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Author Topic: Greater Manchester Spatial Framework - proposed built development sites  (Read 49001 times)

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simonesaffron

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Re: Greater Manchester Spatial Framework - proposed built development sites
« Reply #71 on: December 19, 2016, 08:54:10 AM »
Belly,

I am not the one who is 'knee-jerking.' You, have totally knee-jerked yourself into total acceptance and you are now trying to solve the problem of where these houses actually go. Leave it to others, don't be so accommodating.

All I am saying is, this is the urbanisation of Marple and as D.H. Lawrence said of urbanisation..." it's ugly, ugly,ugly."

I know there is a housing shortage, it's all over the media so it must be true.

Who says we need 25,000 houses in the borough?  Show us the projections this premise is based on.  Is it the same person making them who decided to close down those three schools in Marple? As I recall, this act was based on "projections."  Where are all these people going to shop? Where are their cars going to go? What schools are their kids going to attend, who will look after their medical needs? Da de Da de Da! Well, we'll just build more schools, roads, hospitals, it' easy, great isn't it? So let's all look forward to this urbanisation, Yippee!

How many empty houses have we got in the borough? Where are the Brownfield sites located? Where is this information?

I'm not trying to fight anything, "successfully" or otherwise. I live as far away from these schemes it as you can get - at the moment that is.

There is no fight to be had, the authorities will do as they wish anyway. They are not going to take any notice of Franz's consultation response, BLESS!

Anyway, I'm off to the Canaries for a few weeks, providing I can find a plane that's running, so argue amongst yourselves, see you all in late February.

MERRY CHRISTMAS       

alstan

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Re: Greater Manchester Spatial Framework - proposed built development sites
« Reply #70 on: December 19, 2016, 08:53:04 AM »
Simone, I have lived in Marple for just short of 40 years and I have been, and I still am, an active member of it clubs, societies, groups, and “Friends of…”. I do admit that I very rarely use its pubs, cafes or shops.

There is no “plan”, just a draft and, yes, many people, myself included were not aware of this draft until Cllrs Blair and Dowse called a public meeting. The draft was published this October, not two years ago.

As far as the effect of public response is concerned, the first step taken by many people was to contact AGMA, SMBC and the other local authorities and complain about the length and timing of the consultation with a successful result. Also the public consultation on A6MARR (SEMMS) resulted in several changes to those plans.

Given your lack of success with assumptions I am not surprised to learn that Belly is not a planning officer and, by the way, it is MARPLE not MAPLE. Don’t worry, you will get used to it.

Are the quotas imposed by the government? Given the quantity of information on GMSF on the internet (somewhere between 1,000 and 2,000 pages I would think) it is difficult to cover every angle but the OAHN was established by AGMA (Strategic Options Background Paper 3). The projections published by the Department for Communities and Local Government are no more than a starting point. Projections from Oxford Economics and the use of Edge Analytics Popgroup software seem to have played a major part in the calculations.

I was very pleased to read that Sue Ingham voted against the LibDem amendment. She obviously meant what she said when she made a public commitment to working with other parties on this issue. I wouldn’t know Lisa Smart from Eve if I met her but I don’t think she was present to make that commitment in which case she is free to turn this into the usual point scoring exercise which we all dislike so much.

Opposing this plan and recognising the need for housing are not mutually exclusive and we do need to look at the bigger picture. I have so far found no reference in the draft plan or supporting documentation relating to UK immigration. Between 2002 and 2015 the UK welcomed 7,323,000 migrants (University of Oxford Population Watch) . Between 2001 and 2015 the population of Stockport increased by 2,275. Why then a projected increase of 27,687 in the period to 2035, particularly taking into account the anticipated drastic reduction in immigration? The current people per household in Stockport is 2.32pph. Why then assume a pph of 1.43 in future planning?

The answer could be the emphasis that is being placed on HS2 and “Northern Powerhouse”. HS2 still plods along but it is remains under attack, recently from those (including an infrastructure financier) promoting the case for diverting the funds to BML2 in the south east. In just the last couple of months Bristol, Bath, Oxford, and Hull have all seen the plans for electrification of their railways scrapped.

“Northern Powerhouse” remains little more than a vision, and a weaker vision since the removal of George Osborne from office and the recent resignation of Lord Neill of Gatley. The people of the Irish Republic had a vision in the middle of the last decade and that ended in hundreds of hectares of half  built houses standing in fields of weeds.

Turning to High Lane and my reference to “a threat to the wellbeing of the people of Marple and High Lane”; the first thing that comes to mind is traffic. The development could put another 6,000 cars onto our local roads, plus the additional commercial traffic to be associated with a development of this size. Planning for a High Lane/Disley bypass started in 1970 and was abandoned in 1996. Since 1970 traffic on the A6 must have increased manyfold and it is soon to take the additional traffic resulting from SEMMS. Estimates of the likely increase range from 13% to 30% and there is to be negligible mitigation. Increases in traffic along Windlehurst Road and Hibbert Lane from both GMSF and SEMMS are likely to exceed the increase that might have resulted from the building of a supermarket  in Hibbert Road.

The new development is likely to block the only route for an A6 bypass and I see no solution for the A6 traffic problems. There are other traffic related issues such as air pollution which is already significant.

Then there is infrastructure. The tram/ train is a “prerequisite” which should mean that it has to be in place before the development. One of the problems is that it would not give the access to Stockport that is needed (assuming it is routed via Rose Hill). In theory it could be routed via Middlewood and Hazel Grove but the operational problems on that route would probably be prohibitive.

What about Stepping Hill? I haven’t been following its fortunes lately but no doubt it is suffering the same problems as the rest of our bloated health service. High Lane is not the only GMSF major development that would increase its workload and then there was the recent scare about Macclesfield running down its services and referring A & E to Stepping Hill.

There are other points in posts on this thread that are well worthy of consideration and debate. I could go on and on, my submission is many times the length of this post, but I wont.




ringi

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Re: Greater Manchester Spatial Framework - proposed built development sites
« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2016, 11:56:42 PM »
What if we did not house people from the rest of the world…..
What if we did not pay more benefits to single mothers when they had a child….
What if we did not pay more benefits to people who choose to have children when they can’t afford them…

"Needing" more homes is a choose that has been made, we could make other chooses so we did not need to build new homes.

However I need these children to become tax payers, as someone has to pay for the NHS in my old age.....

Belly

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Re: Greater Manchester Spatial Framework - proposed built development sites
« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2016, 03:43:53 PM »
All human consequences Simone? That's exactly what I'm talking about. The need for housing has significant human consequences. Why do you think there needs to be a plan to deliver such housing? And if we fail to provide what then?

My point is if not High Lane then where? And if somewhere else, will there not be a load of similar local people in those places screaming blue murder about environmental vandelism, traffic gridlock, etc. This is not just a local issue and to pretend it is totally misses the point.

Btw no I'm not a planning officer, just someone who doesn't take the immediate knee jerk view that all development is bad as a point of principle. Some is, some isn't and quite a lot is simply 'necessary' for us as a nation to move forward. I also understand that the nimby response to such proposals is a flawed approach and to succesfully fight such schemes you need to make sense and prepare a rounded case that addresses the big issues. Just saying 'no' lacks credibility.

amazon

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Re: Greater Manchester Spatial Framework - proposed built development sites
« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2016, 02:49:23 PM »
Why is there no map of brownfield sites across the region showing how much space there is, listing any issues that need to be addressed, such as contamination etc, and how many houses could be built on them? Or is there such a thing somewhere?
Good question Admin .come on someone produce a map there must be some info somewere .

admin

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Re: Greater Manchester Spatial Framework - proposed built development sites
« Reply #66 on: December 18, 2016, 11:34:28 AM »
Why is there no map of brownfield sites across the region showing how much space there is, listing any issues that need to be addressed, such as contamination etc, and how many houses could be built on them? Or is there such a thing somewhere?
Mark Whittaker
The Marple Website

Dave

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Re: Greater Manchester Spatial Framework - proposed built development sites
« Reply #65 on: December 18, 2016, 10:51:30 AM »
Many thanks to Belly for his thoughtful and rational contribution - a welcome antidote to the hysterical 'horror movie'!

There is a national and regional shortage of housing - everyone knows that. And there is not enough brownfield land to meet the demand for new homes. And there are a number of other factors at work - for example the 'hoarding' of building land by some of the biggest building companies, such as Barratt and Taylor Wimpey. See  http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21710853-companies-are-accused-driving-up-house-prices-land-banking-are-british-housebuilders.

I have great sympathy for High Lane folk, who understandably don't want a massive new housing estate on their doorsteps. But we need to find another solution, and putting our heads in the sand and pretending there isn't a housing shortage, or imagining that we can meet our housing needs entirely from brownfield sites, simply doesn't address the problem.

simonesaffron

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Re: Greater Manchester Spatial Framework - proposed built development sites
« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2016, 08:29:52 AM »
JohnBates,
When it comes to party politics, I wouldn't expect you to do anything else but 'do not agree.' Your own slavish devotion to the Conservative party is well known on this forum and I have to say that you are entitled to it. Thank you for your response but it does sound very much like the latest Tory Party election leaflet.

Franz,
Are you actually from Maple? Have you just moved into the area? Did you and your fellow meeting attendees genuinely not know about this plan until it was unveiled to you a few weeks ago by two Tory sprog councillors? Do you never go into the pubs cafés and shops in Maple? This plan has been around for at least two years that I know of and I do not claim to be in the know. Furthermore, do you ACTUALLY BELIEVE that this so called 'public consultation' will make any difference to what is going to happen?  Do you not realise that the plan is already in place and that public consultations are just a motion to go through on the way? As you seem to like spelling pedantry, its FINNIE not FINNEY.

Belly
Your post sounds exactly like that of a Planning Officer who has completely lost touch with all human consequences. I suspect that you are actually a Planning Officer - ARE YOU? 

Condate,
You are obviously a newcomer to Maple with little understanding of its local political history. Though you make two good points about these quotas being government imposed and also about independent councillors.     

Condate

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Re: Greater Manchester Spatial Framework - proposed built development sites
« Reply #63 on: December 17, 2016, 09:53:55 PM »
I am afraid I do not agree. What you both fail to mention is that:

1)  The Lib Dems and ex Leader Sue Derbyshire were the main instigators of the GMSF in the first place.

I can't argue with that and have no wish to. I do wish we could keep party politics out of this though.

2) Local authorities working together on planning IS a good idea

In principle, yes. It does depend on which local authorities though. Stockport in general and Marple in particular have very little connection with the so called Greater Manchester. While working with one or two of the neighbouring authorities in 'Greater Manchester' makes sense, so does working with Cheshire East and Derbyshire. A plan for 'Greater Manchester' as a whole is a mistake, as 'Greater Manchester' is a figment of central and some local goverment's imagination. Unfortunately, this fictional place has become fixed to a large degree by bizarrre things like the Greater Manchester Combined Authority and the even bigger nonsense of the Mayoral election next year.

3) Stockport's housing requirement is for 22,000 homes, but by being in GMSF others are providing some of this, so only 19,000 in Stockport. If not in GMSF we would need to provide 3,000 MORE homes. Nearly another High Lane development. Where do Councillors Hunter and Smart suggest these are built?

As you must have gathered from the area committe meeting, a lot of people regard this figure as total fantasy. Unfortunately, as I pointed out at the meeting, even if 100% of the population of the borough rejected this figure, it wouldn't make a scrap of differerence, as it is imposed by government, who it appears couldn't care less about what people here think. This does make much of the consultation a complete waste of time, as it will be ignored.

4) The night before the full council meeting all 6 Marple councillors had agreed to work together on the proposals, then the LibDems pulled the above political stunt. This explains why only 2 of the three LibDems voted in favour. Sue Ingham voted against the LibDem amendment as it was so poorly thought out. Just a political stunt.

It does sound like a party political stunt, and indeed there seems to be too much party political goings on in this area. If we had all independent councillors, we would be much better off.

5) Work is being done to try and find brownfield sites to reduce/remove need to use greenbelt. The Stockport planing officers would love to know of any they are not aware of.

Good. I wonder if they take into account the large number of empty houses and houses which have been for sale for several years into account when working out how many houses to build.


Belly

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Re: Greater Manchester Spatial Framework - proposed built development sites
« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2016, 05:41:45 PM »
Whilst I understand the concern regarding 4000 additional houses on the edge of High Lane / Marple, we really do need to consider why they are being proposed and not just knee jerk, object to them on principle. John Bates' post is extremely pertinent in terms of setting out the level of additional houses that Stockport Borough is required to accommodate over the GMSF period. Finding space for 19,000 homes is not easy and realistically brownfield land is not going to be enough. So being pragmatic, where are these houses going to go? That's a significant part of the debate that we should be having and not just look at High Lane in isolation.

Statements like '4,000 houses at High Lane represents a threat to the well being of the people of Marple' also don't help in my view. Exactly how is my well being as a Marple resident going to be affected? I just cant see how. Life moves on, new houses get built. Take a good look at High Lane, a huge proportion of that village is made up of 1960 & 1970's housing. What was that built on? Did the people of Marple suffer a huge loss of well being at that time?

Remember Green Belt is a 1960's planning invention - whereby planners at that time, rather like now with GMSF, were tasked with trying to predict and plan for town and city growth. Arguably in many cases the green belt represented a politically motivated green collar round towns - representing feel good planning wins, but really representing places where planners didn't feel that development was likely to be needed anytime soon. 50 years later, the need for further future long term planning is here and the Green Belt of all that time ago, is under pressure. Hardly surprising. Green Belt isn't sacrosant and nor is it immovable, it has to reflect the times and we do need to plan properly for our future.

By the way, this isn't a pitch for development at High Lane, but more of a plea for the community to take a look at the bigger picture and think about how the Borough as a whole moves forward. Just simply saying 'no' and refusing to accept reality will backfire in the long run. Its fine that the local councillors are all objecting at this stage, but can they tell us what is their alternative? Where do they think all this housing which is needed should go? Or is it just not in our back yard? I really hope they are not going to peddle  the politically safe answer of 'brownfield sites'. If so, which brownfield sites please and whiles you are at it demonstrate how they will provide 19,000 homes of the required mix. Also can they also set out who is going to pay the remediation costs to make some of these sites usable? Are we as tax payers prepared to assist in funding such locations to make them commercially viable? That's a big call and potentially just as unpalatable as green belt development.

Planning is an extremely difficult and complex equation and one that has to take account of a multitude of viewpoints and perspectives. Seeking to protect the green fields of High Lane is just one part of that equation and if successful there will be repercussions elsewhere and similar concerned locals. The need for new housing is not going to go away, we do need to respond to it properly.   

alstan

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Re: Greater Manchester Spatial Framework - proposed built development sites
« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2016, 07:00:56 PM »
The time limit for the consultation has just been extended? I paid £6.45 today for a next day delivery to make sure my response was in on time!!

alstan

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Re: Greater Manchester Spatial Framework - proposed built development sites
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2016, 06:56:06 PM »
I am afraid some of the laughter might be directed at you, Dave.

The video is excellent and many thanks to those who took the time and trouble to produce it. There is nothing, no amount of studying maps, reading the draft plan, reports, appendices, experts opinions etc , that is so effective in demonstrating the sheer size of this proposed Green Belt development and its threat to the wellbeing of the people of Marple and High Lane.

I get the impression, Simone, that you have not been following this very closely. I am politically independent but I think we owe a great deal to our Conservative councillors. I, and many others, had never heard of GMSF until Kenny Blair and Tom Dowse called a public meeting on 12th November. They led the meeting very effectively and had obviously done their homework. Annette Finney, Geoff Abell, Sue Ingham, and one or two others who I did not recognise were on the platform but were effectively bystanders. Councillors from both parties stated that their differences were to be set aside and they would work together to oppose the development. As far as I am aware all Marple South councillors have attended subsequent meetings but I believe that Kenny Blair was the only local councillor to attend the meeting in Manchester organised by the Campaign to Protect Rural England. Certainly he was the only one to make his presence known.

Unfortunately the minutes of the SMBC meeting on 1st December have not yet been published so I don’t know the wording of the motion or the amendment. However the following day Lisa Smart circulated an email in which she said  “The chance to keep our Greenbelt safe was scuppered last night”…,”Plans which jam thousands of new houses onto local greenbelt….are still going ahead…..local Conservatives and Labour joined forces… to push them through…”

I find this rather confusing. There was no plan. There was, and still is,only a draft which, at the time of that meeting was halfway through a period of public consultation. It seems totally premature to bring this amendment at that stage. Are not the public to be allowed to complete their response to the consultation?

Given the speed with which the condemnation of the Conservatives and Labour was published I suspect that the amendment was put forward in the knowledge that anyone with any sense would oppose it, thus giving the LibDems the opportunity to run for the high ground. So much for their public promise.

Incidentally, do you have any suggestions as to where the party line might be towed to ?


JohnBates

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Re: Greater Manchester Spatial Framework - proposed built development sites
« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2016, 05:47:10 PM »
The GMSF is a proposition of mass environmental vandalism, the like of which has never been seen before. It is a 'plan,' (and I use the term loosely)  that although taking years to formulate has just not been thought through properly. It will destroy large areas of greenbelt in Stockport in general and in Maple in particular. Marple will  be changed for the worse forever and we will never recover from this criminal urbanisation.

The sad irony of this in Stockport is that there are many Brownfield sites that could be used for housing some of these sites have had planning permission granted for years yet no attempt to build upon them has ever been started. Our local councillors could start their resistance by bringing a list of these sites to the Area Committee.

Speaking of local councillors, I have thought now for a long time that the only way to resist this urbanisation in Stockport is for the borough to opt out of the GMSF, nothing has yet been finally agreed so this is a real possibility. I was therefore pleasantly surprised to hear that at the last Full Council Meeting, such an action was proposed as a motion amendment by the Lib Dems, proposed by Cllr Mark Hunter and seconded by Councillor Lisa Smart. The amendment was lost and was voted against by Labour and the Tories combined.

The question is begging, where were Marple's Conservative councillors on this, why didn't you support the motion. Towing the party line again? Putting party before constituents whilst lipserving...."save the greenbelt?         

Simone as usual has hit the nail on the head.   

I am afraid I do not agree. What you both fail to mention is that:

1)  The Lib Dems and ex Leader Sue Derbyshire were the main instigators of the GMSF in the first place.
2) Local authorities working together on planning IS a good idea
3) Stockports housing requirement is for 22,000 homes, but by being in GMSF others are providing some of this, so only 19,000 in Stockport. If not in GMSF we would need to provide 3,000 MORE homes. Nearly another High Lane development. Where do Councillors Hunter and Smart suggest these are built?
4) The night before the full council meeting all 6 Marple councillors had agreed to work together on the proposals, then the LibDems pulled the above political stunt. This explains why only 2 of the three LibDems voted in favour. Sue Ingham voted against the LibDem amendment as it was so poorly thought out. Just a political stunt.
5) Work is being done to try and find brownfield sites to reduce/remove need to use greenbelt. The Stockport planing officers would love to know of any they are not aware of.

I suggest you look at the more nuanced and thoughtful comments made in Westminster by William Wragg and others here http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/15dca4d1-5d28-491a-889d-b559fc1f0a01


The consultation period on the GMSF has been extended to 16th January. Please make your views heard.

Hoffnung

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Re: Greater Manchester Spatial Framework - proposed built development sites
« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2016, 11:16:28 AM »
Simone as usual has hit the nail on the head.

What we are going to witness over the next twenty years is the urbanisation of Manchester's city region or the 'Londonisation' of Manchester as I heard it called the other day.

If we want DevoManc and the Northern Powerhouse (and I personally don't) then we have to provide the infrastructure that supports it. That means people and everything that supports them. There is no way out of it. It is really all for future generations and what have future generations ever done for me?

There is also a secondary party political spin off to this plan, especially in Stockport, but whilst people continue to vote for political parties and we have no independent politicians then that will always be there. I'm just thankful for the small mercy that I don't live in High Lane,which is quite simply going to be transformed int Croydon if they are lucky, Slough if they are not. I'll bet that High Lane Residents are not concerned with the speed of the cars on Windlehurst Road now.

As for neighbourhood plans and civic societies etall - Bless Em!     

     

Dave

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Re: Greater Manchester Spatial Framework - proposed built development sites
« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2016, 10:53:19 AM »
I have thought now for a long time that the only way to resist this urbanisation in Stockport is for the borough to opt out of the GMSF,

Would that be 'Stexit'?  ;)

I don't disagree with jimblob - it is a seriously unwelcome proposal.  However, the video is so ridiculous that it risks undermining the very case which it is trying to make. So instead of taking the intended message seriously, there is a danger that some people will just laugh at it.