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Author Topic: Windlehurst Road Traffic Calming Measures - Consultation  (Read 10961 times)

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jimblob

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Re: Windlehurst Road Traffic Calming Measures - Consultation
« Reply #124 on: August 15, 2021, 10:57:44 AM »
The measures were implemented on the back of the results of a far less detailed consultation! Seems this one just exonerates local councillors as they can now blame the Labour Council if nothing gets done..... Waste of even more money. Bravo!
I noticed in the concluding summary of the report, it states there is an appetite for alternative measures, so a small minority are still calling the shots. Nothing will get done and the majority get their cars shaken to pieces still.
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GM

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Re: Windlehurst Road Traffic Calming Measures - Consultation
« Reply #123 on: August 14, 2021, 12:53:57 PM »
Looks and sounds like wheels has rewritten the definition of consultation.

So if I consult and ask for opinions and feedback, choose to ignore all the responses.

What's the actual point other than wasting time energy and council funds.

wheels

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Re: Windlehurst Road Traffic Calming Measures - Consultation
« Reply #122 on: August 14, 2021, 12:23:44 PM »
You clearly don't understand how consultations work. It must be that lack of knowledge and understanding that causes your apparent frustration. I think it's that knowledge gap you need to address not the process which most people understand. They might not like the outcomes but they understand what's happened.

GM

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Re: Windlehurst Road Traffic Calming Measures - Consultation
« Reply #121 on: August 14, 2021, 11:47:14 AM »
Oh I see wheels.

We can just keep asking the people what they think, ignore the response and claim we can't do anything due to budgets.

Wait a while and then ask again until we give them the reply they wish to hear?.

Condate

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Re: Windlehurst Road Traffic Calming Measures - Consultation
« Reply #120 on: August 13, 2021, 09:23:57 PM »
I think we can also all agree that a consultation exercise is just that,  consultation,  it is not a decision making process it is just a tool to help inform those making a decision and its perfectly in order for the decision makers to reject the majority view of consultees without any loss of goodwill or integrity.   It is perfectly acceptable to take no notice of a consultation exercise particularly if the decision makers hold other information not available to consultees.

That is quite correct.  I think the issue is that consultations are perceived as never being taken into account. You would expect the occasional consultation result to have some effect on the end result. When it appears, rightly or wrongly, that decisions have been made before the consultation has taken place and nothing in the consultation is going to change that, that people become somewhat cynical about them. As I say, it's a matter of the way consultations are perceived by a lot of people that affects the attitude towards them. For all I know, there is a chance that some consultations do change minds in the council. Perhaps the council could make more effort to convince people that what they think does actually matter.


wheels

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Re: Windlehurst Road Traffic Calming Measures - Consultation
« Reply #119 on: August 13, 2021, 07:31:44 PM »
Whilst we can also all agree that the local councillors just aren't pushing the issues either.

Regards of who controls the council, I'd rather they were vocal and not just the usual platitudes come election time.

I think we can also all agree that a consultation exercise is just that,  consultation,  it is not a decision making process it is just a tool to help inform those making a decision and its perfectly in order for the decision makers to reject the majority view of consultees without any loss of goodwill or integrity.   It is perfectly acceptable to take no notice of a consultation exercise particularly if the decision makers hold other information not available to consultees.

amazon

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Re: Windlehurst Road Traffic Calming Measures - Consultation
« Reply #118 on: August 13, 2021, 05:10:00 PM »
Whilst we can also all agree that the local councillors just aren't pushing the issues either.

Regards of who controls the council, I'd rather they were vocal and not just the usual platitudes come election time.
Then put up for  election next time

GM

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Re: Windlehurst Road Traffic Calming Measures - Consultation
« Reply #117 on: August 13, 2021, 01:51:14 PM »
Whilst we can also all agree that the local councillors just aren't pushing the issues either.

Regards of who controls the council, I'd rather they were vocal and not just the usual platitudes come election time.

jimblob

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Re: Windlehurst Road Traffic Calming Measures - Consultation
« Reply #116 on: August 13, 2021, 01:31:08 PM »
Jimblob  I think that is a perfectly reasonable post some of the points which I would agree with. The main point I'd make initially  is that whilst you might not feel continually bashing the motorist is the answer nor is continually bashing and moaning about highways staff who do in the main a reasonable job and who more importantly are not allowed to defend themselves.  Less attacks on individuals just trying to do their jobs and moaning about them might lead to less bashing of motorists and a more constructive debate. For too many "let's attack highways staff" is a default position.
Points taken @wheels. The frustration however is that the consultation processes are flawed that supposedly allow for democratic decisions to be made. We have local councillors campaigning on the basis that they will push for the removal of measures on Windlehurst (ironic when once considers it was their actions that got them installed in the first place), they get a consultation confirming the wishes of the electorate (with a little help by members of the public admitedly whipping up support), only for us to be told that the councillors have no power or money to act on the results. Earlier consultations that brought about the measures in the first place were flawed because they only involved a small and select group of local residents who lived on Windlehurst itself who were terrifed that the bypass would mean a deluge of HGVs and rep-infested BMWs racing past their houses at all hours, who would quite clearly request that some form of mitigation was needed. (I don't disagree incidentally). So the only people I feel I can look to for solutions are the Subject Matter Experts (SMEs) who we employ to design and implement safer roads for us, who, seemingly at least, and despite ever-growing public opinion against speed humps, continue to install them. Perhaps them being unable to defend or answer for themselves is part of the problem, and if permitted to do so, they might suggest different options for speed mitigation as they'd have to stand by and answer for what they're tasked to implement. The frustration comes I think through the Highways Team's own fear of reprisal were they not seen to act on a request, from however small a minority, to make somewhere seemingly safer. The root cause of the problem is a minority of inconsiderate road users, the Highways Team are tasked with fixing this and yet the results penalise the majority of law-abiding and considerate road users but sadly don't guarantee a safer road. The Highways Team need the steer and budget to be given alternative tools to fulfill their remit rather than more lumps of tarmac. It would make their lives easier I'm sure and the outcome would be better for all. I have spoken in person and at length with members of the team and I understand their frustrations, they genuinely do believe they are doing the right thing!
It is a worry though when as an example of their expertise, it turns out that the speed cushions in Marple District Centre are probably illegal as they don't comply with The Highways (Road Humps Regulations 1999) and when the Highways Team knowingly ignored three of the recommendations in their own safety audit prior to them being installed. That sends a worrying message, to me at least about our Subject Matter Experts.
The solution here is political, but given the route for any political recourse appears to be non-existent, people will innevitably blame the departments who are seen to implement the measures they don't like and who are funded from our local taxation. If those measures are then sub-standard, ill-conceived or badly designed, then it's the designers of those schemes who naturally are the focal point for any complaints.
It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens
--- Woody Allen

GM

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Re: Windlehurst Road Traffic Calming Measures - Consultation
« Reply #115 on: August 13, 2021, 01:27:20 PM »
Calling out the complete lack of progress on the issue is not bashing council staff, they are after all employed through our rates and should be held accountable by our elected representatives.

The schemes they create have to show plus and minus points with the intended positive outcomes.

Surely if those outcomes aren't met, the overwhelming majority of the consultation response highlights that, then it should be removed/adapted.

And I think we can safety assume the Highways design department isn't just one work experience kid in a cupboard behind the photocopier.

wheels

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Re: Windlehurst Road Traffic Calming Measures - Consultation
« Reply #114 on: August 13, 2021, 11:29:37 AM »
Jimblob  I think that is a perfectly reasonable post some of the points which I would agree with. The main point I'd make initially  is that whilst you might not feel continually bashing the motorist is the answer nor is continually bashing and moaning about highways staff who do in the main a reasonable job and who more importantly are not allowed to defend themselves.  Less attacks on individuals just trying to do their jobs and moaning about them might lead to less bashing of motorists and a more constructive debate. For too many "let's attack highways staff" is a default position.

jimblob

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Re: Windlehurst Road Traffic Calming Measures - Consultation
« Reply #113 on: August 13, 2021, 10:36:53 AM »
I sense this debate is becoming far too polarised. The roads we have are for all to use and where all users respect and have equal consideration for all others. Sadly there will always be a minority who spoil it for the considerate majority, that applies to motorists as much as cyclist, horseriders etc. I'm predominently a motorist, I bought an electric car to help the environment a little, but I have been a keen runner and always slow or stop my car to give way to a runner at junctions if I'm turning and can slow a little to allow them to continue easily and safely. Similarly, when younger I was a cyclist and always give cyclists space, provided ofcourse that they do the same for me and don't think they have a higher priority than me or a right to use the entire road riding two or there abreast or to use the road when money has been spent on a cycle lane for them but they "choose" not to use it.
Improved behaviours are always going to be the solution and this is why places like the Netherlands and Norway have been successful in the adoption of mixed transportation, I've worked and travelled in both locations and they are simply more considerate! The other ingredient in these cases however has been money, and lots of it, often on roads too; sadly that's the part we're missing, we think we can do it on the cheap or can raise the money to do it by taxing the motorist. This approach however, will only serve to alienate the motorist, who, whether we like it or not currently constitutes by far and away the highest financial contributor to our infrastructure and also represents the majority of users. Within that use, most motorists are simply trying to get from A to B for a valid reason, a reason no greater or less valid than someone on a bicycle or walking. Add to that, that in a large number of cases, there simply is no viable alternative to their chosen mode of transport.
I've said this already in this thread, we need to spend money to create those viable alternatives. The answer is to improve and make the alternatives more appealing than the car, rather than make the car even less appealing than the limited and often impractical alternatives.
This thread seems to have gone a little of track. The Windlehurst Speed humps were installed as "mitigation measures" as a result of the new bypass, but what were we mitigating against, increased traffic, speed or both or just a perception of speed experienced by a handful of local residents and casued by an even smaller minority of inconsiderate motorists and a pot of money from the SEMMS project that needed to be spent that would appease those residents and also give the Highways Team a pet project, which as we know only too well, they love! Whatever the case, they don't work for the majority. The overriding conclusion from these seems to show that people now prefer to use a different route, Hoorah! they have worked; but only for that small handful of residents! But to what detriment to every one else? On one hand we build a £290m bypass to make car journeys easier and actually a little greener and then make it a road to nowhere by building a rollercoaster at one end of it that motorists will hate... madness! The answer was of course to build the whole bypass and connect it to the M60 but our green campaigners wouldn't like that because cars are the enemy and must be destroyed.
Then consider little old Marple and how it loves its heritage, its shops and cafes and how it wants visitors. You only get that if people can get in and out, we can't have it both ways.
There is no easy answer but I for one don't see bashing the motorist as the answer, speed humps damage cars, there's no denying that, they do increase polution, yes they do reduce speed, but not safely and certainly not fairly because as was pointed out by someone earlier in the thread, we don't all have to use wooden knives and forks because one person might use a knife to hurt someone somewhere, (although God forbid, I can see wooden spoons being made law one day). If that's our mindset, every 30mph road in the country should have speed humps.
It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens
--- Woody Allen

GM

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Re: Windlehurst Road Traffic Calming Measures - Consultation
« Reply #112 on: August 12, 2021, 04:40:48 PM »
How is that hostility?, I didn't say poorer riding.

wheels

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Re: Windlehurst Road Traffic Calming Measures - Consultation
« Reply #111 on: August 12, 2021, 02:12:36 PM »
Why the hostility to every other type of road user.

GM

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Re: Windlehurst Road Traffic Calming Measures - Consultation
« Reply #110 on: August 12, 2021, 01:25:09 PM »
My driving isn't too bad, I see plenty of poor driving and even poor riding, its more they look like Jeremy Vine wannabes.

Not as bad as the weird people I see face time calling as they're walking along the pavements or in the countryside.