it, If you are employed by the local authority, you cannot stand as a Councillor. Any Councillors subsequently employed by the Local Authority outside of their Councillr duties, must resign as a Councillor. Councillors run the Executive, so not sure if these are the "jobs" you refer to.
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If that's the case, great but (I'm not in any way criticising these individuals, especially Patrick) but I've dealt with Ian Roberts and Patrick McCormack recently and both seem to have paid jobs on the council and being councillors.
Over in Manchester, Dick Leese seems to be in a highly remunerated job in the council and a councillor.
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That's right Duke, let's not let facts get in the way of the Neo-liberal rhetoric!
Donald Trump could learn a few things from you!
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Richard Leese is the Leader of Manchester City Council and Member of their Executive. He is paid for this, but as I said these jobs are only filled by Councillors as the Executive run the Council. Same as Sue Derbyshire (Leader of SMBC) and Iain Roberts (Deputy Leader of SMBC). It is not jobs for the boys.
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Duke,
All councillors receive a basic allowance. If they have any additional duties/responsibilities then they receive a Special Responsibility Allowance (SRA). If you are directly employed by the council then you are disqualified from standing as a councillor for THAT council. Therefore no councillor has a 'job' with their council, it isn't allowed. All councillors allowances are out there in the public domain if you want to look at them.
Personally, I've always thought that councillors were UNDERpaid. Neither do I understand the huge disparity that exists in pay between Council Officers and Councillors nor do I understand the disparity that exists between different councils.
For Example the CEO of Stockport Council receives an annual salary approaching £200k whereas the Leader of the council receives less than £40k. If I was running the Council I would take a chunk of money off him and give to her and still have some left over.
In Manchester a councillor receives an annual basic allowance of £16k yet in Stockport its £9k, why is that?
Perhaps Malcolm Allan knows, he chaired a Panel Remuneration Board that establishes Councillor's allowances.
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Every Wednesday throughout the summers of 2013/14 I met a friend off the train for an early hours drink. We used to go into the Midland about 5pm. We always knew when it was Area Committee Evening because when it was The Marple 6 were in there, having their pre Area Committee Meeting. They would discuss the agenda and basically get their act together before they appeared in public at the real Area Committee. Personally neither my friend nor I could see any wrong in it.
I also know from my own experience, that before every council meeting of any importance which involves the politicians, that there is a series of group meetings whereupon Councillors take stances in line with their own politics. This stance is usually derived from the political party that they belong to.
So I'm not really sure what Councillor Kenny is trying to tell us. Is he saying that these meetings don't exist or is he saying that they do but that he doesn't go to them and if he is saying whatever it is he is saying, why is he saying it?
Furthermore, when I have actually worked out what he is saying I hope he won't mind if I view his comments with a little scepticism .
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@simonesaffron view my comments however you want, I don't really care. You will think whatever you want to think, no matter what the truth of the matter is. If you read my posts, I said the Conservative Party have a meeting before full Council meetings (which I do attend) where motions are discussed and people put their view points across. A general consensus is reached, people who want to speak on the matter volunteer but I said if I don't agree with the consensus and how it impacts on Marple South, I will vote how I see fit, not as I am told. Believe that or believe it not.
As for meetings before Marple Area Committee, there are no such meetings from the Conservative Party, I can't speak of the Lib Dems. Again, read my previous posts, but again, you will form your own view point, whether based on truth or not.
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@simonesaffron view my comments however you want, I don't really care.
Well Councillor you should care about comments made by your constituents even if you don't agree with them, you're supposed to care.
Hoffnung, though raises an interesting point concerning councillors when it comes to voting for/against the party line which I must admit I had never really thought about. In the example you quoted Hoffnung, how many did, do you know the answer?
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Well Councillor you should care about comments made by your constituents even if you don't agree with them, you're supposed to care.
Once again @simonesaffron you try to twist my words. I didn't say I didn't care about your or any other constituents comments. I said I didn't care how you viewed my comments in relation to this topic about meetings and toeing the party line as you stated you viewed them with scepticism. All i can do is provide you with the information I have and whether you believe it or not is up to you. You have no reason to doubt me as I have not lied to you before but you are probably basing your assumptions on the fact I am an elected representative and therefore classed as a 'Typical politician.' Your choice.
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Councillor Kenny,
You're getting yourself all rattled over a bit of a tease.
Nobody has ever said that you 'lied' that word has not been used, certainly not by me and I don't think by anybody else.
Neither do I hold your presumed 'Typical politician' view. In fact I have known a few politicians over the years and have a great respect for many of them. Voicing your disagreement within your party in a locked room is one thing, pursuing that disagreement into a vote in public view and record and against the party line is another and my own personal experience and research tells me that it rarely happens.
That is all I am saying.
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@Hoffnung - yes, I'd find it difficult to have a full-time job too, but it's possible and not for me to judge.
I would like to hear (with your insight - I mean that!) what you think makes a good councillor now that you are free to speak your mind.
Having had no experience as a Councillor myself Geoff, I can't help you there.
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@Hoffnung suggest you check your facts in relation to defections. 3 Lib Dem Concillors defected to Labour in protest at the decision to enter coalition. Patrick Macauley defected from Lab to Lib Dem.
The coalition was formed in 2010. Councillor Patrick was first elected to office in 201, a year after. He spent about 18 months as a Labour Councillor, then citing 'financial pressure' he left the labour party, sat as an independent for a short time, then joined the libdem, in fact serving on the Executive. So he didn't object to the coalition - he joined it.
As for the old chestnut about having a full time job and being a Councillor, I have answered that elsewhere on this forum. I manage just fine and is a combination of effective time management, a flexible employer, a very understanding family and modern technology. When I was in Germany this week, I was informed about the fly tipping on Middlewood. I managed to contact Council Officers all the way from Germany and advise them about this and arrange for it to get moved. How is that letting my constituents down?
An effective Councillor needs to be in his ward and around the council in person 15/20 hours (office hours), so that he can engage with officers) once a councillor is established as an 'email councillor' officers will start to fob him off, if not ignore him altogether. Getting a bit of flytip sorted is not an irrelevance but it is a minor issue and well done for managing it although I suspect the other 5 Marple Councillors might feel that they had some influence too.
There will though be issues where in order to manage them you will need to have a series of face to face meetings with different sets of officers 11am weekday meetings at the town hall, 2pm weekday site meetings and many more. These can't be effectively managed by email from Hamburg.
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Councillor Kenny,
The coalition was formed in 2010. Councillor Patrick was first elected to office as a Labour Councillor for the Manor Ward in 2011. He served for about a year then resigned from the Labour party citing personal financial pressure as his reason. He then sat as an Independent for a short time before joining the Libdems where he served/serves on the Executive.
He didn't object to the coalition - he joined it.
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An effective Councillor needs to be in his ward and around the council in person 15/20 hours (office hours), so that he can engage with officers) once a councillor is established as an 'email councillor' officers will start to fob him off, if not ignore him altogether. Getting a bit of flytip sorted is not an irrelevance but it is a minor issue and well done for managing it although I suspect the other 5 Marple Councillors might feel that they had some influence too.
There will though be issues where in order to manage them you will need to have a series of face to face meetings with different sets of officers 11am weekday meetings at the town hall, 2pm weekday site meetings and many more. These can't be effectively managed by email from Hamburg.
Personally, I think there is something badly wrong with the system if a councillor can't have a normal job and still be an effective councillor. I don't wan't my councillors to be occupied in council matters full time. I wan't them to be involved in normal everyday activities; either have a job, or perhaps being retired, or even unemployed but looking for a job. To me, the whole point of the council is that it consists of ordinary people, doing ordinary jobs, who also get together regularly to debate and vote on matters relating to the council area. Perhaps things have changed, but when I first started voting (not in this area), the local councillors were people like the local newsagent and a local train driver and others of that sort, who where well known in the community quite apart from their council role. If things have changed since then, perhaps it's time to change them back.
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Duke,
All councillors receive a basic allowance. If they have any additional duties/responsibilities then they receive a Special Responsibility Allowance (SRA). If you are directly employed by the council then you are disqualified from standing as a councillor for THAT council. Therefore no councillor has a 'job' with their council, it isn't allowed. All councillors allowances are out there in the public domain if you want to look at them.
Personally, I've always thought that councillors were UNDERpaid. Neither do I understand the huge disparity that exists in pay between Council Officers and Councillors nor do I understand the disparity that exists between different councils.
For Example the CEO of Stockport Council receives an annual salary approaching £200k whereas the Leader of the council receives less than £40k. If I was running the Council I would take a chunk of money off him and give to her and still have some left over.
In Manchester a councillor receives an annual basic allowance of £16k yet in Stockport its £9k, why is that?
Perhaps Malcolm Allan knows, he chaired a Panel Remuneration Board that establishes Councillor's allowances.
I must say, I've never been interested in the internal bureaucracy of local government but thanks for clearing it up, I understand now.
It's a strange system really, i certainly agree there seems a weird system to have the disparity that exists between different councils and how the council CEO can get paid £200k!!! no council employee should earn more than £50k as the demands of the public sector are not that of a real-world employer.
We seem to have a problem where elected councillors will take the top jobs on the basis of their earning capacity elsewhere. The incentive to take a officer role is very high for someone with limited earning capacity in the productive sector yet the more capable people will pass on the opportunity given their career elsewhere. We therefore see people like Dickie Leese get the top job and frankly make a bit of a pig's ear of it given they have no real world experience.
Not sure I have the answer but a problem nevertheless.
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@Condate I couldn't agree with you more, well said.
@Hoffnung Councillor Kenny,
The coalition was formed in 2010. Councillor Patrick was first elected to office as a Labour Councillor for the Manor Ward in 2011. He served for about a year then resigned from the Labour party citing personal financial pressure as his reason. He then sat as an Independent for a short time before joining the Libdems where he served/serves on the Executive.
He didn't object to the coalition - he joined it.
I am glad you agree with me about Cllr McAuley, I did state he went from Lab to Lib Dems. I do wish people would actually read what was written. Point is, you said there had been 3 in last 5 years, I said check your facts as there have been more.
As for your statements about when Councillors need to meet face to face etc etc, I am well aware of this being a Councillor and all, something which you readily admit you have no experience of. So speaking from a position of experience, that you do not have, it is manageable and I have had such meetings as and when required.
As for the other 5 Councillors who could claim the same thing about the fly tipping, I doubt they were even aware.
@simonesaffron I am not rattled, just responding to your posts. The fact you view my comments with scepticism would indicate that you do not believe what I am saying, thereby implying I am not telling the truth. Then again, maybe you are just sceptical by nature. As I said, your choice.
So to summarise, as far as I am concerned and have experience of -
1. I am not whipped to vote a certain way and will vote how I see fit based on the facts of the discussion
2. There are pre-meetings before full Council meetings, but not before Marple Area Committee or any other committee I am part of (as far as the Conservative Party is concerned)
3. A Councillor can have a full time job and fulfill the Councillor role
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So to summarise, as far as I am concerned and have experience of -
1. I am not whipped to vote a certain way and will vote how I see fit based on the facts of the discussion
2. There are pre-meetings before full Council meetings, but not before Marple Area Committee or any other committee I am part of (as far as the Conservative Party is concerned)
3. A Councillor can have a full time job and fulfill the Councillor role
1) I am glad to hear it. In that case however, why stand as a candidate for a party at all. Why don't you (and all the others candidates) just explain to the electorate what you stand for. We are capable of understanding. We are not so poorly educated that we need a party label to know who to vote for. We can work it out from what you actually say and do. I must emphasise this is not directed at you in particular, nor at any party or parties in particular; it's a general point about how candidates present themselves at elections.
2) I've nothing to say about this.
3) I agree entirely as I've explained in another post.
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@Condate I mentioned in previous posts it is expensive to run for Council, not from putting your name down on the Ballot sheet, but from running an election campaign. In my opinion, (and it is my opinion and people will disagree) running as an Independent doesn't work. One independent out of 6 Councillors in Marple or 63 Councillors in SMBC means you will be voted down more often than not. Heald Green Taxpayers advise they will always vote with the largest party in SMBC, which again in my opinion nullifies their independence.
I also said before that when I looked at joining a political party I considered all three of the large ones and the Conservative Party aligned most with my beliefs. This means, I am likely to agree with their stance in a majority of cases, but as I said, it does not mean I agree with everything the Party says or does and I will judge each case on its own merits before deciding and voting accordingly. That is all I can really say on the matter, and whether people choose to believe it or not, is up to them.
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Re Independence:
Heald Green Taxpayers advise they will always vote with the largest party in SMBC, which again in my opinion nullifies their independence.
Not true. They have voted with us on budget matters, but not always.
There was an example before the 2015 election (so Kenny wasn't there) where a brewery were selling off a local pub, recently closed. Local residents wanted to list it as an Asset of Community Value (ACV). This gave them 6 months to try to get a group together to run the place. I remember listening to the arguments and changed my mind in the meeting, going along with the ACV.
Again, we are trying to make the Marple Area Committee more inclusive - so if any forum members want to talk to councillors or officers, or want to discuss traffic and parking (a theme of this one), please come to the meeting at 5:30pm in the Marple Senior Citizen's Hall.
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Well Councillor you should care about comments made by your constituents even if you don't agree with them, you're supposed to care.
Hoffnung, though raises an interesting point concerning councillors when it comes to voting for/against the party line which I must admit I had never really thought about. In the example you quoted Hoffnung, how many did, do you know the answer?
Simone, in all honesty I really don't know. The information is out there but you would have to trawl through the minutes of 50 separate council meetings to find the answer and I just don't have what it takes to do that. I know somebody that might give me a quick random answer, so I'll try and get back to you on it at a later date, but please don't hold me to it. If I have anything to report then I will. I strongly suspect that over that period there would be very few councillors who have voted against their party line, if at all any.
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I've had a look /had someone look at the minutes of about 20 SMBC Full Council Meetings over the last three years. Every one had at least one proposed motion for debate and most had more than one.
Of all those motions I couldn't find one single example whereupon one single Councillor voted against his/her party.
What also struck me in particular was the apparent irrelevance of these motions to the people of Stockport and also the total lack of influence that these Councillors could have on the issues they were debating.
Some Examples of such debates were;
Northern Rail Station Staff.
Multinational Companies Tax Avoidance.
A Call on the National Media to Report on Peaceful Protests with Sensitivity.
The Trade Union Bill.
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Thanks for your kind comments – I’m not the least bit offended about the name mix up.
You asked about my experience. I can tell you about my involvement in local Government, although I can add I worked in Central Government in various posts in my early career which included writing briefs and parliamentary answers for ministers, but this wasn’t party political, as Civil Servants were “apolitical” always.
My involvement in local government started in the area where my work was based in Rochdale. I got involved via my Company in economic development and was asked by the Council to do various things arising from that. I was on the Development Agency Board that attracted new investment into Middleton which revitalised the town centre, including building the Middleton Arena. We were also working on the Rochdale Town Centre as a major project which has now come to fruition.
I developed what was regarded as an innovative childcare scheme with the Council and that lead to me being involved in what was the Children’s’ Partnership and eventually became the Children’s’ Trust. This was the “Children’s Schools and Families” area that came under the Local and National Government Department of the same name. I chaired the Trust from formation and at one stage our Trust was consulted by the Government of the day as one of 6 which were regarded as doing something well which was different. At the time I was the only Independent Chair in the Country. The Trust was a body made up of Councillors of all parties, Council Officers, Social Services, Head teachers, Police, NHS and the voluntary sector.
The charity work you refer to was another role where Rochdale were successful in a bid for £2.7m of lottery funding for an architectural and heritage project focussed on restoring the buildings of local architect Edgar Wood, a key figure in the Arts and Crafts movement. This Board which I chair is again made up of local councillors, community and business representatives. We have tangible evidence for our work and have attracted a large number of visitors to the area by linking with other heritage attractions.
I was also the Chair of the Rochdale Council Remuneration Panel and a member from its inception when local government was re-organised into its “cabinet” or “executive” system. All Councils set up independent panels to review what councillors were paid as an allowance and all other related areas such as use of IT equipment and so on. The work we did involved surveying councillors directly on their activities and how they spent their time. We did this in a paper survey but also by talking to councillors. The Panel took formal representations from the Party Leaders in the Council. We developed our own formula for this which we re-examined over the years. We presented our recommendations back to the Party leaders and these went to Council for decisions. This gave me what I feel was a very good insight into the work of Local Councillors, and the workings of council bodies.
None of this was experience as a Councillor but as has been said already, everyone starts with no experience. I think I’ve got some relevant background that gives me a better start.
I recently stopped full time work and hence my keenness to get involved in the area where I live.
A lot of reasons why I might wish to employ you Malcolm but I can't really find one in there why I should vote for you as a Councillor.
What is your view on some of the local issues that have been debated on this forum recently? That's what I'm interested in.
Another thing, I wouldn't really submit Rochdale Council as a reference, controversial council to say the least. What is your view on there 4 Chief Execs in three years, on their Councillors giving references to child abusers and on their Children's safeguarding directorate being placed in special measures?
Finally you say that you are no longer working full time. What time are you actually working and where?
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What is your view on some of the local issues that have been debated on this forum recently? That's what I'm interested in.
Another thing, I wouldn't really submit Rochdale Council as a reference, controversial council to say the least. What is your view on there 4 Chief Execs in three years, on their Councillors giving references to child abusers and on their Children's safeguarding directorate being placed in special measures?
Hoffnung makes some interesting points however to complain about a lack of discussion on local issues then ask Malcolm to explain his views on Rochdale isn't the most logical approach!
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I've had a look /had someone look at the minutes of about 20 SMBC Full Council Meetings over the last three years. Every one had at least one proposed motion for debate and most had more than one.
Of all those motions I couldn't find one single example whereupon one single Councillor voted against his/her party.
What also struck me in particular was the apparent irrelevance of these motions to the people of Stockport and also the total lack of influence that these Councillors could have on the issues they were debating.
Some Examples of such debates were;
Northern Rail Station Staff.
Multinational Companies Tax Avoidance.
A Call on the National Media to Report on Peaceful Protests with Sensitivity.
The Trade Union Bill.
These debates may not be relevant to you, but, they will certainly be relevant to the residents of Stockport whether at work or at home as well as the efficient running of the council, which i assume you agree our Councillors should be concerned with.
Congratulations on having the time to trawl the minutes, as someone who works full time it isn't something I can fit it, could you provide figures for the number of debates which you view to be relevant?
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These debates may not be relevant to you, but, they will certainly be relevant to the residents of Stockport whether at work or at home as well as the efficient running of the council, which i assume you agree our Councillors should be concerned with.
These debates appear to be on matters over which the council has no control and which are better discussed at national level. There is no reason to discuss them in the council. If the councillors have a strong view on these matters, then there are better places to make those views known and they should do so in their capacity as voters and not as councillors.
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These debates may not be relevant to you, but, they will certainly be relevant to the residents of Stockport whether at work or at home as well as the efficient running of the council, which i assume you agree our Councillors should be concerned with.
Congratulations on having the time to trawl the minutes, as someone who works full time it isn't something I can fit it, could you provide figures for the number of debates which you view to be relevant?
I took Hoffnung's post to say that it was the motions debating the issues that were irrelevant and not the actual issues themselves. Of course issues such as the Trade Union Bill are important to many but as Condate points out, Why are our councillors in Stockport debating it? This is something to be discussed at National Level. Shouldn't they be debating Stockport issues? What do they hope to achieve for the people of Stockport by debating "Multi National's Tax Avoidance?"
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Hoffnung,
Thank you for finding the time to do the exercise, your efforts are appreciated. and your findings interesting.
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Hoffnung makes some interesting points however to complain about a lack of discussion on local issues then ask Malcolm to explain his views on Rochdale isn't the most logical approach!
I think that asking somebody who is standing for office as a local Councillor and also making multi reference to Rochdale Council, questions about either or both is very logical and reasonable. I for one will be interested in Malcom's response.
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I've had a look /had someone look at the minutes of about 20 SMBC Full Council Meetings over the last three years. Every one had at least one proposed motion for debate and most had more than one.
Of all those motions I couldn't find one single example whereupon one single Councillor voted against his/her party.
@Hoffnung interesting stuff. Having looked into it myself, and having asked questions internally, be interested to know how you ascertain how the Councillors voted? I can't see anywhere that provides a breakdown of the Councillors votes, only a very broad statement (48 For, 12 Against). Be grateful if you could point out where the breakdown is located?
Thanks in advance.
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@Hoffnung interesting stuff. Having looked into it myself, and having asked questions internally, be interested to know how you ascertain how the Councillors voted? I can't see anywhere that provides a breakdown of the Councillors votes, only a very broad statement (48 For, 12 Against). Be grateful if you could point out where the breakdown is located?
Thanks in advance.
Councillor Kenny,
Let's not allow ourselves to be deflected from the issue by being dragged down in the detail of the method. It was a tedious task anyway, I've got better things to do than explain my research methods and I would have thought that as a representing Councillor, so have you!
The fact of the matter as far as I am concerned is that Councillors almost always vote with the pre-determined party line.
If you don't wish to take my word for it, take your own. Ask yourself how many motions you have sat through in full council and how many times you have voted against your decided upon party line. You may even wish to share your score with this.
forum, I'll leave that to you.
On a separate but not completely unconnected issue: Why does Stockport Council propose and debate motions that have absolutely no connection whatsoever to Stockport and which local Councillors can have no influence on whatsoever ?
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Late thought,
Why don't you propose at the next Council meeting that the full Council debates the proposed withdrawal of the 394 bus service and its actions and consequences. A local issue that is really important to local people.
In fact at the earliest opportunity, I am going to see what the proposed motions are, for the next Council meeting and post them on this site. Then people can judge for themselves how relevant they are.
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@Hoffnung next Council Meeting is the 3rd March, agenda is published and there are no motions to be debated.
Regarding your question on debates that don't concern Stockport, see my comments in earlier postings.
Regarding your statement about being deflected by the detail, the detail is important if your claims are to be substantiated. It was a genuine question as to where the info was as I trawled the Minutes too. The only time the votes are broken down is during Budget meetings. Otherwise, I cannot find a breakdown. If there is no breakdown, your claims cannot be substantiated.
I have sat through 5 full Council meetings. IN that time there have been 11 motions presented, of which 5 could be said to have a local impact. They are listed below for information.
Opposition to Govt Health Cuts
EU Referendum Franchise - Voting Age reduced to 16
Psychoactive Substances
Ethical Council Tax Collection Practices
Private Rented Sector Landlords
Trade Union Bill
Individual Electoral Registration
Housing and Planning Bill
Mental Health CHallenge
Rail Franchises
Greater Manchester Fire and Rescue Service Cuts
You have already stated that as far as you are concerned, we are whipped to tow the party line. I have told you this is incorrect as someone who has first hand experience of this, which you don't. I asked a genuine question as to where the data was but you will not share the data which you claim proves your assertion that we are whipped to tow the party line. I ask again genuinely, please show me where the data is because I cannot find it.
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I worked for Councils (not Stockport) for many years and have sat through countless full Council meetings, many of them spending hours debating pointless motions that have got absolutely nothing to do with local Council business.
I've witnessed motions on VAT Thresholds, Scottish Independence, Trident Missiles, a hurricane in St Louis, a mining accident in South America!! etc. etc.
It's all to do with party politicking and political posturing which sadly all Councils waste hours upon hours doing when they should be addressing local issues.
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Late thought,
Why don't you propose at the next Council meeting that the full Council debates the proposed withdrawal of the 394 bus service and its actions and consequences. A local issue that is really important to local people.
In fact at the earliest opportunity, I am going to see what the proposed motions are, for the next Council meeting and post them on this site. Then people can judge for themselves how relevant they are.
I have read your reply but it contains no response to Hoffnung's question. Once again 'Why don't you propose at the next Council meeting that the full Council debates the proposed withdrawal of the 394 bus service and its actions and consequences?' There is a routine procedure for deadlines for motions but if deemed to be sufficiently important , topics can be added to the agenda. Prospective Conservative candidate John Bates is Campaigning online for a continuation of the service. Are you prepared to do the same?
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Councillor Kenny,
I think that you are getting a little confused with your demands. This is a community forum not the Supreme Court.
I think the best thing to do under the circumstances is to rely on the education and intelligence of the posters/readers on this site to gauge their own discernment on whether Councillors toe the party line or not. Or indeed if they engage in futile debates wherein they can have no impact.
I was aware of them but nevertheless thank you for listing your attended motions. Which way did you vote on them? With the party or against it?
You say that ...'5 could be said to have a local impact.' I expect that could be said of anything. It really is hard to work out what impact Stockport Councillors could have on these issues and what actually are 'Psychoactive Substances?' What actually were the consequences of Stockport Councillors debating such motions as 'The Trade Union Bill' or 'The Housing and Planning Bill?'
Did the government rescind them or alter them in any way.
Back to the 394 bus, which is a real local issue. Are you going to propose the motion at the next council meeting? Now that debate I really would appreciate.
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@Hoffnung I think you are getting confused, it was not a demand but a question. If you cannot or will not provide the data, i can only assume you have no actual evidence apart from a gut feeling. As I said, I cannot comment on others, but I have never been forced to vote in any way, which is the point you originally made and claimed you had evidence for. I will vote how I see fit based on the facts.
As for how I voted in the individual debates, I am sure you already have that information. But to be clear, I did not vote blindly based on party loyalty, I listened to the debates and made my decision accordingly. If this aligned 'with the party' as you state, it is not because I have been told to.
I agree with your comments on debating national issues, see my comments elsewhere on the forum.
Regarding the 394 Bus, I can certainly look into adding it to the Agenda, but as it is the Budget Council meeting, it is unlikely it will be added. (it is also unlikely I will be in attendance at the Full Council Meeting on Thursday as i will unfortunately be in Scotland). Would you like to propose the motion to debate? We can also ask questions of the Executive or TfGM representatives, which may be more appropriate or indeed you can even ask questions, as we have Public Question Time.
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I didn't say 'forced' charmed, cajoled, argued, call it what you will, the political term as you know is 'whipped,' but lets not take that literally. All I'm saying is that on every motion that you've sat through at the full Council meeting you've voted with the Conservative party and you will do the same in every forthcoming motion.
Anyway back to the 394 bus.
I understand what you are saying about the budget meeting and you are probably right. A question in public question time would not achieve much as these questions are forgotten as soon as the answer is given. I've got a suggestion which might help.
There is a council meeting on April 7th. In addition to this Councillor Geoff Abell who is a Marple Councillor is also a member of TfGM Executive and is also an Area Committee colleague of yours. If you could discuss it with him and between you propose and second a motion which has at its conclusion a letter from SMBC Chief Exec on behalf of the whole Council to both TfGM Executive and the bus company it may carry some weight.
I do appreciate that the planned date for withdrawing of the service is 25th March and this may seem like shutting the stable door but it may urge interested parties to reconsider.
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Motions to Stockport Council
Opposition to Govt Health Cuts
EU Referendum Franchise - Voting Age reduced to 16
Psychoactive Substances
Ethical Council Tax Collection Practices
Private Rented Sector Landlords
Trade Union Bill
Individual Electoral Registration
Housing and Planning Bill
Mental Health CHallenge
Rail Franchises
Greater Manchester Fire and Rescue Service Cuts
Thanks to Kenny for supplying these.
A lot of these motions are national in theme, and suggested by people well away from Stockport. And we have a 10 o'clock cut-off, so some members do talk out motions. This happened on the Psychoactive Substances Motion, which was a shame because we might have been able to do something different in Stockport, and all we were allowed at 10 o'clock was a vote: Yes/No/Abstain. (This is the "legal highs" blanket ban that comes into effect in April).
Fire Service cuts was also local. But the majority weren't. And we tend to vote on party lines, even if we are not whipped.
I've witnessed motions on VAT Thresholds, Scottish Independence, Trident Missiles, a hurricane in St Louis, a mining accident in South America!! etc. etc.
It's all to do with party politicking and political posturing which sadly all Councils waste hours upon hours doing when they should be addressing local issues.
It is.
So my challenge is: What would have a Motion on?? Speaking of which:
To the 394.
To me, it seems that this service is used by many, but used infrequently. As a result it is not commercially viable.
As I have a voice on TfGM, I am trying to get a continuation of some service here.
I know that people across the politic divide are united to help. As always, it comes down to money.
The news at the moment is that Derbyshire County Council are tendering for a replacement.
I'll keep you posted. And thanks to the huge number of people who've contacted me directly.