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Author Topic: Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport  (Read 44251 times)

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Duke Fame

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Re: Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport
« Reply #133 on: January 28, 2016, 12:09:03 PM »
It's fair to point out that the Buxton line is used much more than once an hour at peak times, and it's a very popular commuter route in itself - except for Middlewood station which has no car park, a really poor access road / path for walkers, and is a fair distance from the A6 and major housing in High Lane.

I suppose the idea of an interchange with the old Rose Hill line being extended to Upper Middlewood and transferring to the Buxton Line isn't the worst for linking to Stockport, especially if you introduced a terminus service from Middlewood which stopped at Hazel Grove only and left Davenport and Woodsmoor for the Buxton services.

Shame the SEMMS road thing didn't cater for trams side by side to the airport. My feeling is that the new road won't relieve that much congestion.

I think the link road will be useful but wherever practical, I'd have thought a rail provision would be sensible to any new road proposal.

The Buxton line is used at peak hours, 2x an hour. I'm sure a tram could work around this.

Certainly, there is no point putting trams on the A6, Trams are not an efficient use of tarmac space (neither are bus lanes)

ringi

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Re: Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport
« Reply #132 on: January 28, 2016, 11:27:46 AM »
I am starting to think we need a quality cycle track, (with a good surface and lights, so someone could use on a commuting bike while wearing work cloths) from Marple to the park and ride in Hazel Grove along with lots of bike lockers at the park and ride.

Also what about a single track guided bus way or bus only road with passing places?  There would be no need for tropic lights (signals) if the line of sight was good between the passing places.   Then a bus running every 15 minutes, so we had a good link into the 192 and a bus to the airport.   (Buses are a LOT cheaper then trains or trams to run!)

Dave

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Re: Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport
« Reply #131 on: January 28, 2016, 10:54:30 AM »
Here's the planning application showing space to be reserved at Bredbury for a "potential future tram link", posted as a link because it's rather big:

http://stevenicklin.com/images/metrolink/DC060009-bredburycurve.jpg

Thanks to the excellent SkyscraperCity forums, the Manchester transport section of which I highly recommended for staying abreast of current and future developments.

As said above, having tram-trains already using the Marple-Manchester line would suddenly make this link to Stockport a lot more feasible, and in my opinion would be justification alone for not simply electrifying the line for heavy rail trains. Of course a chord further up onto the existing line through Reddish South would be possible, but would there be capacity for those trains to then cross the viaduct and use Stockport station? And wouldn't it be better to run at "ground level", into the actual town, serving areas like Portwood directly too?

In all the cries for the A6-Bredbury relief road it's disappointing no one is championing this way of genuinely removing congestion, not just moving it to a new road (and creating more...)

Thanks for that, rsh - really interesting. And as hatter points out, converting the Rose Hill line to tram-trains reopens the whole issue of a link off the line to Stockport, whether it is at Bredbury or via the Reddish Vale curve and the Guide Bridge to Stockport line.  Bring it on!

Melancholyflower

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Re: Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport
« Reply #130 on: January 28, 2016, 12:44:17 AM »
It's fair to point out that the Buxton line is used much more than once an hour at peak times, and it's a very popular commuter route in itself - except for Middlewood station which has no car park, a really poor access road / path for walkers, and is a fair distance from the A6 and major housing in High Lane.

I suppose the idea of an interchange with the old Rose Hill line being extended to Upper Middlewood and transferring to the Buxton Line isn't the worst for linking to Stockport, especially if you introduced a terminus service from Middlewood which stopped at Hazel Grove only and left Davenport and Woodsmoor for the Buxton services.

Shame the SEMMS road thing didn't cater for trams side by side to the airport. My feeling is that the new road won't relieve that much congestion. 

Duke Fame

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Re: Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport
« Reply #129 on: January 27, 2016, 10:45:41 PM »
Yesterday the A6 was not moving at all!   Therefore a tram would need its own lane.   But if we had bus lines “end to end” on the A6, then buses would be fast enough.   

For a lot less than the cost of a railway, the Middlewood way can be made into a bus way allowing the flexibility for buses to run though Marple on normal roads, then onto it. 

Public transport is a BIG issue, as so many new jobs are being created “out of town” for example near the airport, yet the only way for most people to get to them is by car.  Buses don’t work if they go double the distance then the direct route by car.

can the line not drop down middlewood way and link to the existing  Buxton line that is already there but only used once an hour. surely it can just share the line until stockport

marplerambler

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Re: Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport
« Reply #128 on: January 27, 2016, 10:33:28 PM »

This poses 2 questions. 1 Why have Stockport Council in their tram train strategy favoured the longer Reddish Vale curve route? If the Reddish Vale curve was the favoured route how has this land on a different route managed to be ring fenced from development? It doesn't make sense? Do any councillors know?

How about the following hypothesis -

There is one road in and out of a Brinnington estate which jams up every morning but the go ahead has been given for the construction of 200 new houses in an area above Reddish Vale with a 1950s/1960s road infrastructure which cannot cope with existing levels of traffic. The addition of 200 homes will cause total gridlock.The road to the M60 and the road from Brinnington to Stockport via Portwood roundabout will seize up completely with the extra traffic and the only solution will eventually have to be a tram link to Stockport.
 
A tram link to Stockport via Brinnington is the only way that councillors can prevent a three mile plus solid wall of traffic all the way from the  streets adjacent to Reddish Vale to Portwood roundabout.

hatter76

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Re: Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport
« Reply #127 on: January 27, 2016, 09:46:23 PM »
Here's the planning application showing space to be reserved at Bredbury for a "potential future tram link", posted as a link because it's rather big:

http://stevenicklin.com/images/metrolink/DC060009-bredburycurve.jpg
Thanks for posting this link rsh, I didn't know this was still possible. It would definitely add value and be a much shorter route than the Reddish Vale curve then down the A6 option. If it goes through the centre of Stockport and joined up with the East Didsbury tram line it would connect a large number of people.

This poses 2 questions. 1 Why have Stockport Council in their tram train strategy favoured the longer Reddish Vale curve route? If the Reddish Vale curve was the favoured route how has this land on a different route managed to be ring fenced from development? It doesn't make sense? Do any councillors know?

ringi

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Re: Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport
« Reply #126 on: January 27, 2016, 05:55:16 PM »
I think a tram link from Stockport into Dibsbury may be needed first, then a Marple link to Stockport as an extension of the train/tram.

Even then it will not be quick to get to the airport, or MediaCity.   Not many people work near Stockport station, so a link that just goes to Stockport does not help much with commuting.

We are hitting the old issue that where employment and housing is on the edges of a city and public transport links into the city, the car is very hard to beat!   (I keep coming back to failing to understand why people in Marple wish to travel to Stockport….)

The A6-Bredbury relief road is a separate issue and may allow bus lanes to be installed on more of the A6, if so, we just need a way for a bus to get from Marple to the A6 in a reasonable and predictable time.

The only way to remove congestion is to have road charging, as whenever a car is removed from a road, travel times speed up, so people start working further from where they live.

rsh

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Re: Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport
« Reply #125 on: January 27, 2016, 05:42:28 PM »
Here's the planning application showing space to be reserved at Bredbury for a "potential future tram link", posted as a link because it's rather big:

http://stevenicklin.com/images/metrolink/DC060009-bredburycurve.jpg

Thanks to the excellent SkyscraperCity forums, the Manchester transport section of which I highly recommended for staying abreast of current and future developments.

As said above, having tram-trains already using the Marple-Manchester line would suddenly make this link to Stockport a lot more feasible, and in my opinion would be justification alone for not simply electrifying the line for heavy rail trains. Of course a chord further up onto the existing line through Reddish South would be possible, but would there be capacity for those trains to then cross the viaduct and use Stockport station? And wouldn't it be better to run at "ground level", into the actual town, serving areas like Portwood directly too?

In all the cries for the A6-Bredbury relief road it's disappointing no one is championing this way of genuinely removing congestion, not just moving it to a new road (and creating more...)

rsh

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Re: Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport
« Reply #124 on: January 27, 2016, 05:30:03 PM »
Unfortunately the people in power in the early 1980s decided to close the old Cheshire Lines freight line that connected Romiley/Woodley with Stockport and Warrington. It should have been retained, but its been built on by Morrison's at Bredbury, M60, Tescos etc.
It would still be possible to route a tram roughly along this alignment without too much trouble (and I personally think, too much cost compared to other Metrolink projects).

In fact parts of the possible alignment have been protected and marked out in several neighbouring planning applications, such as the now-cancelled bigger Sainsburys across the river and very recently in plans for houses at Bredbury, which show the possible line curving off after Bredbury station and running towards the junction for McDonald's (where it would presumably cross and then run through the land opposite roughly following the M60). I'll try to find an image of the plans...

It's a shame none of our councillors are really calling out for this to go ahead, it would have a massive positive impact on local traffic levels and would get people out of cars who'd never be convinced by a bus. I imagine having tram-trains already running out to us from Manchester would be a prerequisite however, otherwise it would be an oddly isolated line, so perhaps that's where we should really be putting the demand for investment first.

ringi

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Re: Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport
« Reply #123 on: January 27, 2016, 11:48:23 AM »
Yesterday the A6 was not moving at all!   Therefore a tram would need its own lane.   But if we had bus lines “end to end” on the A6, then buses would be fast enough.   

For a lot less than the cost of a railway, the Middlewood way can be made into a bus way allowing the flexibility for buses to run though Marple on normal roads, then onto it. 

Public transport is a BIG issue, as so many new jobs are being created “out of town” for example near the airport, yet the only way for most people to get to them is by car.  Buses don’t work if they go double the distance then the direct route by car.

Duke Fame

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Re: Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport
« Reply #122 on: January 27, 2016, 10:38:47 AM »
The problem with a Stockport link is short distance, slow and long rail route (either Reddish Vale or the A6) and low levels of town centre demand. You would need around 2 million passengers a year to make it viable and  rail doesn't have the same advantages over the car going to Stockport as it does Manchester. Unfortunately it will never pass a value for money check or a serious business case assessment. For example, what comparative advantages would a tram have over buses going down the A6, very few but it would cost millions to build.

Unfortunately the people in power in the early 1980s decided to close the old Cheshire Lines freight line that connected Romiley/Woodley with Stockport and Warrington. It should have been retained, but its been built on by Morrison's at Bredbury, M60, Tescos etc. The other facing North link link that comes out at Reddish viaduct is still there until Tescos at Portwood, but you would have to stop on the viaduct and reverse to access the old alignment, so its not really practical.

About 80 posts ago Marple Rambler suggested a route via Brinnington but again what advantages would a tram have against the much cheaper buses when its sat in traffic jams. To me trams only work when they are in traffic free environments, this is why they were scrapped 60 years ago.


The A6 route would not be so slow. I agree that the most expensive part would be re-laying the track on Middlewood way and that particular area serves the fewest passengers but the real advantage is lifting traffic from the A6 and it would give Marple commuters access to mainline routes within 15 mins

corium

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Re: Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport
« Reply #121 on: January 27, 2016, 09:46:56 AM »
Hatter, thanks. Just to take up Ringi's point, I know Piccadilly is useful for those who work at the University but Victoria being no use to those who work in Spinningfields, the main shopping area?  I just pose the question based on those on the Marple train that head straight for the shuttle buses to go to the other side of town.

hatter76

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Re: Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport
« Reply #120 on: January 26, 2016, 09:31:26 PM »
Dabbling my toes here as I haven't the detailed knowledge many have but one or two things strike me:

1 - Are we making the best use of what it already there/ being constructed? We assume Piccadilly is the end of the Marple line but once the Ordsall loop is completed are through trains being considered? To give a hypothetical example run trains to Leeds via Manchester & the stopping Hebden Bridge line then you can have many more trains "stored" in transit rather than stopped somewhere at a platform. This is essentially how the London cross rail project works.

2 - Some years ago I seem to recall an idea to run trains from Rosehill into Victoria which suggests there is still some infrastrucuture that could be brought back into play, which is what the current OS map suggests. I recall howls of protest but are we all so fixated on Piccadilly as the destination? Could this - lets call it the Ashbury chord - be constructed far more easily than any tram system?

Yes Corium, the line that bends off to the right as you leave Ashburys going towards Manchester goes to Victoria, it is being electrified gas part of the Northern Hub scheme in the coming few years. You could run trains from Marple there if you wanted and it would be far cheaper than the tram project. However, I believe as outlined in previous posts that there will be sufficient capacity at Piccadilly.

hatter76

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Re: Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport
« Reply #119 on: January 26, 2016, 08:49:41 PM »
The problem with a Stockport link is short distance, slow and long rail route (either Reddish Vale or the A6) and low levels of town centre demand. You would need around 2 million passengers a year to make it viable and  rail doesn't have the same advantages over the car going to Stockport as it does Manchester. Unfortunately it will never pass a value for money check or a serious business case assessment. For example, what comparative advantages would a tram have over buses going down the A6, very few but it would cost millions to build.

Unfortunately the people in power in the early 1980s decided to close the old Cheshire Lines freight line that connected Romiley/Woodley with Stockport and Warrington. It should have been retained, but its been built on by Morrison's at Bredbury, M60, Tescos etc. The other facing North link link that comes out at Reddish viaduct is still there until Tescos at Portwood, but you would have to stop on the viaduct and reverse to access the old alignment, so its not really practical.

About 80 posts ago Marple Rambler suggested a route via Brinnington but again what advantages would a tram have against the much cheaper buses when its sat in traffic jams. To me trams only work when they are in traffic free environments, this is why they were scrapped 60 years ago.