Saving Cyclists Lives

[CTCREP]

Petition

Can I bring the subject back to its original purpose. I have created a Government Petition  that I believe could save cyclists lives.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/123652

The discussion on the behaviour of all road users is not the issue and would be better as another post.

At the moment we have had 593 readers, I don't have that many signatures.

Unless you have an objection to trying to save another human beings life, please sign the petition.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/123652

[Dave]

I can see I need to spell this out in words of one syll-a-ble!

Each type of road user has its own normal speed, and they are different.  There is a normal speed for cars.  There is a normal speed for buses. There is a normal speed for bicycles.  There is a normal speed for lorries. There is a normal speed for horses.

As the Highway Code says, 'It is important that all road users are considerate towards each other.'  So as far as possible, each road user should allow others to proceed safely at their own normal speed.

I can't say it much clearer than that! 

[wheels]

Where did I say that, or even imply it?

..........allowing motorists to proceed at a normal speed.

Ah but Dave by using the term "normal speed" your showing a mindset that says anything other than the speed of the car is abnormal.  That the car and the speed it goes is normal and that the rest of us will just have to fit in with it.

[marpleexile]

and cyclists and horse riders should reciprocate by allowing motorists to proceed at a normal speed.

In other words, they should get out of their way!

[Dave]

But you do appear to be saying that motorists have more right to use the roads than cyclists, and that other road users should get out of the way of motorists if there's a chance a motorist's journey might be slowed by their presence.

Where did I say that, or even imply it?

It seems self-evident to me that all road users have an equal right to use the roads, as long as they do so considerately, recognising that other types of road-user will have different needs and will go at different speeds.  Motorists should give cyclists and horse-riders a wide berth, and cyclists and horse riders should reciprocate by allowing motorists to proceed at a normal speed.

Horse riders are generally very courteous to motorists - an example that some cyclists would do well to emulate. 

[marpleexile]

The best thing for road safety in the UK would be to introduce the presumed liability laws that many countries in Europe have. In essence they state that unless there is evidence to the contrary, the liability in an accident is assumed to lay with the driver of the larger vehicle.

[wheels]

I agree exile. Indeed why is the British attitude so out of step with the rest of the world where we see a road using hierarchy of pedestrian, cyclists,  motorcycles and car. Why do the British seem to think the car is the most important road user.  If a car has to be delayed by 30 seconds why I cycle assertively  (safely ) why do drivers have to act if if in some way this is a massive infringement on their human rights and they are at liberty to use their weapon (car) to do whatever they like.

[marpleexile]

No-one has suggested that cyclists are not entitled to use the road.  But what they are not entitled to do is prevent other road users from using it in a normal way.  If a long line of vehicles is forced to drive at 15 - 20 mph behind a selfish (aka defensive or assertive) cyclist - and I have seen it happen, on a busy urban road where overtaking was impossible - then those vehicles are not making 'reasonable progress' (to quote from the driving test list of possible faults).

But you do appear to be saying that motorists have more right to use the roads than cyclists, and that other road users should get out of the way of motorists if there's a chance a motorist's journey might be slowed by their presence.

[marpleexile]

I agree there are worse things that could happen, but it does demonstrate the (in my opinion) selfish attitude of many cyclists who seem determined to treat their journey as a time trial with little thought to other drivers and pedestrians. If it's a HGV or bus that's held up, it could be very difficult for that vehicle to safely pass the cyclist, so the delay affects many.

I have some friends and colleagues who hate cyclists with a vengeance because of this attitude (they are otherwise intelligent and sane individuals). There is a lot of give and take needed when driving on the congested roads round here and I think cyclists need to do a bit more giving.

I agree there are worse things that could happen, but it does demonstrate the (in my opinion) selfish attitude of many Motorists who seem determined to treat their journey as a time trial with little thought to other road users and pedestrians. If it's a HGV or bus that's held up, it could be very difficult for that vehicle to safely pass the cyclist, so the delay affects many.

I have some friends and colleagues who hate motorists with a vengeance because of this attitude (they are otherwise intelligent and sane individuals). There is a lot of give and take needed when driving on the congested roads round here and motorists need to do a bit more giving.

[Dave]

Motorists have no more or less right to use the roads (motorways and certain A(M) roads excepted) than any other user, including (shock horror) cyclists.

No-one has suggested that cyclists are not entitled to use the road.  But what they are not entitled to do is prevent other road users from using it in a normal way.  If a long line of vehicles is forced to drive at 15 - 20 mph behind a selfish (aka defensive or assertive) cyclist - and I have seen it happen, on a busy urban road where overtaking was impossible - then those vehicles are not making 'reasonable progress' (to quote from the driving test list of possible faults).   

[simonesaffron]

If you consider it not worth your while to try to help save cyclists lives, then don't sign, but just remember you didn't next time you hear of a cyclist fatality involving a long vehicle. I hope others will spend the 10 seconds or so it takes to sign and leave it to the Politicians to investigate fully,  rather than spend 5 minutes trying to find reasons not to.

I think that your point is well made CT.

[Cyberman]

But does it really matter than 15 cars are held up for 2 minutes yes 2 whole minutes,  while the lights go through the sequence again.  Are these about so crucial to any of us.

I agree there are worse things that could happen, but it does demonstrate the (in my opinion) selfish attitude of many cyclists who seem determined to treat their journey as a time trial with little thought to other drivers and pedestrians. If it's a HGV or bus that's held up, it could be very difficult for that vehicle to safely pass the cyclist, so the delay affects many.

I have some friends and colleagues who hate cyclists with a vengeance because of this attitude (they are otherwise intelligent and sane individuals). There is a lot of give and take needed when driving on the congested roads round here and I think cyclists need to do a bit more giving.

[ringi]

I learned how to cycle in a safe way from cyclecraft when I first lived in Cambridge.    Being "nice" and keeping out of the way is not a option if you wish to remain alive on a bike.

[marpleexile]

The interesting thing is that this sort of cycling - in the middle of the carriageway instead of the left hand side - is actively and possibly even 'officially' promoted as being 'correct', even though it can cause major hold ups to other road users.  I believe it's sometimes called 'assertive cycling', and it's promoted in books like this one:   http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/

'Assertive' is one word for it.  Another, is 'selfish'.

Self-preservation also springs to mind.

It's actually referred to as "defensive" cycling, or defensive road positioning. The idea is to take up a position in the lane that keeps you, the cyclist, safe by making it very difficult or impossible for a motorist behind you to do something illegal (dangerous driving is illegal), such as passing too close when there is road furniture (or oncoming traffic) which makes making an appropriately wide pass impossible.

Motorists have no more or less right to use the roads (motorways and certain A(M) roads excepted) than any other user, including (shock horror) cyclists.

Of course some people are just complete and utter ******'s and shouldn't be allowed on the roads, but that applies equally to cyclists and motorists (and all other types of road users).

[wheels]

But does it really matter than 15 cars are held up for 2 minutes yes 2 whole minutes,  while the lights go through the sequence again.  Are these about so crucial to any of us.