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Duke Fame

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Re: Anyone but Labour
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2015, 12:00:19 PM »
Well I sincerely doubt you've earned as little as the minimum wage since it's introduction. As somebody who's been both employed and unemployed at the minimum wage during it's time I can say I'd rather suffer small spells of unemployment if the jobs that I was applying for paid enough to make them worth doing! Breaking Bad(fiction though it is) is good example of the shambles that is letting businesses set their own wages and what that can drive decent hardworking people to do. Do we really want a society where breaking the law is securer than abiding by it? It might sound outlandish but in the wake of the riots there are young people who feel that way. Crime was much more commonplace in Victorian Britain than it is now largely due to desperation. Do we really want to go back in that direction?

Young people are hard to employ because they often don't have the skills to provide a positive influence on profit. If an employee is costing more than they contribute, they don't get employed, the youngest, least experience are most at risk. Raising the cost of people means they don't get the skills to develop.


The young are already feeling left out by a country where success is largely predetermined by which schools your parents can afford to send you to and average houses cost more than the vast majority earn in twenty years.

That is utter rubbish, success is largely predetermined to haw well the child did at school, the effort they put in and yes, a certain amount of the effort the parents put into raising their child.



When British Rail was nationalised? Do you mean privatised? That explains why there has been such a transformation although Manchester as a whole became much nicer in the 00's than it had been in the 80's and 90's. True a shopping centre isn't always the best thing however in Liverpool's case it has been a change for the better. Where there were just crumbling empty factories now there is energy and activity and people actually want to visit. Heseltine did make a good start with the Festival Gardens but it is under New Labour and Louise Ellman that Liverpool has rejuvenated itself. Again having the increase in university students in the city centre has added to this..

Yes, I mean privatised. I didn't live in Manchester in the 80's but I suspect it was similar to my hometown, Reading where railway stations were not pleasant environments. On privatisation, the realisation that train stations could be a leisure & retail hub became reality. As we all had a bit more money in the 80's, retail boomed and this continued through the 90's.

Heseltine was the first to try the rejuvenation and Liverpool took more effort than say Gateshead where the legacy of the Garden festival  far more positive which may just be down to a better attitude to work in the North East.


You seem determined not to acknowledge anything positive about Labour. Even Conservative MP's aren't that partisan. Can you identify a Conservative government that got absolutely everything right because I certainly can't?

I have voted Labour in the past, my issue with the last Labour opposition / proposition was that it spent 2010-2015 pretending that it would be doing something different to the coalition and an about turn from their time in govt. Scarily, they seemed to not understand their mistakes in govt. They then came up with a manifesto that in many parts had no reflection of that they were saying for 5 years in opposition and some policies were just stupid politics rather than logical economics.

I thought that Labour '97-2001 were generally OK,

I really don't understand the way some people support a particular party as they would a football club. To me, you can't support a party regardless of the policies.

Without the Labour movement's input this country would be a far more dangerous place. It's presence has liberalised the Conservatives and as such there's been a relatively smooth transition to a society which at best is one of the most humane and inclusive in the world. Without this we'd be more like America with it's horrible interracial and homophobic prejudices, barbaric health insurance policies and degrading service industries. I know which I'd rather.

I really don't get that, you are tarring the whole of the continent of America as "having horrible interracial and homophobic prejudices" that seems to me a problem with your own prejudices.

The Labour movement did not change society, society did. Trade, interaction etc changed society over time, it's not a political movement that changes people.



Managing the country's finances well is largely what won the Conservatives this election. However the coalition's legacy will also be one of disillusion with a broken electoral system, food banks, demonisation of immigrants and the homeless and ultimately the Lib Dems taking the blame for the last five years (despite taking some of the sharp corners off some of the more brutal Conservative policies). The last five years hasn't been the best for everybody. I wonder whether this new government will take responsibility for it's own shortcomings instead of looking for scapegoats. I recognise the good things they have achieved but I'm not going to whitewash the bad.

I think the language you use is a bit silly, yes there are people who are feeling the pinch but people do have to take responsibility for themselves.



As I say I would never follow any party blindly but I can recognise good and bad in every British government. I recognise that the financial stability that Cameron and Osborne are providing is what the country needs right now but there will come a time when electoral reform, affordable housing and the greed and dehumanising influence of the corporations are what need prioritising too. I'd be surprised if the Prime Minister to do that is a Conservative. To be fair I don't see much promise in the current Labour candidates either but who knows?

Chukka would have been decent, Liz is OK but the others are a worry.

RWW

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Re: Anyone but Labour
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2015, 02:08:13 PM »
Well I sincerely doubt you've earned as little as the minimum wage since it's introduction. As somebody who's been both employed and unemployed at the minimum wage during it's time I can say I'd rather suffer small spells of unemployment if the jobs that I was applying for paid enough to make them worth doing! Breaking Bad(fiction though it is) is good example of the shambles that is letting businesses set their own wages and what that can drive decent hardworking people to do. Do we really want a society where breaking the law is securer than abiding by it? It might sound outlandish but in the wake of the riots there are young people who feel that way. Crime was much more commonplace in Victorian Britain than it is now largely due to desperation. Do we really want to go back in that direction? The young are already feeling left out by a country where success is largely predetermined by which schools your parents can afford to send you to and average houses cost more than the vast majority earn in twenty years.

When British Rail was nationalised? Do you mean privatised? That explains why there has been such a transformation although Manchester as a whole became much nicer in the 00's than it had been in the 80's and 90's. True a shopping centre isn't always the best thing however in Liverpool's case it has been a change for the better. Where there were just crumbling empty factories now there is energy and activity and people actually want to visit. Heseltine did make a good start with the Festival Gardens but it is under New Labour and Louise Ellman that Liverpool has rejuvenated itself. Again having the increase in university students in the city centre has added to this.

You seem determined not to acknowledge anything positive about Labour. Even Conservative MP's aren't that partisan. Can you identify a Conservative government that got absolutely everything right because I certainly can't?
Without the Labour movement's input this country would be a far more dangerous place. It's presence has liberalised the Conservatives and as such there's been a relatively smooth transition to a society which at best is one of the most humane and inclusive in the world. Without this we'd be more like America with it's horrible interracial and homophobic prejudices, barbaric health insurance policies and degrading service industries. I know which I'd rather.

Managing the country's finances well is largely what won the Conservatives this election. However the coalition's legacy will also be one of disillusion with a broken electoral system, food banks, demonisation of immigrants and the homeless and ultimately the Lib Dems taking the blame for the last five years (despite taking some of the sharp corners off some of the more brutal Conservative policies). The last five years hasn't been the best for everybody. I wonder whether this new government will take responsibility for it's own shortcomings instead of looking for scapegoats. I recognise the good things they have achieved but I'm not going to whitewash the bad.

As I say I would never follow any party blindly but I can recognise good and bad in every British government. I recognise that the financial stability that Cameron and Osborne are providing is what the country needs right now but there will come a time when electoral reform, affordable housing and the greed and dehumanising influence of the corporations are what need prioritising too. I'd be surprised if the Prime Minister to do that is a Conservative. To be fair I don't see much promise in the current Labour candidates either but who knows?

Duke Fame

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Re: Anyone but Labour
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2015, 11:11:29 AM »
Actually I was talking about the 1997-2010 governments. My point was that there were successes within those years. The minimum wage IS important to those who aren't already wadded. I don't have faith in businesses left to their own devices to set fair wages.

No, it creates unemployment, especially at times of recession.

Yes there was a big boom in university education under Blair. I have had the opportunity to go to university which my parents never really had. The tuition fees spike came later but it's thanks to the outgoing Lib Dems that you have to earn £21k before you start paying it off.

Quite, I was very lucky in that I'm old enough to have got a grant but I always felt this was wrong. OK, in my day, you needed to get the grades to get in and that helped in getting better value for money for the government but nevertheless, it seemed ridiculous that as an adult who made a choice to go into further education, I should go cap in hand to the state who then taxed people's earnings to pay for me to increase my earning potential.

The system created by the coalition is excellent, it's a progressive graduate tax without the incentive to take the graduate skills away to a low tax economy. The proposal from Labour in the last election was not thought through, it actually gave the most successful high earning graduates a £9,000 tax cut, far more costly than the so called 'tax cut for millionaires [sic]' they were shouting about earlier in opposition.

To say the northern cities were not rejuvenated under the Blair government is a joke. Liverpool and Manchester got their pride back under the Blair government. Look at the change to Piccadilly station. Look at Liverpool One. Both occurred under the Labour government.

Picadilly improved when BR was nationalised and a shopping precinct does not particularly make Liverpool a vibrant city. Hesletine did more for Liverpool than Blair but sadly Liverpool did not do much for itself.

I'm not going to defend illegal wars or other stupid decisions but to say that no Labour government has ever been good for the country is as parochial as those on the left that say the same about the Conservatives. I'm interested in what legacy a majority Conservative government will leave. I actually though Mr Wragg was the best candidate in the Grove although I voted in a different constituency at this election.

I think the coalition's legacy of a better economy was the best that we could hope for. I think when PMs & govt start to worry about their legacy and doing 'big' things, it tends to go wrong, governments are not good at doing big things and people who work in govt (local or national) are usually there because they are not really capable. Let individuals do great things, government's job is to give them a framework and environment to achieve.

RWW

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Re: Anyone but Labour
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2015, 08:57:51 PM »
Actually I was talking about the 1997-2010 governments. My point was that there were successes within those years. The minimum wage IS important to those who aren't already wadded. I don't have faith in businesses left to their own devices to set fair wages.

Yes there was a big boom in university education under Blair. I have had the opportunity to go to university which my parents never really had. The tuition fees spike came later but it's thanks to the outgoing Lib Dems that you have to earn £21k before you start paying it off.

To say the northern cities were not rejuvenated under the Blair government is a joke. Liverpool and Manchester got their pride back under the Blair government. Look at the change to Piccadilly station. Look at Liverpool One. Both occurred under the Labour government.

I'm not going to defend illegal wars or other stupid decisions but to say that no Labour government has ever been good for the country is as parochial as those on the left that say the same about the Conservatives. I'm interested in what legacy a majority Conservative government will leave. I actually though Mr Wragg was the best candidate in the Grove although I voted in a different constituency at this election.

Duke Fame

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Re: Anyone but Labour
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2015, 11:40:02 PM »
Minimum wage

The Min Wage claim is nonsense, when it was bought in, the idea was independent analysis from The Low Pay Commission would set the nmw  from an independent body without gov't interference, now we have milli the lesser interfering for political purposes, not good economics. He's a nasty, evil piece of work.

Whilst I don't agree with the idea of restricting immigration (I suggest all can come and work but get rid of access to benefits and NHS) ukip have the only honest answer to low wages in that over supply is pushing down pay, its ultimately is the market that sets pay.


University education for ordinary people

Seriously? Have you worked this out? Reducing the fee for uni fees to £6k means the highest paid graduates save £3k of tax (or repayment which is the same thing). It's like so much of Labour policy, looks good but not been thought through because it simply forgoes billions for the benefit of the rich - is that really what was intended?

Primary school class sizes of thirty (before ove decided we needed to go back to the 1950's)

Rejuvenation of all the Northern cities...

Utter rubbish, Manchester and Leeds have had more emphasis under George Osbourne than ever. My family are from the north east and Labour have taken the north east for granted whilst offering nothing. If the north east voted anyone but labour, they'd get more attention.

Duke Fame

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Re: Anyone but Labour
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2015, 10:33:40 PM »
Historically that's doubtful, unless you are a died-in-the-wool Tory.  Most objective observers seem to regard the Attlee government of 1945 - 1950 and the first Blair government of 1997 - 2001 as having been broadly successful.

Blair was successful because Brown followed Clarke's spending plans. When he did his own thing he was the only chancellor in history to successfully spend his way out of a boom and prove himself the worst pm in the post war era

RWW

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Re: Anyone but Labour
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2015, 08:47:38 PM »
Also on illegal wars. One word: Suez

RWW

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Re: Anyone but Labour
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2015, 08:41:45 PM »
Minimum wage
University education for ordinary people
Primary school class sizes of thirty (before Gove decided we needed to go back to the 1950's)
Rejuvenation of all the Northern cities...

wheels

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Re: Anyone but Labour
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2015, 08:32:33 PM »
Labour Government ah you mean lets have another illegal war.

JMC

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Re: Anyone but Labour
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2015, 08:28:59 PM »
I disagree and would be thrilled with Labour in government. Beats what we have now. Also fingers crossed for a good result for Michael Taylor locally. 

Melancholyflower

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Re: Anyone but Labour
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2015, 06:18:59 PM »
Historically that's doubtful, unless you are a died-in-the-wool Tory.  Most objective observers seem to regard the Attlee government of 1945 - 1950 and the first Blair government of 1997 - 2001 as having been broadly successful.

I'm struggling to remember too many successes from 1997-2001, Dave. There were some spectacularly good failures however.  Millennium Dome, Individual Learning Accounts, etc

wheels

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Re: Anyone but Labour
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2015, 04:06:27 PM »
Agreed Dave just as most observers also regard the Coalition as having been broadly succesful.

Dave

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Re: Anyone but Labour
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2015, 03:52:53 PM »
I think a Labour government would be a disaster, as all Labour governments have been.

Historically that's doubtful, unless you are a died-in-the-wool Tory.  Most objective observers seem to regard the Attlee government of 1945 - 1950 and the first Blair government of 1997 - 2001 as having been broadly successful. 

Henry_

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Re: Anyone but Labour
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2015, 12:23:52 PM »
I agree with Duke. Best way to keep Labour out is to vote Tory.

marple syrup

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Re: Anyone but Labour
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2015, 08:44:18 AM »
the left wing liberal David Cameron

Haha, good one!  :o