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Author Topic: Greater Manchester Transport Plan  (Read 2198 times)

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andrewbowden

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Re: Greater Manchester Transport Plan
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2019, 11:02:28 PM »
Another simple truth remains: Manchester needed a train tunnel from Piccadilly to Victoria for a north-south railway system under Manchester centre but a tunnel which was a mile and a bit long was deemed to be too expensive and instead we received a second rate tram link across the city centre. London Crossrail needed 13 miles of tunnels and £16billion was provided to build it. Could there be a more manifest example of the North-South divide when it comes to government expenditure on public transport?

Marplerambler - you raise an interesting point that deserves greater exploration.  Cos it's not as clear cut.

Manchester tried to get the Picc-Vic tunnel built in the 1970s.  The plan was abandoned in 1977.  And Metrolink build started in the 1990s.

The very first proposals for Crossrail are a little older.  In fact the idea of an underground train line between Paddington and Liverpool Street was first mooted in 1941.  Admittedly though, the push really started in 1974.  And then it was abandoned.  Then it was picked up again in 1989.  And got nowhere.  And in 1991.  And 1994.  And 2001.  And 2002.  And 2004. 

Don't forget that the 1980s and early 1990s, the belief was that public transport would basically wither and die as being unnecessary!

Crossrail didn't get approval until 2008.  And it's still not open for business. 

By the way, Crossrail 2 was first mooted in the 1970s too...

Which means London has spent decades battling to get Crossrail built, where as Manchester got its (cheaper) solution through decades earlier.  And is now running so successfully that the goal is to build a tunnel because there's only so many trams you can squeeze on Manchester's streets.

Yes it would have been better (and cheaper no doubt) to have built the Picc-Vic tunnel in the 1970s.  But it was changing plans that meant we got something far earlier.  And I strongly suspect we got a far bigger system out of it too.  How many new railway lines have been opened in the UK in the last few decades?  Not many.  But the Metrolink's built several brand new lines, and building more now. 


marplerambler

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Re: Greater Manchester Transport Plan
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2019, 10:39:32 PM »
For one simple truth remains.  Rome wasn't built in a day.
Another simple truth remains: Manchester needed a train tunnel from Piccadilly to Victoria for a north-south railway system under Manchester centre but a tunnel which was a mile and a bit long was deemed to be too expensive and instead we received a second rate tram link across the city centre. London Crossrail needed 13 miles of tunnels and £16billion was provided to build it. Could there be a more manifest example of the North-South divide when it comes to government expenditure on public transport?

andrewbowden

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Re: Greater Manchester Transport Plan
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2019, 10:50:59 PM »
There is a not small issue of no space at Stockport station for more services with the junction system being near capacity already.   Train-tram normally results in services being diverted from the main stations hence avoiding this problem.

Totally.  It would be very difficult to get a new line coming into Stockport station.  But the new Stockport bus station plans have been designed to fit Metrolink into it, as well as trying to improve connections with the railway station.

ringi

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Re: Greater Manchester Transport Plan
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2019, 10:33:35 PM »
I would like to see a case put forward for a new "express" bus from Marple to the Hazel Grove P&R site, with minimal stops once the bus have left Marple.     Such a bus could greatly reduce the time to get to Stepping Hilll hopital for exmaple, and benfit from the bus lane improvements that are often talked about for the A6.

A expressed bus from the Hazel Grove P&R site to the airport should also be considered.

Clearly it would have to be "on raod" at present, but if such a bus got good use, then a guilded busway could be considerred to get down to the A6.

ringi

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Re: Greater Manchester Transport Plan
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2019, 10:27:28 PM »
One notable thing from the plan, or rather absent from the plan - new heavy rail lines that sit wholly within Greater Manchester.  It's all tram-train. 

There is a not small issue of no space at Stockport station for more services with the junction system being near capacity already.   Train-tram normally results in services being diverted from the main stations hence avoiding this problem.

CTCREP

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Re: Greater Manchester Transport Plan
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2019, 04:05:25 PM »
There is more to Transport than Rail Links. If you look at the GMCA web site you will see a side panel saying “Empower us to do our Jobs say Cycling Commissioners”.  Obviously it is not just Stockport that is failing to cater for cyclists, and although you may think that Chris Boardman and Co. may be able to change the Government’s attitude,  the Government only makes recommendations -  such as the width of cycle lanes - but then leaves it up to the local authorities to do as they please. Which is why Stockport generally ignores cyclists’ requirements and frequently wastes money on useless if not potentially dangerous cycle lanes assuming they are benefiting society but generally don’t.

It has long been known that cycling is, in most instances, the quickest form of transport in an urban environment.  This and its health and environmental benefits are verbally ignored by Stockport Council and who often make things worse for cyclists. 

It is is time Stockport recognised that cycling is of equal importance to other forms of transport.  So while a new rail line would be welcome, it would be expensive, whereas a proper cycle link between Stockport and Marple and then Marple to the new Airport Ring Road would, by comparison, cost virtually nothing and yet benefit just as many people as would a new rail link .

andrewbowden

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Re: Greater Manchester Transport Plan
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2019, 03:57:13 PM »
I take Andrew's point about the common sense of extending new rail links from existing lines. If a Marple - Stockport rail link were to be 'heavy rail' only (as opposed to metrolink tram or tram-train) then it would of course fulfil that criterion, linking up existing rail lines, either by a new curve at Reddish Vale, or by laying new track from Rose Hill along the Middlewood Way to link with the existing rail line at the west end of Disley Tunnel.   

One notable thing from the plan, or rather absent from the plan - new heavy rail lines that sit wholly within Greater Manchester.  It's all tram-train.  It doesn't surprise me.  With no control over Northern Rail's operations in the area, it's almost impossible to bring services up to a good standard.  No way on earth is our government Westminster going to tell Northern Rail to run services down to Rose Hill or Marple every 12 minutes.  It will never happen.  But Metrolink is controlled locally.  The power is unlocked to actually do more stuff.

Dave

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Re: Greater Manchester Transport Plan
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2019, 03:42:06 PM »
I take Andrew's point about the common sense of extending new rail links from existing lines. If a Marple - Stockport rail link were to be 'heavy rail' only (as opposed to metrolink tram or tram-train) then it would of course fulfil that criterion, linking up existing rail lines, either by a new curve at Reddish Vale, or by laying new track from Rose Hill along the Middlewood Way to link with the existing rail line at the west end of Disley Tunnel.   

Otherwise, we need the Piccadilly - Rose Hill tram-train first, and then lobby to link that to the rail line between Denton and Reddish South, making a tram-train branch linking Marple and Stockport.

As Andrew says this will take many years - so we need to start arguing for it now! 

andrewbowden

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Re: Greater Manchester Transport Plan
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2019, 02:34:48 PM »
Somewhere there's someone who has just typed something in a Bolton forum about how they've been overlooked.  And someone very upset about the fact that Port Salford won't have links to Leigh or something.

It is going to be impossible to please everyone with announcements like this.

And equally it will be impossible to do everything that needs to be done in the next ten years.  It takes years to build infrastructure.  Take a look at the Trafford Park extension of Metrolink.  Consultation started on that in 2014.  Two years was the time it took to get permission from Central Government to start building it.  That came in October 2016.  Construction started impressively quickly within months, starting in January 2017.  The line is expected to start running in 2020.  That's six years to do one line from scratch.  With a relatively pliant central government.

The Metrolink plans they announced yesterday were for lines to Port Salford, Middleton and the Airport Loop.  That's three schemes to progress out of lots of known schemes, including Stockport to Marple.  I note as well that the tram-train plans they're progressing also strongly link to the existing Metrolink network.

Why did they pick them?  I don't know.  I am not party to that decision making.  But I presume a lot of analysis was done.  And at a guess, someone created some success criteria and tried to rank each of the schemes against each other to work out what the priorities would be.  There were probably factors like how easy it would be, what benefits would be derived, and so on.  Maybe it's not the easiest of proposals.  Maybe it needs more time to work it all out.  Maybe the ones they picked are more straightforward and offer a similar (or greater) bang for the buck?    Maybe it's important to work it all out properly so it goes smoother.

What I do note is that the Metrolink schemes they're progressing are essentially extensions of existing lines.  They're building out from what they have already.

And I think that's what stops a Marple-Stockport link.  There's nothing at all to build out from.  My suspicion - based on what they have selected already - is that we need that connection in some form.  There's two obvious connectors.  1) Tram-train to Marple/Rose Hill.  or 2) Metrolink route from Stockport to Didsbury.

Build one of them and you suddenly have something you can extend outwards.  A Didsbury/Stockport route could go (somehow) to Marple.  A Rose Hill train-tram could be extended to Stockport.  But you need those foundations first.  And I think we have to be realistic. 

For one simple truth remains.  Rome wasn't built in a day.

Carolyn Leather

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Greater Manchester Transport Plan
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2019, 12:58:58 PM »
I feel we have been overlooked here in Marple again.  There is no direct link proposed from Marple to Stockport via tram or rail over the next decade as far as I can see.  I've written to Andy Burnham just now. Please do the same.

https://www.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/news/future-transport-network/


Carolyn Leather
secretary@stockportgreenparty.co.uk