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Author Topic: Voting for Brexit  (Read 17138 times)

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Melancholyflower

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #172 on: January 13, 2020, 10:39:32 PM »

I wonder, could you explain how I or any other member of the electorate 'boot out' the current Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport and stop them from having any involvement in our democracy?!


My full statement - that an unpopular government (including ministers) can be booted out after votes are cast - is unchanged by your straw man.  Nicky Morgan (or whatever she's going to be called) may well serve 5 years in Johnson's government, but she won't then serve another 5 years in a Labour replacement.  Therefore she - as a member of the govt - would be booted out of office.

Then again I might be wrong. Perhaps you could entertain me with examples of any peers that have kept governmental positions in a change of red/blue government since we've had universal suffrage?


It's strikes me as bizarre that so many brexiteers scream democracy and then conveniently forget the 790+ un-elected mates of current and former prime minsters that still arbitrate on all sorts of things.


Interesting you inferring that my posts are "screams". These are tactics usually employed to portray people who disagree with you as irrational and hysterical. Benefit of the doubt given this time.

You may care to examine my earlier posts which show that I do not "forget" the House of Lords. For your benefit I'll repeat - they are unelected, but they don't set legislative agenda. They can't prevent legislation from passing in a well organised session. EU commissioners *do* set the agenda. If you dispute this, show how I am wrong with facts and argument.


If your issue is with direct election or representative forms of government (or perceived lack thereof) then you should join the campaign for electoral reform.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/campaigns/elected-house-of-lords/#action-cta-anchor

I don't want electoral reform in the UK. I don't really want constitutional reform in the UK.  The Lords was a far better chamber before Tony's Cronies came along (a deliberate Blair tactic to gain a majority), and the statistics show that Labour have appointed their own peers at least as equally as the Tories since 1997 (it may even be higher).  An elected second chamber would be a huge mistake.

I just want our country to govern itself. The abject recent failure and weakness of the two major parties (in fact the entire political establishment) has been tremendously damaging to the constitutional stability - and therefore politics.  But that's not the fault of the two-party electoral system which has a history of delivering, on the whole, decisive majority government. 

I certainly have no interest in trying to reform the EU electoral system. In any case, I'd love to hear your thoughts on how I'd go about doing it even if that were possible (I'd take a bet that it isn't!).

Andy

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #171 on: January 13, 2020, 02:37:20 PM »
SNIP

We certainly know that in this country an unpopular government (that's the Prime Minister and Ministers of the Crown) can rightly be booted unceremoniously out within 24 hours of votes being cast, whilst pretty much any UK law could be repealed at a stroke if a new government with a mandate so wished. Thankfully past EU laws can now be repealed after Article 50 was triggered. Though any government with the actual spine to do this is unlikely.

SNIP

Let's get back to good old fashioned Parliamentary sovereignty. Any step there is in the right direction.


I wonder, could you explain how I or any other member of the electorate 'boot out' the current Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport and stop them from having any involvement in our democracy?!

It's strikes me as bizarre that so many brexiteers scream democracy and then conveniently forget the 790+ un-elected mates of current and former prime minsters that still arbitrate on all sorts of things.

If your issue is with direct election or representative forms of government (or perceived lack thereof) then you should join the campaign for electoral reform.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/campaigns/elected-house-of-lords/#action-cta-anchor


Melancholyflower

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #170 on: January 12, 2020, 10:52:42 PM »
One more try.........  As I have already explained, Melancholy, the 28 European Commissioners (soon to be 27, sadly) are each appointed (or "appointed" if you prefer ;-) by the democratically elected government of their own member state.  The commissioners propose legislation to the elected EU parliament, which considers it and approves it (or not).

In the UK, the equivalents of EU Commissioners are our Ministers of the Crown, who are also appointed, in their case by our unelected monarch, on the recommendation of our elected Prime Minister. Ministers propose legislation to the UK parliament, which considers it and approves it (or not).

They are slightly different processes but they are both undoubtedly democratic.   If there is one that is more democratic than the other, it is the EU procedure, because the decisions of the EU Parliament cannot be changed by an unelected upper chamber.

But the EP's decisions are on proposals made by an unelected executive. We keep coming back to this, don't we?

And who are the commissioners accountable to? Can they be voted out if the public don't like the laws that they propose? Can their directives that become law be repealed by the member countries once they've been enacted? Do tell. 

We certainly know that in this country an unpopular government (that's the Prime Minister and Ministers of the Crown) can rightly be booted unceremoniously out within 24 hours of votes being cast, whilst pretty much any UK law could be repealed at a stroke if a new government with a mandate so wished. Thankfully past EU laws can now be repealed after Article 50 was triggered. Though any government with the actual spine to do this is unlikely.

And you shouldn't try and distort the nature of UK's parliamentary democracy by trying to infer that the Queen's position is anything other than ceremonial.  I'd invite you to specify the last time she refused to appoint a Minister to Government (clue - you won't be able to because she hasn't).

Quite apart from all this, we haven't even begun to discuss the actual practical effect of the EU's wonderful democracy at work. So it can transpire that an unelected commissioner from that great farming island of Malta could have equal influence on the formulation and outcome of UK agricultural law than our own unelected UK commissioner, and the votes of the Luxembourgian and Lithuanian people (all in huge turnouts of course :-)) can elect EU members of Parliament to vote it through.

Did I mention Malta?  Ah yes, the curiosity of the European Parliament which decides how many seats a country can get.  Malta has 6 MEPs from an electorate of 340,000. The UK has 73 MEPs from an electorate of 47,500,000. Which essentially means that Maltese voters have over 10 times more power than UK voters.  Democratic? You decide.

And let's not even mention the great British Remainer public that's so passionate and engaged about the EU that the last European elections to be held before the referendum bagged a whopping 35.6% turnout, all under a PR system where every vote counts. In fact, the entire turnout of that vote would still have lost the referendum even if they'd all voted Remain. Though when you consider that UKIP was the biggest party that seems remote!

Let's get back to good old fashioned Parliamentary sovereignty. Any step there is in the right direction.

Dave

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #169 on: January 11, 2020, 03:40:05 PM »
We can only now do small things but one of the most powerful is to withhold our money from any national and local Marple business that supports Brexit.

Never thought I would hear myself saying this, but it’s a pity we haven’t got a Wetherspoons in Marple. Then we could boycott it 😏

amazon

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #168 on: January 11, 2020, 10:44:51 AM »
“ your another loser dave you dont like it”

I seem to recall

2016 - You lost get over it
2017 - You lost get over it
2018 - You lost get over it
2019 - You've definitely lost get over it
2020 - We are all in this together,  lets come together to make this work.

I don't think so, you wanted this, you make it work you own it and without our help or support. 

We can only now do small things but one of the most powerful is to withhold our money from any national and local Marple business that supports Brexit. Superdrug are an obvious national company to not give our money to in Marple.
Ok dont suport superdrug they close another empty shop in marple great thinking have  you not noticed the empty shops now in marple .

wheels

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #167 on: January 11, 2020, 09:33:18 AM »
“ your another loser dave you dont like it”

I seem to recall

2016 - You lost get over it
2017 - You lost get over it
2018 - You lost get over it
2019 - You've definitely lost get over it
2020 - We are all in this together,  lets come together to make this work.

I don't think so, you wanted this, you make it work you own it and without our help or support. 

We can only now do small things but one of the most powerful is to withhold our money from any national and local Marple business that supports Brexit. Superdrug are an obvious national company to not give our money to in Marple.

amazon

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #166 on: January 10, 2020, 09:30:45 PM »
“ your another loser dave you dont like it”

As ever, Amazon, it is a delight to bask in the radiance of your charm 😏
I  ;)no Happy new year .

Dave

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #165 on: January 10, 2020, 09:05:21 PM »
“ your another loser dave you dont like it”

As ever, Amazon, it is a delight to bask in the radiance of your charm 😏

marpleexile

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #164 on: January 10, 2020, 06:33:11 PM »
your another loser dave you dont like it .

No we don't. Why should/would we?

amazon

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #163 on: January 10, 2020, 04:26:10 PM »
Wragg likes to boast of his interest in education. I believe he was a teacher for a short time, and in the last parliament he served as a member of the backbench education select committee.

But all that obviously counts for nothing, because he’s a scorched-earth Brexiteer and everything is secondary to that.

Sad times 😕your another loser dave you dont like it .

Dave

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #162 on: January 10, 2020, 01:32:20 PM »
Wragg likes to boast of his interest in education. I believe he was a teacher for a short time, and in the last parliament he served as a member of the backbench education select committee.

But all that obviously counts for nothing, because he’s a scorched-earth Brexiteer and everything is secondary to that.

Sad times 😕

wheels

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #161 on: January 09, 2020, 09:12:49 AM »
I see William Wragg has voted to remove the rights of Students to take part in Erasmus, an extraordinary programme of trans-European educational exchange, from which millions benefited over the years.

How sad that our children and grandchildren will no longer have that opportunity. Of course the wealthy will be able to afford to pay for their children and grandchildren to study abroad. 😡

Dave

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #160 on: January 07, 2020, 02:14:59 PM »
the unelected Commission/civil service proposes legislation that is approved by the European Parliament, which is the wrong way round to the way we do it here in the UK 

One more try.........  As I have already explained, Melancholy, the 28 European Commissioners (soon to be 27, sadly) are each appointed (or "appointed" if you prefer ;-) by the democratically elected government of their own member state.  The commissioners propose legislation to the elected EU parliament, which considers it and approves it (or not).

In the UK, the equivalents of EU Commissioners are our Ministers of the Crown, who are also appointed, in their case by our unelected monarch, on the recommendation of our elected Prime Minister.   Ministers propose legislation to the UK parliament, which considers it and approves it (or not).

They are slightly different processes but they are both undoubtedly democratic.   If there is one that is more democratic than the other, it is the EU procedure, because the decisions of the EU Parliament cannot be changed by an unelected upper chamber. 

Melancholyflower

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #159 on: January 06, 2020, 08:45:18 PM »
Quote from: wheels on November 10, 2019, 07:22:02 PM
I wonder why we don't have the blue passport brigade clamoring for us to leave the un-elected, un-accountable, undemocratic NATO.

Perhaps because NATO is not a political alliance, but a military one.  Its raison d'etre died with the Soviet Union, but vested interests kept it going. 

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wheels, see above, I answered you two months ago. An entirely separate matter.


Can you explain why you want to take my and others citizenship away, why you what to remove my freedom of movement and for no measurable benefit.

Was this directed at me? If so, can you point me to where I said that, please?


A bit of light reading for Melancholy 😏. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseupr/2019/02/19/is-the-european-union-governed-by-unelected-bureaucrats/

Dave posts links without bothering to respond properly to what I've said. It's also clear he hasn't even read it properly.  If he had, he'd note that the writer (apparently an LSE graduate - not exactly Michel Barnier), attempts to argue that the Commission is not an unelected bureaucracy, then in the next sentence admits that "technically" it is, er, an "unelected bureaucracy"!

I wonder what her class of degree was...

She confirms that the Commission proposes EU legislation.  She also acknowledges that each Commissioner is appointed. So, in fact, there's nothing in the article which disproves anything I've said.  It also helpfully confirms my previous point that the unelected Commission/civil service proposes legislation that is approved by the European Parliament, which is the wrong way round to the way we do it here in the UK.

I'd like to learn of any law passed in this country which was proposed by our civil service (Clue - You won't find one).

Try again, Dave ;)

wheels

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #158 on: January 06, 2020, 10:36:14 AM »
Isn't NATO run by unelected faceless bureaucracts? Isn't it time those who voted Leave started to call for our withdrawal from this organisation that could involve us in in a war without even asking us or do we have the usual leave double standards about this.