Michelle Reynolds Podiatrist, Marple

Author Topic: Voting for Brexit  (Read 8466 times)

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Dave

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #70 on: November 14, 2019, 05:09:21 PM »
The difference could be between a complete severance - whereby you have 100% control over the borders and 100% control over any trade agreements you make, and 100% control over any laws that you make (an actual nation state in the true sense), or a lower vassal hanging on like a limpet, still stuck in the single market and customs union (which seems to be what Labour wants) and basically still following EU rules.

OK Melancholy, fair enough. Those are two possible variants of Brexit - if you like, the hardest and the softest, and of course there are many others in between. So using each of those two scenarios as the basis for your answers, can you deal with stusmith's question: please describe how your life or those of your children or grand children will improve if we leave the EU.

Why is the EU any better at freedom and democracy than anywhere else?

Because we invented it, and spread it all round the world.  Democracy, from the Greek 'demos' - the people. The people elect the government.  It's not perfect, but as Churchill said, ' democracy is the worst form of government except for all the rest'.

Sadly we're still at "opinion" stage because of the incompetence of our political class and the way they have behaved. That's basically because they didn't want it.

Agreed that they have been extraordinarily incompetent.  But that's not because they didn't want Brexit. On the contrary, they eventually got around to voting for it on 21 October!  But Prime Minister Johnson then pulled the bill and called a General Election. 

The problem isn't that MPs don't want Brexit. The problem is that they can't agree on the sort of Brexit they want, and they will not compromise.  That's why we are where we are.   

nbt

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2019, 11:37:04 AM »
as usual all we get is the mantra and no actual thought. what rules do you want to set? why can you not set them now? what happens when the rules "we" set mean  we can;t trade with our current markets?
NBT: Notoriously Bad Typist

amazon

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #68 on: November 14, 2019, 11:20:55 AM »
That's a completely fatuous comparison. Brexit is more akin to Manchester United deciding they don't want to play in the Premier League any more and withdrawing, only to start trying to negotiate a series of matches against individual clubs

We have control over our borders already. Show me how we don't? Remember, freedom of movement doesn't mean freedom to stay - under current EU lesgislation, we are permitted to require people to return to theor ountry of origin after a certain perdion of time if they are not empliyed and contributing to society. The fact that the UK government have chosen not to implement these rules (unlike, say,  Austria), is a problem with OUR government, not the EU.

With WHOM are we going to form trade agreements ? Our biggest trading partner is the EU, they're right on our doorstep and we already have a zero tax agreement with them, that we're now hoping to rip up in the vain hope that as a single player we MIGHT be able to get a better deal than a major bloc - oh and don't forget that given we will have to continue trading with the EU when brexit does happen (there's no way we could afford to stop trade), we will have to continue abiding by the rules and standards they set, but we will have no longer have any say. It beggars belief, truly.


In essence, Russia. You may have see it mentioned in the news if you've been paying attention. If you haven't seen that, I wonder what else you've missed

It isn't the only bastion, as you well know, but don't say as it does't serve the point you're trying to make.
Of course they can, but as the saying goes - together we stand, divided we fall. It's much better to stand united and support each other as part of a single group than it is to try to meet separately for each minor point

You still haven't pointed out the actual concrete benefits, but have  - again - highlighted some negative points
Out Out Out we can set our own rules then

nbt

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #67 on: November 14, 2019, 09:04:50 AM »
How will Manchester United perform after they sign several as yet unknown players in the January window?

That's a completely fatuous comparison. Brexit is more akin to Manchester United deciding they don't want to play in the Premier League any more and withdrawing, only to start trying to negotiate a series of matches against individual clubs


The difference could be between a complete severance - whereby you have 100% control over the borders and 100% control over any trade agreements you make, and 100% control over any laws that you make (an actual nation state in the true sense), or a lower vassal hanging on like a limpet, still stuck in the single market and customs union (which seems to be what Labour wants) and basically still following EU rules.

We have control over our borders already. Show me how we don't? Remember, freedom of movement doesn't mean freedom to stay - under current EU lesgislation, we are permitted to require people to return to theor ountry of origin after a certain perdion of time if they are not empliyed and contributing to society. The fact that the UK government have chosen not to implement these rules (unlike, say,  Austria), is a problem with OUR government, not the EU.

With WHOM are we going to form trade agreements ? Our biggest trading partner is the EU, they're right on our doorstep and we already have a zero tax agreement with them, that we're now hoping to rip up in the vain hope that as a single player we MIGHT be able to get a better deal than a major bloc - oh and don't forget that given we will have to continue trading with the EU when brexit does happen (there's no way we could afford to stop trade), we will have to continue abiding by the rules and standards they set, but we will have no longer have any say. It beggars belief, truly.


Who is threatening freedom and democracy in Europe?

In essence, Russia. You may have see it mentioned in the news if you've been paying attention. If you haven't seen that, I wonder what else you've missed


Why is the EU the only seeming bastion against this threat?
It isn't the only bastion, as you well know, but don't say as it does't serve the point you're trying to make.

Cannot countries negotiate together without an overarching bureaucracy? 
Of course they can, but as the saying goes - together we stand, divided we fall. It's much better to stand united and support each other as part of a single group than it is to try to meet separately for each minor point

You still haven't pointed out the actual concrete benefits, but have  - again - highlighted some negative points
NBT: Notoriously Bad Typist

Melancholyflower

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #66 on: November 13, 2019, 10:55:58 PM »
Melancholyflower makes several points that are basically wrong.

stusmith, then you'll be able to show - factually and without opinion - how and why my points are wrong?

Can you explain how we are going to be better off after Brexit - only facts please, not opinions or hopes.

Facts are impossible without knowing what kind of Brexit we will get. How will Manchester United perform after they sign several as yet unknown players in the January window?

Sadly we're still at "opinion" stage because of the incompetence of our political class and the way they have behaved. That's basically because they didn't want it.

The difference could be between a complete severance - whereby you have 100% control over the borders and 100% control over any trade agreements you make, and 100% control over any laws that you make (an actual nation state in the true sense), or a lower vassal hanging on like a limpet, still stuck in the single market and customs union (which seems to be what Labour wants) and basically still following EU rules.

Dave - I'm glad you're saying that everyone is in danger of taking peace for granted, and not just people who voted for Brexit, for example!  Yes, there were strong impulses against war from many people after 1945, but not just from Jean Monnet and the Benelux "founding fathers".   *No-one* wanted more war.

Who is threatening freedom and democracy in Europe? Why is the EU the only seeming bastion against this threat? Cannot countries negotiate together without an overarching bureaucracy? 

Why is the EU any better at freedom and democracy than anywhere else? Given its track record of ignoring "negative" referenda results against the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties for example (until they curiously came up with results that it approved), given the bullying of Greece so it wouldn't leave the Eurozone, given the Council pushes decisions through QMV even if some countries don't agree with them, and given the EU Directives that flood into this country, how is that democratic?

stusmith

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #65 on: November 11, 2019, 06:21:03 PM »
Melancholyflower makes several points that are basically wrong.

However, what Melancholyflower hasn't done is answer the most pertinent point raised:

 Insert Quote

it is interesting that Brexit supporters cannot explain or describe how their lives or those of their children or grand children will improve if we leave the EU

Can you explain how we are going to be better off after  Brexit - only facts please, not opinions or hopes.

Dave

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #64 on: November 11, 2019, 06:19:14 PM »
Explain who is taking it for granted, and how?

'It' in Melancholy's question refers to peace. I had written 'those of us who were born in the years following WW2 have lived out our entire lives in the longest continuous period of peace between the countries of Western Europe for 2,000 years. We must never ever take that for granted.'

To answer Melancholy's question, I think we are all in danger of taking peace for granted. The vast majority of the UK population have never known anything different, so it's hardly surprising.

But our parents and grandparents lived though the most terrible times. Mine never talked about it much - maybe blotting it out is a good way to cope. But you've only got to read about the Nazi genocide in the 1930s and early 40s, or of the astonishing loss of life in WW1, to realise how powerful and heartfelt was the motivation of the EU's founding fathers.  Nearly 20,000 young British soldiers (some barely out of their teens) were killed on just one day, 1 July 1916, the first day of the Battle of the Somme. Never again!

But as one of those founding fathers (Winston Churchill) famously said, 'those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it'.  There are wars going on all over the world, right now - in Syria, Yemen, and Afghanistan, of course, but also in several Africa countries. And we in Europe could so easily find ourselves sliding into war again.  So we should never take peace for granted. 

The European values of freedom and democracy, which are under threat from elsewhere in the world and even, to a lesser extent, from parts of the EU itself, are so important, and breaking up the EU would be a real threat to our capacity to uphold them.   

I would urge anyone who still wants Brexit to reflect on one question: why do Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin want Brexit? 

andrewbowden

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2019, 02:16:54 PM »
Absolutely nothing to do with the EU.  It was domestic decision taken at the time.

Just for the state of clarity, whilst the EEC had measurement directives from the early days, we were already heading to metric when we joined.  The first EEC directive on measurements was completely inline with existing UK government policy of moving to metric.  We'd made that decision. 

When the pace of metrication began to slow down in the late 1970s, the UK asked - and got - several exemptions that it wanted on the process.  Which is why we still buy beer in pints, and have road signs in yards and miles.

If we hadn't been in the process of converting to metric, it's quite possible that the EEC's measurement directives would have been worded differently.  Because we had say in these things...

andrewbowden

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2019, 01:58:16 PM »
The comment I'd like to make would just cause hassle for the moderators.

I'm amazed at what gets people wound up - have things really gone so wrong for people that they are scared of millimetres?

#MarpleMetricResistance .

Here's a fun fact.  Imperial measurements in this country are officially defined in metric and have been since 1985.  For example, all imperial lengths are defined in terms of the Yard.  But the yard itself is defined as 0.9144 metres.

It was also this act that made metric the default in retail, and that stopped the use of things being sold in pints apart from beer, cider and re-usable milk bottles.

Absolutely nothing to do with the EU.  It was domestic decision taken at the time. 

Andy

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2019, 01:35:10 PM »
The comment I'd like to make would just cause hassle for the moderators.

I'm amazed at what gets people wound up - have things really gone so wrong for people that they are scared of millimetres?

#MarpleMetricResistance .
 


The ability to allow labelling of products in Imperial units only is very important. For me, getting rid of compulsory use of the hated metric system (born of the French Revolution and the ideas which inspired it), would be reason enough to leave the EU.


Melancholyflower

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #60 on: November 10, 2019, 09:45:18 PM »
I wonder why we don't have the blue passport brigade clamoring for us to leave the un-elected, un-accountable, undemocratic NATO.

Perhaps because NATO is not a political alliance, but a military one.  Its raison d'etre died with the Soviet Union, but vested interests kept it going. 

This can’t be said too often, especially on this day (Remembrance Sunday) of all days. Those of us who were born in the years following WW2 have lived out our entire lives in the longest continuous period of peace between the countries of Western Europe for 2,000 years. We must never ever take that for granted.

Explain who is taking it for granted, and how?

For thousands of years we have been a sovereign nation making our own laws. We still do. Anyone who thinks different is sadly deluded.

Since joining the EU or EEC as it was, we have agreed to a set of common standards with 27 friendly, neighbouring countries to enable us to trade together, to move freely in these countries and to live in peace - I think that's pretty damn good!!!


It is stretching things even to imply that the formation of the EU in and of itself was the sole reason that "Western Europe" hasn't been at war with itself.  There were many other co-international initiatives that were equally desirous of "peace and prosperity". EFTA, for example (before it was outmuscled by the EU).

The mountain of EU Directives and Regulations you call "a set of common standards" has technically been enacted by UK Parliament, but there's nothing sovereign about it. They are transposed into our law whether we "agree" or not.

I don't know about marmalade or bananas, but EU membership destroyed our Fisheries industry as well as irreparably harming fish stocks in the North Sea which was an ecological disaster. The meat industry was harmed by the senseless destruction of abattoirs as a direct result of EU interference, which many feel led to the foot and mouth epidemic in 2001 because cattle had to be transported further than before, and on a larger scale. When the epidemic did strike, EU legislation forbade all the effective preventative measures we could have taken based on lessons of the previous 1960s outbreak, which led to the senseless pre-emptive culling. An absolute unmitigated disaster.  Farming...  once we were the most efficient industry in Europe (before membership of course), before we cut our hands off by agreeing to the nonsensical CAP.

I can provide many more examples if you wish. The whole Brexit / Remain argument has never been waged on the terms it should have been.

stusmith

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2019, 08:40:03 PM »
Apologies

earlier posts refer to 'membership of the Union internationale des chemins de fer and the Union postale universelle'

The quote from a previous post seems appropriate:

Nothing is infinite, except the universe and stupid people, and sometimes, I doubt the universe."


stusmith

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #58 on: November 10, 2019, 08:26:55 PM »
it is interesting that Brexit supporters cannot explain or describe how their lives or those of their children or grand children will improve if we leave the EU. They always come up with strange things that really are nonsense - marmalade !!!! bananas !!!! - incredible.

For thousands of years we have been a sovereign nation making our own laws. We still do. Anyone who thinks different is sadly deluded.
 Since joining the EU or EEC as it was, we have agreed to a set of common standards with 27 friendly, neighbouring countries to enable us to trade together, to move freely in these countries and to live in peace - I think that's pretty damn good!!!

If Brexit can improve on this please explain how ?

wheels

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #57 on: November 10, 2019, 07:22:02 PM »
I wonder why we don't have the blue passport brigade clamoring for us to leave the un-elected, un-accountable, undemocratic  NATO. 

Spending millions of our Euros/Pounds/Zlotys or whatever on schemes we in Marple have never been asked to endorse.

Harry

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #56 on: November 10, 2019, 04:54:09 PM »
This can’t be said too often, especially on this day (Remembrance Sunday) of all days. Those of us who were born in the years following WW2 have lived out our entire lives in the longest continuous period of peace between the countries of Western Europe for 2,000 years. We must never ever take that for granted.

Yes. We have a lot to thank NATO for. It's just a shame that so few countries honour their commitment to it.
"Nothing is infinite, except the universe and stupid people, and sometimes, I doubt the universe."
--- Albert Einstein