Manchester Council budget cuts etc.

[Duke Fame]

Mmm.  56 billion is 70% of 80 billion.  If you got paid 70% of your normal salary at the end of this month, would you just shrug and say 'ah well, never mind, it's quite a bit like what I ought to be paid'?   

I was for about 6 months. In fact many of the big accountancy practices were on 4-day weeks for 2009-10 perios, many other private sector businesses either did this or lost staff. The public sector were shielded from this reality.

[Duke Fame]

@Duke.

You seem to contradict yourself, the activities that the public sector have a duty to do are the glue that hold society together, because - as you point out - there may be no commercial interest, human goodwill and markets do fail - yet those activities still need to take place.

If I read in between the lines, saying the only alternative to state sponsored capitalism, socialism, is a Nazi regime is a bit far fetched!

I may be more Keynesian when it comes to macroeconomics, and if we have adopted the bancor we may not have been in this mess, but hey ho, we need to deal with the situation as best we can. wholesale reform of the NHS, privatising education and other core functions of the state whilst laying off hundreds of thousands of people is not the way to go in my opinion.

I think the shock will come when the vast majority of people around this rather prosperous area realise that their pensions are not what they once were, fuel and subsistence prices are rising, property prices are falling and actually they are being kicked repeatedly whilst Bob diamond is taking a £9,000,000 bonus each year and the current government are allowing tax evasion from the likes of Phillip Green.

Vodaphones unpaid tax = £6bn. Cuts announced in the emergent budget = £6.2bn.

(does 'Nazi' invoke godwins law?)

No contradiction at all, Andy. Markets fail and that is where the state comes in. We pay a tax to ensure we don’t have freeloading, ensure everyone has access to the rule of law, some antisocial actions are discouraged but that is about it. Markets generally work brilliantly.

In Manchester the council were getting involved in areas that a local authority should not dabble. It’s received huge amounts of money in the past and it’s been wasted. The fact the some complain that Manchester has a lot of deprived areas suggests that after 18 years of receiving bumper sums of money from central govt, Manchester has failed to use it effectively. Not surprising when the leader is such a self-centred fool who’s been promoted way over his own ability.

Whilst I agree with Keynes in many ways, I do think his work sadly was interpreted very badly by the Scottish PM and that more than Kenynesianism perse is why the Scottish PM made such mistakes.

I don’t agree with the idea of a bancor, I suppose the Euro is as close as we’ll get to that and that’s been a failure. Economies need buffers, those buffers are currency, labour costs etc, take that away and only the richest areas will thrive.

Keynes I believe had a point, spend on infrastructural projects in times of depression, repay debt & create reserves in times of growth. The Scottish PM never understood this and hence spent regardless. The Scottish PM was not a stupid man but was terribly flawed.

I think what is misunderstood of Keynes is that whilst he did advocate spending in order to stimulate growth, there is not one page in the general theory that suggests we should spend money on unnecessary services that will not create future wealth or comparative advantage. That is why cuts to council services are acceptable when on the other hand investment soars in high speed rail projects, M1 widening, A1(m) extensions etc. This is proper Keynesian stimulus and the coalition government should be congratulated for this.

As for Vodafone, I’m not a tax accountant and am quite impressed at your ability to understand the intricacies of the way tax can be avoided. Having that sort of understanding must land you some incredible cases and earn a huge wage in doing so. All I can say, hats off to you, Andy, would you look at my tax returns?

[Cripes]

Not sure who you are directing this at, but it appears to be more than one with "you lot".   Its about appropriate cuts,  for example Howard Bernstein salary which has not been touched while they attempt to close libraries etc. And I competely stand by my point about not having very positive experience with the public sector. Ironically I have just been on the phone now to try and sort out the cardboard recycling for my business, they are supposed to close at five, but the switchboard have informed me they have all gone hom early.

Aha, the 'Bernstein' argument (although in it's shorter format, ie not directly compared with the PMs salary whilst conveniently forgetting the  PMs lifetime pension, housing etc).  The 'Bernstein' is basically lazy shorthand/tabloid tactics in an argument about public finances by individuals/groups who doesn't get that even removing a £200k job, goes nowhere near touching the 10s of millions in cuts that cities all over the UK are facing.
 

Its an example of where cuts would be better made, its not a lazy tabloid tactic, I have worked with him myself and I hardly saw anything to justify the inflated salary awarded to him.

[moorendman]

My point was it's still a big number whereas your original statement gave no substanceto the size. Indeed you used phrase " nothing like". I would shrug and say thats quite a bit like what I ought to be paid if I was Howard Bernstein however

[Dave]

Mmm.  56 billion is 70% of 80 billion.  If you got paid 70% of your normal salary at the end of this month, would you just shrug and say 'ah well, never mind, it's quite a bit like what I ought to be paid'?   

[moorendman]

Labour planned to cut by 56 Billion according to a written parliamentary question last week. Thats not as much but still quite a bit like £80 billion !

[Dave]

Perhaps the cuts (which would have been made by whichever party won the election) will help them focus their minds.

Alistair Darling did indeed plan to cut public expenditure, in the event that Labour were re-elected last May.  But nothing like the 80 billion which this government has announced.  You don't have to be a deficit denier to see that the depth and suddenness of the current expenditure cuts is an extremely risky strategy. 

[moorendman]

You may want to actually have a drive around Manchester (the whole of Manchester, not just the city centre and the bits inbetween there and Marple) and then pass comment on the 'supposed' levels of deprevation.  How easy it is to take pot shots when you live in an affluent area such as Marple.

Thanks for that suggestion, however , I have no need of your "advice" as I was born and brought up in North Manchester and am confident that I know a great deal more about the city then you probably do. If you had read the post properly , then you would have realised that the only "pot shots" were aimed at Manchester City Council and its leadership. it is my opinion that they have largely failed to help the deprived and vulnerable despite the greater amounts of funds they have been in receipt of for years. I would base this on my own experience as the areas I know best , Harpurhey, Moston and Blackley,  are worse places to live than they were 30 years ago. The sooner the City and its legions of overpaid managers realise that their job is to help those people and not try to create some liberal,utopian Barcelona the better. Perhaps the cuts (which would have been made by whichever party won the election) will help them focus their minds.

Aha, the 'Bernstein' argument (although in it's shorter format, ie not directly compared with the PMs salary whilst conveniently forgetting the  PMs lifetime pension, housing etc).  The 'Bernstein' is basically lazy shorthand/tabloid tactics in an argument about public finances by individuals/groups who doesn't get that even removing a £200k job, goes nowhere near touching the 10s of millions in cuts that cities all over the UK are facing.

The reverse of this "argument" is of course,is the laughable canard that Public Service senior managers are only paid what they would get in the private sector. Of course simply cutting £200,000 will not address the tens of millions of cuts and it is risible to suggest that people think it might. But a substantial reduction in his salary AND many other senior posts might demonstrate a serious commitment to address the overspend issue. Not least to the 2000 people who are forecast to lose their jobs with the council. As for a comparison with the PM and his pension , are you suggesting that Bernstein will not get a pension?  If you want a comparison try this: Peter Saville , Manchester's Creative Director , has been paid £120,000 a year for 5 years. His contribution is one stripey M on some signs. £600,000 would have been better spent on 12 carers for 5 years. http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1409345_famed_factory_records_designer_peter_saville_axed_from_120000_council_contract

[belleesummerbee]

'Ok I'm going all Godwin on this but you get the point'

I certainly don't get it Duke, but i do know that we will only realise how important the whole cross section of public services were, when they are no longer at our disposal
 

[Neil Smith]

Public sector bashing seems all the rage at the moment. We can all recall instances where we have been less than satisfied with the Local Authority, and other public bodies, many of which have been discussed on this forum, but lets not forget its the glue which holds the fabric of society together. The private sector can also make the odd costly error one of which we are all presently paying for.

Yes its public sector bashing time, the private sector pulled in there belts ages ago due to them HAVING to earn there money (eg an engineering firm) but due to the public sector demanding taxes they seem to have the attitude of easy come easy go.

[Steptoe and Son]

Not sure who you are directing this at, but it appears to be more than one with "you lot".   Its about appropriate cuts,  for example Howard Bernstein salary which has not been touched while they attempt to close libraries etc. And I competely stand by my point about not having very positive experience with the public sector. Ironically I have just been on the phone now to try and sort out the cardboard recycling for my business, they are supposed to close at five, but the switchboard have informed me they have all gone hom early.

Aha, the 'Bernstein' argument (although in it's shorter format, ie not directly compared with the PMs salary whilst conveniently forgetting the  PMs lifetime pension, housing etc).  The 'Bernstein' is basically lazy shorthand/tabloid tactics in an argument about public finances by individuals/groups who doesn't get that even removing a £200k job, goes nowhere near touching the 10s of millions in cuts that cities all over the UK are facing.
 

[Steptoe and Son]

They get more because they have supposedly more deprivation

You may want to actually have a drive around Manchester (the whole of Manchester, not just the city centre and the bits inbetween there and Marple) and then pass comment on the 'supposed' levels of deprevation.  How easy it is to take pot shots when you live in an affluent area such as Marple.

[andy+kirsty]

@Duke.

You seem to contradict yourself, the activities that the public sector have a duty to do are the glue that hold society together, because - as you point out - there may be no commercial interest, human goodwill and markets do fail - yet those activities still need to take place.

If I read in between the lines, saying the only alternative to state sponsored capitalism, socialism, is a Nazi regime is a bit far fetched!

I may be more Keynesian when it comes to macroeconomics, and if we have adopted the bancor we may not have been in this mess, but hey ho, we need to deal with the situation as best we can. wholesale reform of the NHS, privatising education and other core functions of the state whilst laying off hundreds of thousands of people is not the way to go in my opinion.

I think the shock will come when the vast majority of people around this rather prosperous area realise that their pensions are not what they once were, fuel and subsistence prices are rising, property prices are falling and actually they are being kicked repeatedly whilst Bob diamond is taking a £9,000,000 bonus each year and the current government are allowing tax evasion from the likes of Phillip Green.

Vodaphones unpaid tax = £6bn. Cuts announced in the emergent budget = £6.2bn.

(does 'Nazi' invoke godwins law?)

[Mike W]

Ok I'm going all Godwin on this but you get the point

Not really.  Even accepting that Godwin's Law tends to kick in at the point where rational argument fails, expressing qualified approval for the role of Local Authorities is hardly a 'corporatist vision', let alone a defence of totalitarianism. 

[Duke Fame]

Public sector bashing seems all the rage at the moment. We can all recall instances where we have been less than satisfied with the Local Authority, and other public bodies, many of which have been discussed on this forum, but lets not forget its the glue which holds the fabric of society together. The private sector can also make the odd costly error one of which we are all presently paying for.

I disagree, it's not the glue that holds society together. Society, haman instinct and Adam Smith's invisible hand holds society together. The state has a role, not to direct but to fill in the gaps where private enterprise, human goodwill and the market fails.

Your corporatist vision is all very well but the chap to try it came to a sticky end having created some sticky ends along the way. Ok I'm going all Godwin on this but you get the point