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Author Topic: SEMMS refresh- petition to remove A6-M60 bypass from plans  (Read 5739 times)

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jimblob

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Re: SEMMS refresh- petition to remove A6-M60 bypass from plans
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2018, 09:19:19 AM »
I totally agree with Andrewbowden. "It's about making public transport work so well that people want to leave their cars at home". I work every week in Aberdeen and don't use or need a car there because the public transport there is so much better than at home. The worst part of my commute is getting to and from Manchester Airport, despite living so close, it's over an hour via public transport! If I'm dropped off by car, getting to the motorway is usually solid traffic and then the airport has the audacity to now charge to get dropped off there! It's ironic that I spend less time in total weekly commuting to Aberdeen on a Monday, back on a Friday and to my office there each day than my wife who works only in Cheadle Hulme!
When I travel to the Netherlands on business, I'm ashamed to be from the UK. Their transport and road systems put us to shame. They build plenty of bypasses, but they include segregated cycle lanes with them (and boy do they get used!) and there isn't a pothole in sight! They have a fantastic city centre tram system and their rail services are second to none. They pay higher taxes but those taxes are spent wisely rather than being frittered away on useless projects or used to wrap the less assertive parts of society in cotton wool. Obesity seems almost non-existent there too. In fact I wonder why I'm sat here writing this; I'd be better planning my move to the Netherlands.
It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens
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Steve Gribbon

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Re: SEMMS refresh- petition to remove A6-M60 bypass from plans
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2018, 09:07:31 AM »

The solutions are simply less use of the car by everybody, combined with more public transport being made available, chiefly rail, as it doesn't clog the roads up. Both are a change of mindset and longer-term planning, so I don't hold out much hope from the public or from politicians. At least Steve Gribbon is trying to drum up support for a railway.


Good morning

Thanks for the reference on this point, I’m off to a TfGM meeting at the moment and will be raising this issue, I’m still pushing for a rail link to be correctly researched and will continue to do so. I like to thought of a spur on the Reddish line to go into Stockport, not just for us but for residents of New Mills and others along our present track.
I accept everyone has a different opinion about what is needed and respect all comments. Personally I feel not having a Stockport rail link is both unfair compared to many other small towns and not having this option has obvious negative effects on traffic volume and the environment.

Kind regards

Steve
Councillor Marple North
Follow me on Twitter @sgribbonlibdems
Email: stevegribbonlibdems@gmail.com

andrewbowden

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Re: SEMMS refresh- petition to remove A6-M60 bypass from plans
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2018, 08:51:53 PM »
Thing with public transport is, make it good and they will come.  Within a few years of opening the first Metrolink service accounted for something like 45% of all rail travel in Manchester.  Why?  Because it's frequent.  The original London Overground network was a collection of railway lines successive people wanted to close down.  Transport for London took it on, increased the frequency of services and bamm!  They are struggling with capacity.  The trains have gone from three carriages to five.  And it's not enough.

It's not about car Vs public transport.  It's about making public transport work so well that people want to leave their cars at home.  Or maybe not even have a car.  I lived for 16 years in London without a car.

There will always be journeys easier done with a car.  But if you make public transport good, you can get people out of their cars.  It's not a pipe dream.  It's not impossible.  Because it is done in the UK everyday.

But until our public transport is better the car will be supreme.  Until our government takes public transport seriously, the car will be supreme.  Especially here.

Written from the top deck of the 383 from Stockport.

jimblob

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Re: SEMMS refresh- petition to remove A6-M60 bypass from plans
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2018, 04:20:04 PM »

Then you realise you forgot the gutter brackets !

 ;D ;D ;D ;D
I needed an extra 92.5 degree elbow so did have to go back!
It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens
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The Canonball Kid

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Re: SEMMS refresh- petition to remove A6-M60 bypass from plans
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2018, 01:31:34 PM »
Melancholyflower...
So I live in Marple near Rose Hill station and I'd like to go to Morrison's in Bredbury for my weekly shop. Whilst I'm over there I'll call at the new Screwfix and pick up some new guttering for my house renovations. In the car it'll take me an hour all in, maybe a little longer because the traffic on Dooley Lane/Otterspool Road will be bad (as it has been for 30+ years, that road would be so much quieter if there was a bypass!). Ahh, but there's a train that can get me over to Romiley now via Tiviot Dale Station from Marple Station that they've just spent £500m reopening, instead of building a bypass. I'll walk up to Marple Station and take the train, walk the 2 miles from the station to Morrisons, then pop into Screwfix and collect the guttering, (carrying my weekly shop) and then drag myself back to the station with shopping and guttering and wait for the train back. Then walk back from Marple Station to my house, again carrying all my shopping.... Oh silly me, there's that new cycle lane, I'll take the bike! .....  by the time I get home the weekend will be over, my frozen food will have thawed and I'll be fit for nothing.
Make cars cleaner, quieter and more economical and build the roads we need (but DO include a proper segregated cycle lane along the road, or maybe even a tramway as well). but please please please, get real!


Then you realise you forgot the gutter brackets !
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubt.

jimblob

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Re: SEMMS refresh- petition to remove A6-M60 bypass from plans
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2018, 10:34:26 AM »
Melancholyflower...
So I live in Marple near Rose Hill station and I'd like to go to Morrison's in Bredbury for my weekly shop. Whilst I'm over there I'll call at the new Screwfix and pick up some new guttering for my house renovations. In the car it'll take me an hour all in, maybe a little longer because the traffic on Dooley Lane/Otterspool Road will be bad (as it has been for 30+ years, that road would be so much quieter if there was a bypass!). Ahh, but there's a train that can get me over to Romiley now via Tiviot Dale Station from Marple Station that they've just spent £500m reopening, instead of building a bypass. I'll walk up to Marple Station and take the train, walk the 2 miles from the station to Morrisons, then pop into Screwfix and collect the guttering, (carrying my weekly shop) and then drag myself back to the station with shopping and guttering and wait for the train back. Then walk back from Marple Station to my house, again carrying all my shopping.... Oh silly me, there's that new cycle lane, I'll take the bike! .....  by the time I get home the weekend will be over, my frozen food will have thawed and I'll be fit for nothing.
Make cars cleaner, quieter and more economical and build the roads we need (but DO include a proper segregated cycle lane along the road, or maybe even a tramway as well). but please please please, get real!
It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens
--- Woody Allen

amazon

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Re: SEMMS refresh- petition to remove A6-M60 bypass from plans
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2018, 10:24:39 AM »
Wow I'd best be quicker, otherwise I'll lose the argument!

The solutions are simply less use of the car by everybody, combined with more public transport being made available, chiefly rail, as it doesn't clog the roads up. Both are a change of mindset and longer-term planning, so I don't hold out much hope from the public or from politicians. At least Steve Gribbon is trying to drum up support for a railway.

You should consider what will be achieved by building a "relief" road costing 500 million (add the usual interest and contractor delays and imagine how much more that might be) and destroying miles of countryside which we won't get back. 

The M60 is a result of a succession of tacked-on "relief" roads designed to take traffic away from local areas around Greater Manchester which were eventually all joined up.   It was full to capacity in some areas as soon as it was opened.  Road begets road.

An earlier contributor talks about decades of bad traffic in Bents Lane and Marple Road. There used to be a perfectly serviceable railway line linking Marple and Romiley with Stockport (Tiviot Dale station) that could have been a much-needed alternative had it existed today. Instead it was built over by, er, the M60.

That shouldn't deter us from looking at other alternatives, such as re-routing one of the existing lines to Stockport via Belle Vue for example, or re-tracking the Middlewood Way up to Middlewood to join up with the Hazel Grove route. 500 million might go along nicely towards either.

Once rail networks expand and improve, it might persuade people to stop using their cars more, which is also vital.
All that would cost more than building the bypass what about all the lories that clog bredbury up in a morning . are they going by train .

Condate

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Re: SEMMS refresh- petition to remove A6-M60 bypass from plans
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2018, 09:23:46 AM »
Like your comments jimblob .notice the two people that objected to the bypass have not come back with alternative proposal .

Any alternatives should make clear that what those who disapprove of new roads actually want is to restrict the freedom to travel in a  convenient way or in some cases to travel at all. There are many journeys which can only be made by public transport with great inconvenience in terms of travel time and duration (and a good many not possible at all) and this will be the case even with the best public transport system imaginable.

With a car, we are used to being able to make journeys whenever we need to with a reasonable time taken, even with traffic jams. On a bus the journey may take twice as long if you are lucky, because you are limited by the timetable and it is not always possible to do that when you are constrained by having to be elsewhere at a specific time.

There are many journeys which will be impractical by public transport because you will need multiple changes or no bus goes within several miles of where you want to go. I did not get a car until I was 36. Until then I only used public transport. Once I got a car I was able to go to many quite near places I had not been to before including some which were in theory accessible by public transport but in practice not so. I did not appreciate the freedom having a car brings until I got one. It is that freedom which is under threat from those who advocate reducing car usage.

Melancholyflower

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Re: SEMMS refresh- petition to remove A6-M60 bypass from plans
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2018, 08:48:48 PM »
Like your comments jimblob .notice the two people that objected to the bypass have not come back with alternative proposal .

Wow I'd best be quicker, otherwise I'll lose the argument!

The solutions are simply less use of the car by everybody, combined with more public transport being made available, chiefly rail, as it doesn't clog the roads up. Both are a change of mindset and longer-term planning, so I don't hold out much hope from the public or from politicians. At least Steve Gribbon is trying to drum up support for a railway.

You should consider what will be achieved by building a "relief" road costing 500 million (add the usual interest and contractor delays and imagine how much more that might be) and destroying miles of countryside which we won't get back. 

The M60 is a result of a succession of tacked-on "relief" roads designed to take traffic away from local areas around Greater Manchester which were eventually all joined up.   It was full to capacity in some areas as soon as it was opened.  Road begets road.

An earlier contributor talks about decades of bad traffic in Bents Lane and Marple Road. There used to be a perfectly serviceable railway line linking Marple and Romiley with Stockport (Tiviot Dale station) that could have been a much-needed alternative had it existed today. Instead it was built over by, er, the M60.

That shouldn't deter us from looking at other alternatives, such as re-routing one of the existing lines to Stockport via Belle Vue for example, or re-tracking the Middlewood Way up to Middlewood to join up with the Hazel Grove route. 500 million might go along nicely towards either.

Once rail networks expand and improve, it might persuade people to stop using their cars more, which is also vital. 

amazon

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Re: SEMMS refresh- petition to remove A6-M60 bypass from plans
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2018, 08:45:11 PM »
Problem is you can't deal with "this problem" in isolation. How much money is being spent on new roads? If you stopped road building and put that money into viable alternatives, then we'd be on the way. however while the uk is still being run by people who believe that the car is king and that free enterprise should come before any "bleeding heart ecological nonsense", you will continue to get new roads

Not spending £480 million on a bypass would go a LONG way towards a better alternative...
Which is

jimblob

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Re: SEMMS refresh- petition to remove A6-M60 bypass from plans
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2018, 07:16:33 PM »
I don't think anyone is saying we need to abandon cars altogether, we just need to make the alternatives much more attractive for people to use.

This article about climate change is worth a read:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/26/were-doomed-mayer-hillman-on-the-climate-reality-no-one-else-will-dare-mention

and therein lies the challenge, "making the alternatives much more attractive for people to use"... the current trend seems only to make cars and roads less attractive and no one seems to be coming up with a way to make your suggestions MORE attractive.
It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens
--- Woody Allen

Carolyn Leather

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Re: SEMMS refresh- petition to remove A6-M60 bypass from plans
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2018, 03:48:38 PM »
I don't think anyone is saying we need to abandon cars altogether, we just need to make the alternatives much more attractive for people to use.

This article about climate change is worth a read:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/26/were-doomed-mayer-hillman-on-the-climate-reality-no-one-else-will-dare-mention
Carolyn Leather

jimblob

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Re: SEMMS refresh- petition to remove A6-M60 bypass from plans
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2018, 03:36:58 PM »
Problem is you can't deal with "this problem" in isolation. How much money is being spent on new roads? If you stopped road building and put that money into viable alternatives, then we'd be on the way. however while the uk is still being run by people who believe that the car is king and that free enterprise should come before any "bleeding heart ecological nonsense", you will continue to get new roads

Not spending £480 million on a bypass would go a LONG way towards a better alternative...
£480M or any amount of money for that matter can't reverse how the nation has evolved since the industrial revolution, how our cities and suburbs are physically placed in relation to each other, how industry has changed, how and where we are employed has changed, how our shopping and leisure activities have changed and how our economy runs. Unless we all adopt the same lifestyle as The Amish and shun the 21st century or have a world war which destroys our living environment to the extent that it has to be rebuilt I really don't see a viable alternative. The concept that roads and therefore cars are bad surely needs to change. Cleaner, quieter, more economical and less polluting vehicles ARE viable and we should certainly embrace that; but getting rid of them or trying to make their use prohibitive without a proven and embedded alternative in place would economical suicide.
It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens
--- Woody Allen

nbt

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Re: SEMMS refresh- petition to remove A6-M60 bypass from plans
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2018, 03:16:10 PM »
Problem is you can't deal with "this problem" in isolation. How much money is being spent on new roads? If you stopped road building and put that money into viable alternatives, then we'd be on the way. however while the uk is still being run by people who believe that the car is king and that free enterprise should come before any "bleeding heart ecological nonsense", you will continue to get new roads

Not spending £480 million on a bypass would go a LONG way towards a better alternative...
NBT: Notoriously Bad Typist

amazon

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Re: SEMMS refresh- petition to remove A6-M60 bypass from plans
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2018, 11:19:06 AM »
Where you WILL se more traffic, noise and pollution is when the Airport/A6 bypass opens and hoards of lorries and delivery vans start to drop off the new bypass in Hazel Grove and use Torkington Lane & Windlehurst to get through to the M60 via Bredbury. Folks will be crying out for a bypass then!
Like your comments jimblob .notice the two people that objected to the bypass have not come back with alternative proposal .