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Cyberman

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Re: Safer Walking and Cycling
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2020, 10:50:03 AM »
Well said Andy. Agree 100%

Andy

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Re: Safer Walking and Cycling
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2020, 09:52:16 AM »
I always hesitate to reply to these threads, similar to brexit it seems to polarise people beyond any rational debate.

I'm a driver - I drive a lot for work, I spend a lot of time on the road and see some truly terrible driving. Every other person is on their phone, eating or generally ignoring the speed limit. Dan Bank is a prime example, the stack of traffic going down in the morning sees people staring at their phones and very few drivers do less than 35/40mph coming up.

interestingly having just spent quite a bit of cash on a car, I'll no longer pay any 'road tax' (i know that was abolished in the 30's)

Some drivers are great, courteous and sensible. Many are not. Many can be sensible one day and terrible the next.

When in the office I cycle. This trip is either a bike ride to Stockport and a train to London, then cycle across London. I also do a day a week in Horwich, the other side of Bolton, which is a 50 mile round trip. By bike.

I also live near the Middlewood Way. so see some terrible cycling, mainly be teenagers who haven't been taught how to ride on a road, or are carried away messing with their mates. On my ride through Manchester I also see people Cycling in a way I wouldn't - using pavements, turning left on red etc.

I've put the passage above to give some context to my thoughts. Hopefully you'll think i'm qualified to give my opinion based on by experience as someone who uses a bike as a form of transport rather than a recreational thing.

I think this thread was started to explore thoughts on cycling infrastructure. On my travels i get to see a lot, and Stockport has some of the best and worst. Around Marple we have virtually non existent infrastructure and it is a problem. It is a problem for cyclists, pedestrians and drivers.

If you build good, segregated cycle lanes then it removes bikes from the carriageway. It also removes cars from the carriageway as it enables short journeys to be done by bike. Not all of them, not everyone, not all year round, but even a handful would be a big improvement. This will require a cultural change, it has happened in other countries so is possible with some effort.

Cycle infrastructure won't solve the problems by themselves. We need a proper program of training delivered through schools to encourage better cycling, potentially backed up by enforcement.

Around here Salford has some great cycle lanes, Manchester has one down Oxford Road that is brilliant. This has meant that the flow of busses can increase. There have been recent planned improvements in Stockport, nothing for Marple which is disappointing. My focus for Marple wouldn't be to improve commuter routes to Stockport but rather improve the provision within Marple so children can get to schools, the pool by bike and people can pop to the shops easier. Compared to roads, cycling infrastructure is quite cheap. We could easily do something like Poynton, or the 'mini hollands' planned in Manchester. It would be a real step forward.

I'll also make a point about road positioning, i'll not quote select parts of the highway code but provide an example which may help those who don't cycle. Coming out of Marple to Stockport you reach a blind corner near Offerton. I always take 'primary position' on this corner. This means i'm in the centre of the lane and no cars can pass me. This is the point of me taking this position. It isn't an accident, or to frustrate you. It is to stop you overtaking me on a blind bend. The consequences of which for me could be fatal.

Which leads me to my final point. Cars do cause many more crashes and deaths than cyclists. Having had several near misses or close passes it can be very scary. I've spent hours on motorways crawling past horrific crashes - it isn't nice.

So, if you have reached this point, please - practice some tolerance with each other. Let's not get angry, aggressive - it isn't worth it.

Andy




shambles

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Re: Safer Walking and Cycling
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2020, 08:12:15 PM »
In response to rsh’s comments;
My Oxford English dictionary defines a ‘Cyclist’  as -  ‘a rider of a bicycle’.
The two young cyclists did move once they heard me behind them, one to the pavement on the left, the other to the pavement on the right !
Highway code Rule 112
The horn. Use only while your vehicle is moving and you need to warn other road users of your presence.
Highway code  (Cyclists) Rule 67
You should
be aware of traffic coming up behind you
•   
As for the cyclist coming towards me had his hands in his pockets !!!!!!
Highway code Rule 66
You should
•   keep both hands on the handlebars except when signalling or changing gear
Yes, there are bad male & female, car & van drivers. This I see regularly. An example is when I drive down station Road towards the traffic lights. Vehicles come steaming round the parked cars on the right up MY side of the road expecting me to give way.
If you are short of some bedtime reading try:-
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code

Condate

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Re: Safer Walking and Cycling
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2020, 06:45:16 PM »
No, most cyclist who want to do this simply don't want to die

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2011/aug/01/cyclist-take-the-lane

see stuff like this as to see WHY it's important (note, entirely justifiable language is used)

https://twitter.com/cyclinggrump/status/1275911321041715203

If you really think a bike is blocking you to upset you then you must have a very high opinion of yourself. I don't want to hold people up, but I do want to get home and if that means someone has to slow down momentarily then I'm ok with that, my safety is worth more than your time

When I am driving along and am moving out to give cyclists more that adequate room, I do not like them deliberately moving into my way. Given the vast space I leave them, they can only be being deliberately awkward. I was a cyclist myself for many years and always moved to the kerb to let drivers past. I don't necessarily expect them to do that these days, but I do not expect the extremely bad behaviour seen today. The contrast with horse riders is very noticeable. When I give them the same room (and slow down, as for cyclists) , I get a wave of thanks; not wilful obstruction. I have no more wish to hit a cyclist (or a horse) any more than they want to be hit.

I can only hope for some prosecutions of cyclists for lack of consideration for other road users. Obviously, if there are any drivers who do not drive with consideration for cyclists, then the same applies to them.
 

andrewbowden

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Re: Safer Walking and Cycling
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2020, 03:59:57 PM »
I did some rejigging of my text before posting, but managed to leave a sentance in the wrong place.  "Thankfully there were no pedestrians around" belonged with the first paragraph, thus...

I would say you're very fortunate then.  It was in the last week  when I arrived at a road junction (Albion Road/Buxton Road in New Mills) on my bike just as the lights were just turning red.  I stopped.  20 seconds later a car hurtled past me at break neck speed.  Thankfully there were no pedestrians around. 

And it was it's only about three months ago that I was stood at a crossing as a pedestrian, green man came on, I was about to step out and a car suddenly zoomed through despite the lights being on red.  If I hadn't noticed I would have been hospitalised, without a doubt. 
We should be thankful that most road users obey the rules and are courteous towards each other.  But there's a small minority who aren't.  Such as the absolute pillocks who have been belting down Hibbert Lane (for one example) recently.  There was a car last night I saw came down about 50, before abruptly breaking as the driver caught up with another car. 

And that's the thing.  Bike and a pedestrian hit each other, that's going to hurt.  But you stand a good chance of getting up again and going on your way.  Car hits a pedestrian at 30mph, there's a hospital job.   Much faster and the pedestrian's got a good chance of ending up in a coffin.

nbt

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Re: Safer Walking and Cycling
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2020, 02:39:56 PM »
I've long since lost count of the number of cyclists who ride at the side of the road until they hear a car coming, at which point they move to the middle of the road to block the car. This is on roads where there is plenty of room for both, but they clearly want to annoy the driver.

No, most cyclist who want to do this simply don't want to die

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2011/aug/01/cyclist-take-the-lane

see stuff like this as to see WHY it's important (note, entirely justifiable language is used)

https://twitter.com/cyclinggrump/status/1275911321041715203

If you really think a bike is blocking you to upset you then you must have a very high opinion of yourself. I don't want to hold people up, but I do want to get home and if that means someone has to slow down momentarily then I'm ok with that, my safety is worth more than your time
NBT: Notoriously Bad Typist

andrewbowden

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Re: Safer Walking and Cycling
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2020, 01:59:06 PM »
As a car driver and a pedestrian, I can't say that when a pedestrian I ever have any problem with cars (but I do with bikes).

I would say you're very fortunate then.  It was in the last week  when I arrived at a road junction (Albion Road/Buxton Road in New Mills) on my bike just as the lights were just turning red.  I stopped.  20 seconds later a car hurtled past me at break neck speed.

And it was it's only about three months ago that I was stood at a crossing as a pedestrian, green man came on, I was about to step out and a car suddenly zoomed through despite the lights being on red.  If I hadn't noticed I would have been hospitalised, without a doubt.  Thankfully there were no pedestrians around. 

We should be thankful that most road users obey the rules and are courteous towards each other.  But there's a small minority who aren't.  Such as the absolute pillocks who have been belting down Hibbert Lane (for one example) recently.  There was a car last night I saw came down about 50, before abruptly breaking as the driver caught up with another car. 

And that's the thing.  Bike and a pedestrian hit each other, that's going to hurt.  But you stand a good chance of getting up again and going on your way.  Car hits a pedestrian at 30mph, there's a hospital job.   Much faster and the pedestrian's got a good chance of ending up in a coffin.

Condate

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Re: Safer Walking and Cycling
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2020, 12:23:11 PM »
I've long since lost count of the number of cyclists who ride at the side of the road until they hear a car coming, at which point they move to the middle of the road to block the car. This is on roads where there is plenty of room for both, but they clearly want to annoy the driver. Similarly for cyclists who appear to resent and harass pedestrians and think only they are entitled to be there; exactly the attitude they say that car drivers have.

As a car driver and a pedestrian, I can't say that when a pedestrian I ever have any problem with cars (but I do with bikes).

Until all road users realise that all of them (including car drivers) are entitled to be on the road or path, then each group is going to be antagonistic to the others and that is not helpful.

 

rsh

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Re: Safer Walking and Cycling
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2020, 10:32:40 AM »
As usual a topic on safer cycling turns into an opportunity to trash-talk people trying to get around by not driving. I’ve been cycling on the towpath for 15 years and it’s always a pleasant experience for everyone involved, lots of smiles, hellos, thank yous to the bell - which as Deniseredmini rightly points out is a “someone behind you” alert not an “immediately get out of my way!” A tiny minority of people just like to be offended whatever you do.

Anyway the point I want to make is that if you’re not happy about cycling on shared (yes, SHARED) paths or on the roads, then join us. Campaign for actual cycle infrastructure that gives people a specific space to cycle for the journeys they need to make. Then we won’t “get in your way” and you might get wherever you’re going in your car that much quicker. Win-win, without the whinging.

The vast majority of drivers obey the rules and many are considerate towards other drivers, unlike cyclists who seem to think the rules do not apply to them.
Driving up Bowden Lane the other day the two young  cyclists did move once they heard me behind them, one to the pavement on the left, the other to the pavement on the right !
Quite frankly one of the most absurd posts I’ve ever seen on here, and that’s saying something. There’s not enough time in the world for my to list every misdemeanour by some drivers on here, though the bad ones are entirely, entirely the reason why roads like Strines are an absolute “nope” for me and the towpath it has to be. For the sake of me actually returning home to my loved ones alive. To be polite, if you expect people on bikes (a better term than “cyclists” as if we’re all avid obsessives physically attached to our mode of transport) to get out of your way, your driving style must be an absolute “shambles.”

Deniseredmini

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Re: Safer Walking and Cycling
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2020, 05:55:21 PM »
As a returning cyclist after a break of over forty years I have to say that I have thoroughly enjoyed the quiet roads during lockdown on which to get confident on the roads again.  Re the point about bells.  Both our bikes have bells and we always make a point of ringing them on approaching pedestrians on off road paths.  We ring them to let people know we are there, not to expect them to jump out of our way.  We always thank people when they move aside to let us through. We have frequently stopped cycling in order to let pedestrians pass when the towpath is too narrow.  I would prefer all bikes to have bells.  We were walking along the Sett Valley Trail the other day and were often startled by the bikes that came silently up behind us.  These bikes didn't have bells.  (Some towpaths are too narrow and we have stopped cycling on them)

CTCREP

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Re: Safer Walking and Cycling
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2020, 02:45:29 PM »
When I first posted the details of a system whereby everyone could easily  provide details of areas where Social Distancing requirements were difficult to achieve - for example the bollarded area on Stockport Road near the junction with Hollins Lane - and the areas where improvements could benefit  those willing cycle or walk to reduce their car use, I should have realised a certain number of people would ignore the potential benefits to the area as whole. It is unfortunate that a Cycling Organisation has had to bring issue to the fore, but then Britain is 50 years behind Europe when thinking beyond the motorist.

Marple is unable to reach its full potential largely because of the amount of traffic that is allowed to take precedence. Reduced vehicle use has created cleaner air, and suddenly walking and cycling have become viable propositions.  Marple Centre should be a place that people want to visit and pass the time of day, not somewhere to park the car then wait ages to cross the road before getting out again as quick as possible

Please take a look at the tool https://www.widenmypath.com/suggest/#11/53.4093/-2.0874  as it is beginning to show many of the problems with the roads and paths in Stockport that should be considered by our Council, so that Marple and the surrounding area could become a more pleasant and attractive place to live.

andrewbowden

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Re: Safer Walking and Cycling
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2020, 12:50:13 PM »
The vast majority of drivers obey the rules and many are considerate towards other drivers, unlike cyclists who seem to think the rules do not apply to them.
Driving up Bowden Lane the other day the two young  cyclists did move once they heard me behind them, one to the pavement on the left, the other to the pavement on the right !

The cyclist coming towards me had his hands in his pockets !!!!!!


Let me correct that for you.

The vast majority of road users - of all kinds - obey the rules.

A minority of road users - of all kinds - do not.

Yes there are idiots. But if you go out and study it properly, you will find most road users follow the rules.

And incidentally, on a minor residential road, why do you assume a car should have priority?

andrewbowden

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Re: Safer Walking and Cycling
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2020, 12:46:53 PM »
All bikes should have bells .they used to have when i was young .

Funnily enough it was the law for bikes to be supplied with a bell.  And then in 2011 the Tories decided to have a "bonfire of red tape" and guess what one of the rules they got rid of was...

andrewbowden

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Re: Safer Walking and Cycling
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2020, 12:45:26 PM »
Even walking on the canal is now dangerous occupation due to about 25% of the cyclists using it."I have rang my bell, so move".

Speaking as a walker and a cyclist, there seems to be a big gap in knowledge that pedestrians have priority on towpaths, not cyclists.  It's especially important given the often limited space.

Quote
On the roads, car drivers need to be educated on how to overtake cyclists properly (cyclists do not need 10 foot to the right of them).

Speaking as a driver and a cyclist, I appreciate drivers giving lots of space when passing, so I try to give plenty of space when passing cyclists myself.

And when there isn't enough space as a cyclist, I do my best to make sure I take up more space on the road to try and ensure drivers don't pass me unsafely.  As I did on Town Street last Saturday when there was no space due to parked cars.  So you can appreciate I was not happy when one driver decided they would try to squeeze through the remaining gap because they simply couldn't wait the 10 seconds it would take for me to clear the area.  There was just enough room that I didn't get knocked off my bike thankfully, but it is clear some drivers have no concept of how to pass cyclists safely, and a handful just don't care.

shambles

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Re: Safer Walking and Cycling
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2020, 11:27:44 AM »
The vast majority of drivers obey the rules and many are considerate towards other drivers, unlike cyclists who seem to think the rules do not apply to them.
Driving up Bowden Lane the other day the two young  cyclists did move once they heard me behind them, one to the pavement on the left, the other to the pavement on the right !

The cyclist coming towards me had his hands in his pockets !!!!!!