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Author Topic: Voting for Brexit  (Read 21567 times)

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tigerman

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #180 on: January 29, 2020, 03:01:06 PM »
Now Farage has stated that if Brexit "doesn't work out" then we can apply to re-join. You couldn't make it up!  At least Farage, Johnson and the rest now have the onerous task of trying to get back at least some of what we have lost by leaving the EU, plus there will no longer be any scapegoats for UK economic failure. Or will they try to blame the EU for not giving us what we, now as an outsider, will impossibly demand?

Dave

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #179 on: January 29, 2020, 02:17:34 PM »
The remainers LOST

We all lost, remainers and leaders alike. All 500 million people in the EU lost. The only winners were a small group of shadowy international financiers (some of whom gave us the 2008 world financial crash) who want to make even more money by turning the U.K. into a cheap-labour offshore sweatshop with low employment rights and inadequate environmental laws.  And of course their delightful friends Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin who see a united Europe standing up for freedom, democracy and the rule of law as a threat to their personal ambitions.

And because of that, 17.4 million gullible people were conned into voting for something which will make them poorer and (quite possibly, in the long run) less safe. So yes Amazon, we lost!

marpleexile

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #178 on: January 29, 2020, 08:43:51 AM »
The remainers LOST .

Correct, well done. Your point is?

Rothers

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #177 on: January 29, 2020, 08:41:29 AM »
No society and the country has last.

Evidence of this please...

wheels

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #176 on: January 28, 2020, 09:20:28 PM »
No society and the country has last.

amazon

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #175 on: January 28, 2020, 07:46:24 PM »
Only 5 more days go and then NHS funding will be increased by £350m per week.
The remainers LOST .

wheels

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #174 on: January 28, 2020, 12:24:15 AM »
Only 5 more days go and then NHS funding will be increased by £350m per week.

Cyberman

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #173 on: January 27, 2020, 11:19:46 PM »
Our success in almost reaching the sunny uplands of a golden post-Brexit era has been acknowledged...

https://www.lcdviews.com/2020/01/18/united-kingdom-wins-darwin-award/


If this is fake news we certainly should have won it.

Melancholyflower

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #172 on: January 13, 2020, 10:39:32 PM »

I wonder, could you explain how I or any other member of the electorate 'boot out' the current Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport and stop them from having any involvement in our democracy?!


My full statement - that an unpopular government (including ministers) can be booted out after votes are cast - is unchanged by your straw man.  Nicky Morgan (or whatever she's going to be called) may well serve 5 years in Johnson's government, but she won't then serve another 5 years in a Labour replacement.  Therefore she - as a member of the govt - would be booted out of office.

Then again I might be wrong. Perhaps you could entertain me with examples of any peers that have kept governmental positions in a change of red/blue government since we've had universal suffrage?


It's strikes me as bizarre that so many brexiteers scream democracy and then conveniently forget the 790+ un-elected mates of current and former prime minsters that still arbitrate on all sorts of things.


Interesting you inferring that my posts are "screams". These are tactics usually employed to portray people who disagree with you as irrational and hysterical. Benefit of the doubt given this time.

You may care to examine my earlier posts which show that I do not "forget" the House of Lords. For your benefit I'll repeat - they are unelected, but they don't set legislative agenda. They can't prevent legislation from passing in a well organised session. EU commissioners *do* set the agenda. If you dispute this, show how I am wrong with facts and argument.


If your issue is with direct election or representative forms of government (or perceived lack thereof) then you should join the campaign for electoral reform.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/campaigns/elected-house-of-lords/#action-cta-anchor

I don't want electoral reform in the UK. I don't really want constitutional reform in the UK.  The Lords was a far better chamber before Tony's Cronies came along (a deliberate Blair tactic to gain a majority), and the statistics show that Labour have appointed their own peers at least as equally as the Tories since 1997 (it may even be higher).  An elected second chamber would be a huge mistake.

I just want our country to govern itself. The abject recent failure and weakness of the two major parties (in fact the entire political establishment) has been tremendously damaging to the constitutional stability - and therefore politics.  But that's not the fault of the two-party electoral system which has a history of delivering, on the whole, decisive majority government. 

I certainly have no interest in trying to reform the EU electoral system. In any case, I'd love to hear your thoughts on how I'd go about doing it even if that were possible (I'd take a bet that it isn't!).

Andy

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #171 on: January 13, 2020, 02:37:20 PM »
SNIP

We certainly know that in this country an unpopular government (that's the Prime Minister and Ministers of the Crown) can rightly be booted unceremoniously out within 24 hours of votes being cast, whilst pretty much any UK law could be repealed at a stroke if a new government with a mandate so wished. Thankfully past EU laws can now be repealed after Article 50 was triggered. Though any government with the actual spine to do this is unlikely.

SNIP

Let's get back to good old fashioned Parliamentary sovereignty. Any step there is in the right direction.


I wonder, could you explain how I or any other member of the electorate 'boot out' the current Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport and stop them from having any involvement in our democracy?!

It's strikes me as bizarre that so many brexiteers scream democracy and then conveniently forget the 790+ un-elected mates of current and former prime minsters that still arbitrate on all sorts of things.

If your issue is with direct election or representative forms of government (or perceived lack thereof) then you should join the campaign for electoral reform.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/campaigns/elected-house-of-lords/#action-cta-anchor


Melancholyflower

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #170 on: January 12, 2020, 10:52:42 PM »
One more try.........  As I have already explained, Melancholy, the 28 European Commissioners (soon to be 27, sadly) are each appointed (or "appointed" if you prefer ;-) by the democratically elected government of their own member state.  The commissioners propose legislation to the elected EU parliament, which considers it and approves it (or not).

In the UK, the equivalents of EU Commissioners are our Ministers of the Crown, who are also appointed, in their case by our unelected monarch, on the recommendation of our elected Prime Minister. Ministers propose legislation to the UK parliament, which considers it and approves it (or not).

They are slightly different processes but they are both undoubtedly democratic.   If there is one that is more democratic than the other, it is the EU procedure, because the decisions of the EU Parliament cannot be changed by an unelected upper chamber.

But the EP's decisions are on proposals made by an unelected executive. We keep coming back to this, don't we?

And who are the commissioners accountable to? Can they be voted out if the public don't like the laws that they propose? Can their directives that become law be repealed by the member countries once they've been enacted? Do tell. 

We certainly know that in this country an unpopular government (that's the Prime Minister and Ministers of the Crown) can rightly be booted unceremoniously out within 24 hours of votes being cast, whilst pretty much any UK law could be repealed at a stroke if a new government with a mandate so wished. Thankfully past EU laws can now be repealed after Article 50 was triggered. Though any government with the actual spine to do this is unlikely.

And you shouldn't try and distort the nature of UK's parliamentary democracy by trying to infer that the Queen's position is anything other than ceremonial.  I'd invite you to specify the last time she refused to appoint a Minister to Government (clue - you won't be able to because she hasn't).

Quite apart from all this, we haven't even begun to discuss the actual practical effect of the EU's wonderful democracy at work. So it can transpire that an unelected commissioner from that great farming island of Malta could have equal influence on the formulation and outcome of UK agricultural law than our own unelected UK commissioner, and the votes of the Luxembourgian and Lithuanian people (all in huge turnouts of course :-)) can elect EU members of Parliament to vote it through.

Did I mention Malta?  Ah yes, the curiosity of the European Parliament which decides how many seats a country can get.  Malta has 6 MEPs from an electorate of 340,000. The UK has 73 MEPs from an electorate of 47,500,000. Which essentially means that Maltese voters have over 10 times more power than UK voters.  Democratic? You decide.

And let's not even mention the great British Remainer public that's so passionate and engaged about the EU that the last European elections to be held before the referendum bagged a whopping 35.6% turnout, all under a PR system where every vote counts. In fact, the entire turnout of that vote would still have lost the referendum even if they'd all voted Remain. Though when you consider that UKIP was the biggest party that seems remote!

Let's get back to good old fashioned Parliamentary sovereignty. Any step there is in the right direction.

Dave

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #169 on: January 11, 2020, 03:40:05 PM »
We can only now do small things but one of the most powerful is to withhold our money from any national and local Marple business that supports Brexit.

Never thought I would hear myself saying this, but it’s a pity we haven’t got a Wetherspoons in Marple. Then we could boycott it 😏

amazon

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #168 on: January 11, 2020, 10:44:51 AM »
“ your another loser dave you dont like it”

I seem to recall

2016 - You lost get over it
2017 - You lost get over it
2018 - You lost get over it
2019 - You've definitely lost get over it
2020 - We are all in this together,  lets come together to make this work.

I don't think so, you wanted this, you make it work you own it and without our help or support. 

We can only now do small things but one of the most powerful is to withhold our money from any national and local Marple business that supports Brexit. Superdrug are an obvious national company to not give our money to in Marple.
Ok dont suport superdrug they close another empty shop in marple great thinking have  you not noticed the empty shops now in marple .

wheels

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #167 on: January 11, 2020, 09:33:18 AM »
“ your another loser dave you dont like it”

I seem to recall

2016 - You lost get over it
2017 - You lost get over it
2018 - You lost get over it
2019 - You've definitely lost get over it
2020 - We are all in this together,  lets come together to make this work.

I don't think so, you wanted this, you make it work you own it and without our help or support. 

We can only now do small things but one of the most powerful is to withhold our money from any national and local Marple business that supports Brexit. Superdrug are an obvious national company to not give our money to in Marple.

amazon

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #166 on: January 10, 2020, 09:30:45 PM »
“ your another loser dave you dont like it”

As ever, Amazon, it is a delight to bask in the radiance of your charm 😏
I  ;)no Happy new year .