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Author Topic: Voting for Brexit  (Read 8437 times)

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Dave

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2019, 02:14:42 PM »
Yes, the longest period of peace and prosperity that Europe has ever known. What a failure.  ???

This can’t be said too often, especially on this day (Remembrance Sunday) of all days. Those of us who were born in the years following WW2 have lived out our entire lives in the longest continuous period of peace between the countries of Western Europe for 2,000 years. We must never ever take that for granted.

Belly

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2019, 09:20:04 PM »
‘The hated metric system’. Behave yourself.
Words are trains for passing through what really has no name...

marpleexile

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2019, 07:04:47 AM »
The list would take days to type out and most example are in fact well known to all members of the forum.

The ability to favour UK companies and indeed only accept bids from UK companies is very important. Obviously, this would not be required and EU countries could exclude UK companies as well (I could never understand why and French company for example could want to accept bids for a contract from other than French companies). We will no longer have to treat all EU companies etc as equal to our own and vice versa.

And yet no other country in the EU has this "problem". As with most "problems caused by the EU" it's actually the British government's interpretation that is the issue, not the EU.

The ability to decide for ourselves whether to adopt standards from the EU (or elsewhere for that matter), or have our own. Obviously, some standards make sense as the UK's long membership of the Union internationale des chemins de fer and the Union postale universelle show, but neither the EU, nor the UK, should try to impose its standards on each other (and as I've mentioned, the UK has its fair share of blame for imposing its standards on other member states).

Except that at the moment we get to decide the standards, in partnership with the rest of the EU. Should we leave we will be forced to accept the standards imposed on us by our biggest trading partner (whomever that ends up being). We won't get to decide anything.

The ability to allow labelling of products in Imperial units only is very important. For me, getting rid of compulsory use of the hated metric system (born of the French Revolution and the ideas which inspired it), would be reason enough to leave the EU.

 ::)

This is up there with blue passports.......


The impetus Brexit will give to the people of the remaining EU states in their efforts to leave the EU is also important.

The EU is a failed experiment.

Yes, the longest period of peace and prosperity that Europe has ever known. What a failure.  ???

marpleexile

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2019, 06:55:50 AM »
(Actually I am not.  Imperial measurements are a ludicrous system.  No wonder most of the world has shunned them.)

But but but, those industrial power houses of Liberia and Myanmars still use Imperial, and they could be the only places we can get a trade deal with......


Dave

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2019, 07:05:54 PM »
Scaremongering, in my opinion. Use of words like "catastrophic" and maths based on two "ifs" adding up to  "Very real"  ::)

I take jimblob's point about the 'two ifs'.  Actually, if 'if no 1' happens (i.e. there is an overall Tory majority) then 'if no 2' is bound to follow, because the Tories can only win an outright majority if most of their sitting MPs are re-elected, and that includes the ERG crowd..   And with opinion polls at their current levels don't rule it out!

But my use of the word 'catastrophe' is certainly not 'scaremongering', neither is it our old friend 'project fear'.  It is the overwhelming consensus of reputable economic forecasts,  including from the governments's own Office for Budget Responsibility: Brexit will undoubtedly have a damaging impact on the economy, and a no-deal Brexit will have an even more damaging impact.

This is a good and relatively straightforward summary, from the Institute for Fiscal Studies: https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14421

It models four scenarios, in which the best economic outcome is produced by remaining in the EU, followed by leaving with a deal, followed by continued long-term uncertainty, followed, lastly, by leaving without a deal.  The three-year projections shown there suggest a 5% (£100 billion) increase in GDP if we remain, compared, at the other extreme, with a 1% (£20 billion) increase if we leave without a deal.

And yet the leaflet which dropped through our letterbox today claimed that if we 'get Brexit done', that means £33.9 billion more for the NHS, 20,000 more police officers, and 'more money for every school' (I'm amused by the coyness of the last one - just 'more money' ;-)

So if Brexit enables the government to splash that amount of cash around, think how much they could splash if we don't leave!   ::)

andrewbowden

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2019, 06:48:16 PM »
You know we started adopting metric before we joined the EU?  And that many many people have never learned imperial.  I am 42.  I learned Metric at school. People before me learned Metric.  Everyone after has learned Metric.  Our adoption of metric has nothing at all to do with the EU.  Our adoption of metric will not change if we leave .

People who only think in imperial are only ever going to be decreasing in number.

Sorry.

(Actually I am not.  Imperial measurements are a ludicrous system.  No wonder most of the world has shunned them.)


Condate

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2019, 05:06:41 PM »
BTW I note that neither @Condate nor anyone else has actually stepped up to provide examples of the positive differences that Brexit will bring. Any suggestions?

The list would take days to type out and most example are in fact well known to all members of the forum.

The ability to favour UK companies and indeed only accept bids from UK companies is very important. Obviously, this would not be required and EU countries could exclude UK companies as well (I could never understand why and French company for example could want to accept bids for a contract from other than French companies). We will no longer have to treat all EU companies etc as equal to our own and vice versa.

The ability to decide for ourselves whether to adopt standards from the EU (or elsewhere for that matter), or have our own. Obviously, some standards make sense as the UK's long membership of the Union internationale des chemins de fer and the Union postale universelle show, but neither the EU, nor the UK, should try to impose its standards on each other (and as I've mentioned, the UK has its fair share of blame for imposing its standards on other member states).

The ability to allow labelling of products in Imperial units only is very important. For me, getting rid of compulsory use of the hated metric system (born of the French Revolution and the ideas which inspired it), would be reason enough to leave the EU.

The impetus Brexit will give to the people of the remaining EU states in their efforts to leave the EU is also important.

For me, Brexit is not really about the UK; it is about Europe and its future. It is because I am pro-European that I am anti-EU. I think Brexit will have failed if the EU still exists in twenty years time. The EU is a failed experiment. I have no objection to a Europe of closely cooperating nations. There is undoubtedly a unity to Europe, but the EU has missed the point. I think all forum members would be well advised to read the book by Hilaire Belloc (a former Liberal MP by the way) "Europe and the Faith". He points out the true nature of Europe and it what its unity consists.


 

andrewbowden

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2019, 02:02:47 PM »
Don't forget that until Andrew Stunnell stepped down, our constituency was strongly lib-dem.

It's interesting looking at the history of Hazel Grove constituency.

It was created in 1974.

Feb 1974-Oct 1974 it was Liberal.
October 1974 it went to the Conservatives - MP Tom Arnold.
1997 it went Lib Dem to Andrew Stunell.
2015 it went back to the Conservatives.

1997 and 2015 stand out to me every time because they're two points when there was a seismic change in the politics in this country.  In 1997 the Conservatives lost power and lost a lot of seats.  In 2015 the Lib Dems were essentially punished for going into coalition.  (Also of note in both cases, the sitting MP stood down as well.)

Could it be that it will take another seismic shock to change MP?  Or will the next shock not affect us?

Here's another interesting fact by the way.  In 2015 Wragg won with the lowest share of the vote this constituency has ever had, getting only 41.4% of the votes.  Given the Lib Dems and Labour both increased their vote share in 2017, it seems likely the only reason he won was because Ukip didn't stand.  If the Brexit Party do as they say they will, and stand someone here, it seems likely he's got a serious battle on his hands.

What happens this December is an interesting question.

nbt

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2019, 01:16:14 PM »
It's amazing how much of the "Scaremongering" of "project fear" has been dismissed, right up until it's become "exactly what people voted for"

Don't forget that until Andrew Stunnell stepped down, our constituency was strongly lib-dem. There's no saying that this swing from Lib dem to Conservative won't be reversed - but then it isn't guaranteed to happen either

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Stunell#Member_of_Parliament,_1997%E2%80%932015

BTW I note that neither @Condate nor anyone else has actually stepped up to provide examples of the positive differences that Brexit will bring. Any suggestions?
NBT: Notoriously Bad Typist

jimblob

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2019, 11:54:30 AM »
If the Tories get an outright majority in the forthcoming election, and especially if the party still contains extremist ERG members, the prospect of a catastrophic no-deal Brexit at the end of next year is a very real one.  So we know what to do............
Scaremongering, in my opinion. Use of words like "catastrophic" and maths based on two "ifs" adding up to  "Very real"  ::)
It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens
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Dave

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2019, 11:43:58 AM »
An interesting recent development has been the announcement of a tactical voting 'remain alliance' between the Lib Dems, Greens and Plaid Cymru.  The three parties have agreed that in the 60 target seats, two of the parties will give the other party a free run in an attempt to consolidate the 'remain' vote.

One of the target seats is Hazel Grove, where the Greens (and needless to say, Plaid Cymru!) will not run at this election. However, looking at the voting figures from the last general election in 2017, that is not going to make a big difference!

General election 2017: Hazel Grove

Conservative           William Wragg   20,047   45.4%
Liberal Democrat     Lisa Smart         14,533   32.9%
Labour                   Navendu Mishra   9,036   20.5%
Green                    Robbie Lee           516     1.2%
Majority                                           5,514   12.5%

(Source:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazel_Grove_(UK_Parliament_constituency))

So the 1.2% of the vote that the Green candidate got last time will make absolutely no difference.

But the figures are interesting for other reasons. In particular, if you look on that Wikipedia page at the general election results since 2010, you can see how the Labour vote has strengthened considerably over the past nine years, from 12% in 2010 to 20% in 2017. 

As we know, our MP is a member of the European Research Group of extreme Brexiters. See https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/revealed-these-70-tory-mps-support-the-hard-brexit-group.

If the Tories get an outright majority in the forthcoming election, and especially if the party still contains extremist ERG members, the prospect of a catastrophic no-deal Brexit at the end of next year is a very real one.  So we know what to do............

Andy

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2019, 12:26:02 PM »
Austerity; the root cause of the Brexit vote, an opinion presumably?

Has there been anything but in this thread?

jimblob

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2019, 11:45:55 AM »
Yes, it is funny that the Lib Dems always have an issue with the Labour leader when looking at coalitions and yet seem comfortable with the Tory leadership!

The election won't resolve anything, it is just an opportunity to pee more money up the wall which could and should be spent on reversing austerity - the root cause of the brexit vote.
Austerity; the root cause of the Brexit vote, an opinion presumably?
It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens
--- Woody Allen

Andy

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2019, 05:05:31 PM »
Yes, it is funny that the Lib Dems always have an issue with the Labour leader when looking at coalitions and yet seem comfortable with the Tory leadership!

The election won't resolve anything, it is just an opportunity to pee more money up the wall which could and should be spent on reversing austerity - the root cause of the brexit vote.

Looks like we're heading for an election before Christmas.  And yes, with any luck we'll have a Brexit Party candidate in Hazel Grove, and Condate and other like-minded leavers can vote for her/ him, and hopefully split the Leave vote so that Labour or (more likely) the Lib Dems win Hazel Grove.  Bring it on! 

But what is really fascinating and imponderable is this: if the result of the election is that there is no overall majority for any one party (as happened in 2010 and 2017) what happens then?  I can just about imagine the Tories and the Brexit Party joining forces (though God help us if they do).  But can anyone see the Lib Dems and/ or SNP joining a coalition led by Prime Minister Corbyn? Me neither!

Dave

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Re: Voting for Brexit
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2019, 02:24:00 PM »
The Nigel Farage Fanclub have said they will be standing in every seat in the country.  You can vote for them. 

Looks like we're heading for an election before Christmas.  And yes, with any luck we'll have a Brexit Party candidate in Hazel Grove, and Condate and other like-minded leavers can vote for her/ him, and hopefully split the Leave vote so that Labour or (more likely) the Lib Dems win Hazel Grove.  Bring it on! 

But what is really fascinating and imponderable is this: if the result of the election is that there is no overall majority for any one party (as happened in 2010 and 2017) what happens then?  I can just about imagine the Tories and the Brexit Party joining forces (though God help us if they do).  But can anyone see the Lib Dems and/ or SNP joining a coalition led by Prime Minister Corbyn? Me neither!