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Author Topic: Voting for Brexit  (Read 23918 times)

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Dave

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #135 on: December 07, 2019, 07:02:21 PM »
Pro Europeans are the ones who are anti EU.

The screens, nurse, the screens...... 😏

Condate

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #134 on: December 07, 2019, 06:31:20 PM »
You have three options:
1) Don't vote. If you take this one then you can have no complaints about the result has you've abnegated any responsibility. In my opinion, a coward's way out.
2) Vote for the least worst option. At least you've done something.
3) Do something about it. Join a political party that represents your views. If you can't find one, set one up yourself. There's never been an easier time in history to use instantaneous communications media that can reach billions of people in one go, as long as what you've got to say resonates with them.

Option 2 is the one most people go far. It's what I will do. When faced with candidates from three left wing parties, even the least worst option is pretty bad.

Option 3, form your own party or stand as an independent is certainly an option I'll consider.

Option 1 actually sounds like an option I might have to go for in the future if the three main parties drift even further leftward (if that's possible).

Condate

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #133 on: December 07, 2019, 06:25:03 PM »
OK Melancholy, here’s an example of a EU law - it came into force last January.  https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_18_6853

This law has had the effect of preventing (or at least hampering) tax avoidance by international companies and the extremely wealthy people who own them.  Some of those people own newspapers, which why the Mail, Express, Times, Telegraph etc have been indoctrinating us all with relentless anti-EU propaganda for the past three years and more.

If we leave the EU this law will no longer apply in the U.K., and the billionaire tax dodgers will breathe again. Will that ‘make your life better?’  I don’t think so - unless you too are a billionaire tax dodger!

Such regulation should be no business at all of the EU. It should be a matter of international agreement between nations regardless of whether they are in the EU or not.  The EU is most definitely not the body who should deal with such matters, or indeed any matters at all. The EU is not only not necessary, it is positively a danger to Europe. Why so many people love the EU (and are therefore are anti-European) I don't know. Pro Europeans are the ones who are anti EU.

Dave

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #132 on: December 07, 2019, 06:10:56 PM »
I believe the ability to make one's own laws by the law-making body of my own country will make my life better. We managed to do that for centuries before the EU came and we can manage after it's gone.

OK Melancholy, here’s an example of a EU law - it came into force last January.  https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_18_6853

This law has had the effect of preventing (or at least hampering) tax avoidance by international companies and the extremely wealthy people who own them.  Some of those people own newspapers, which why the Mail, Express, Times, Telegraph etc have been indoctrinating us all with relentless anti-EU propaganda for the past three years and more.

If we leave the EU this law will no longer apply in the U.K., and the billionaire tax dodgers will breathe again. Will that ‘make your life better?’  I don’t think so - unless you too are a billionaire tax dodger!

Melancholyflower

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #131 on: December 07, 2019, 10:39:00 AM »

as for your 'wrong' comments earlier in this thread - as an example I refer to those re foot and mouth.  Both outbreaks you refer to had nothing to do with the EU or EEC.

So my comments weren't all wrong, then. Thanks for clarifying.

I didn't say either FAM outbreak was caused directly by the EU or EEC - the first pre-dated our membership as you well know. But it was dealt with rather better than the second. The response to, and failure to contain or deal with the 2001 outbreak properly, was a direct result of EU derived legislation.


marpleexile

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #130 on: December 07, 2019, 07:36:32 AM »
And yes, I believe the ability to make one's own laws by the law-making body of my own country will make my life better.

Out of interest, why do you think this?

Personally, I don't care whether the laws are made by remote, out of touch, politicians in Westminster, or by remote, out of touch, politicians in Brussels, and I really don't see what difference it makes.

Although, the whole Brexit farce has shown the that Brussels politicians are at least somewhat more competent than the majority of the morons currently sitting in Westminster.

Melancholyflower

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #129 on: December 06, 2019, 11:10:17 PM »
Melancholy, stusmith asked you to describe how your life or those of your children or grand children will improve if we leave the EU. You replied:

stusmith and marplexile have dealt with much of that already.  Each member state of the EU has its own laws, and those form the vast majority of law in each country. EU law applies only to trans-national issues - treaties, elections to the European Parliament, directives and regulations relating to the Single Market (Margaret Thatcher's greatest achievement).  Since 1999, when records became available for the first time in an accessible format, the UK has voted “no” to legislation on 57 occasions. It has voted “yes” 2,474 times and abstained from voting 70 times. This translates into the UK opposing 2% of legislation, abstaining on 3% of it, and supporting 95% of it.

Above all, leaving these aspects of the EU behind will in no way make your life or your children's better, melancholy, Can you seriously imagine your son or daughter saying on 1 February next year, if the Tories have managed to wrench us out of the EU, 'oh mummy, mummy,  I'm so happy that we now have a completely independent and fully accountable judicial system which isn't subserviant to a supranational court '   ;)

What it will do, however, is make us poorer.  Cautious forecasts estimate a 2.5% hit on GDP - that takes about £50 billion out of the economy.

So "only" thousands of EU Directives become laws in this country then, with 95% of agreement.  Trying to trivialise this and making smart remarks about important constitutional issues like laws and courts doesn't get away from the fact that they aren't made or established in this country.

You mention cautious forecasts. That's all they are... forecasts. That's all I gave as well. Which is why this argument is in a sense so futile and will always be so. Each side will blame the other for whatever goes from until time immemorial.  And yes, I believe the ability to make one's own laws by the law-making body of my own country will make my life better. We managed to do that for centuries before the EU came and we can manage after it's gone.

andrewbowden

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #128 on: December 06, 2019, 10:49:08 PM »
Here's what the bookies think about the election prospects here in Hazel Grove:

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/constituencies/next-uk-general-election-constituencies/hazel-grove

As you see, they think it's close. Tories are favourite, but not by much. If I were a betting man I might fancy a punt on the Lib Dems at 2:1.

For comparison, here's their assessment of the prospects at Cheadle. Even closer.......

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/constituencies/next-uk-general-election-constituencies/cheadle

I think William Hill might need to do more research.  Their odds on the Brexit Party winning...

amazon

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #127 on: December 06, 2019, 08:19:44 PM »
Here's what the bookies think about the election prospects here in Hazel Grove:

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/constituencies/next-uk-general-election-constituencies/hazel-grove

As you see, they think it's close. Tories are favourite, but not by much. If I were a betting man I might fancy a punt on the Lib Dems at 2:1.

For comparison, here's their assessment of the prospects at Cheadle. Even closer.......

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/constituencies/next-uk-general-election-constituencies/cheadle
So have they opened and counted the postal votes .

Dave

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #126 on: December 06, 2019, 05:35:37 PM »
Here's what the bookies think about the election prospects here in Hazel Grove:

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/constituencies/next-uk-general-election-constituencies/hazel-grove

As you see, they think it's close. Tories are favourite, but not by much. If I were a betting man I might fancy a punt on the Lib Dems at 2:1.

For comparison, here's their assessment of the prospects at Cheadle. Even closer.......

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/constituencies/next-uk-general-election-constituencies/cheadle

andrewbowden

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #125 on: December 05, 2019, 10:15:14 PM »
But whilst they are counted, no one knows why your ballot was spoiled. Some (most?) people accidentally spoil their ballots, rather than as a deliberate act of protest.

You can write on it if you want.  And there are party representatives at the count who do look over the shoulders whilst the count is going on (and in some cases argue about whether a spoiled paper is spoiled...)

Quote
Obviously, FPTP should go, but even an option for non of the above would be a start. Until then, if your prefered candidate isn't one of the two who can win in your seat, voting is pointless, and people know that which contributes to low turnouts.

When I was at university, all our student elections were done by Single Transferable Vote, and had an option at the bottom: RON.  Re-Open Nominations.  I certainly don't see why we can't have something similar in government elections.

marpleexile

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #124 on: December 05, 2019, 09:38:14 PM »
Spoiled papers are counted, recorded.  They are viewed by people.   If you don't turn up no one knows why you didn't.  But turning up and saying no is recorded.  Your intent is known.

But whilst they are counted, no one knows why your ballot was spoiled. Some (most?) people accidentally spoil their ballots, rather than as a deliberate act of protest.

Obviously, FPTP should go, but even an option for non of the above would be a start. Until then, if your prefered candidate isn't one of the two who can win in your seat, voting is pointless, and people know that which contributes to low turnouts.

amazon

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #123 on: December 05, 2019, 08:37:56 PM »
Spoiled papers are counted, recorded.  They are viewed by people.   If you don't turn up no one knows why you didn't.  But turning up and saying no is recorded.  Your intent is known.
Still sad not got the bottle to vote .

andrewbowden

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #122 on: December 05, 2019, 07:08:37 PM »
Sad really why just not vote and sit on the fence .

Spoiled papers are counted, recorded.  They are viewed by people.   If you don't turn up no one knows why you didn't.  But turning up and saying no is recorded.  Your intent is known.

amazon

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #121 on: December 05, 2019, 05:33:31 PM »
Yes spoiling the ballot paper is definitely an option I'd consider
Sad really why just not vote and sit on the fence .