Marple Website Community Calendar
Archive => Archived Boards => Local Issues => Topic started by: CTCREP on November 14, 2020, 04:34:40 PM
-
Who makes the decisions?
We now have Road Humps in Marple, but who made the decision to put them there and why? Were no other proposals made?
Elsewhere we are discussing the benefits or otherwise of Road Humps, and also of Greater Manchester’s Walk Ride scheme as it relates to Marple.
I have been trying to find information about the Marple Walk Ride Consultation without success, whereas I could access the Romiley Walk Ride Consultation before the Consultation period was over and by which time over 2000 proposals had been made from residents.
I have since been told there is now a plea from Cllr Thornley to Marple Walk Ride Group members - which I can’t access - for anyone who has anything positive to say about the Road Humps in Marple.
Although there are Road Humps in Romiley these appeared about the same time as the closure of the Walk Ride Consultation, so extremely unlikely to have been the result of the Consultation.
So when, where and how was the Consultation about the Marple Road Humps held. Why is Cllr Thornely pleading for people to support the Humps - surely Councillors should report their constituent’s preferences, not campaign for one particular approach - and who made the decision to put the Humps there originally apparently without any consultation of the residents beforehand.
-
surely Councillors should report their constituent’s preferences, not campaign for one particular approach - .
A) I know from this forum that lots of people have differing views. So which should a councillor report as a preference.
B) we live in a representative democracy. We vote for people to make decisions on our behalf, not to run every single decision past us. Any elected representative is doing their job by taking a stance and running with it. You could argue that the system should be changed and there should be more public consultation. Hey, maybe even lots of local referendums. But that is a whole other debate.
-
Hello Howard
You said:-
B) we live in a representative democracy. We vote for people to make decisions on our behalf, not to run every single decision past us. Any elected representative is doing their job by taking a stance and running with it.
The significant point here is word ‘Representative’. Our Councillors are elected to represent our views, not their own.
You could argue that the system should be changed and there should be more public consultation. Hey, maybe even lots of local referendums. But that is a whole other debate.
This is actually my point and the purpose of this Topic.
I do not remember seeing any Official Notice saying the Council intended to put road humps down in Marple. Usually this is done by notices attached to Lamp Posts etc. which of course are not read by motorists who will be mainly affected by the proposal.
I thought we may have been consulted through the Transport for Greater Manchester’s Walk Ride GM scheme. There is a Marple Walk Ride Group. but this is said to be accessible through Facebook. Several other areas also have a Twitter Account. While not a fan of either I reluctantly tried to join the Marple Walk Ride Facebook Group about a month ago and I am still waiting to be accepted. In the mean time, apparently, Cllr Thornley is trying to drum up support for the Road Humps having never asked Marple Residents if we wanted them in the first place.
I cannot understand why the proposal to put Road Humps in Marple wasn’t publicised more widely and particularly through this Web Site, and I would like to know who, how and why the Road Humps decision was made.
So, yes, we need to change the system as at present it appears someone, largely out of touch with present day thinking, is making decisions for Marple that affect us all and we aren’t being given any opportunity discuss the situation first.
-
Hello Howard
You said:-
B) we live in a representative democracy. We vote for people to make decisions on our behalf, not to run every single decision past us. Any elected representative is doing their job by taking a stance and running with it.
The significant point here is word ‘Representative’. Our Councillors are elected to represent our views, not their own.
Yeah, like it or not, I don't think that really sums up our democracy.
To take an example from Westminster - If we voted for people to represent our views, not their own, we'd still have capital punishment. Until relatively recently, our elected representatives in Westminster were very out of kilter with the public view on that one. For decades the majority of the public were in favour of it. Yet we got rid of it.
We get the opportunity at elections to vote for the person who "best" fits our views. And that's it. After that, it's down to the winner. Be it in Westminster or Stockport Council. If you don't like what the person does, then you have to wait til the next election and try and get rid of them. That's the system.
You could argue that the system should be changed and there should be more public consultation. Hey, maybe even lots of local referendums. But that is a whole other debate.
This is actually my point and the purpose of this Topic.
I do not remember seeing any Official Notice saying the Council intended to put road humps down in Marple. Usually this is done by notices attached to Lamp Posts etc. which of course are not read by motorists who will be mainly affected by the proposal.
I thought we may have been consulted through the Transport for Greater Manchester’s Walk Ride GM scheme. There is a Marple Walk Ride Group. but this is said to be accessible through Facebook. Several other areas also have a Twitter Account. While not a fan of either I reluctantly tried to join the Marple Walk Ride Facebook Group about a month ago and I am still waiting to be accepted. In the mean time, apparently, Cllr Thornley is trying to drum up support for the Road Humps having never asked Marple Residents if we wanted them in the first place.
I cannot understand why the proposal to put Road Humps in Marple wasn’t publicised more widely and particularly through this Web Site, and I would like to know who, how and why the Road Humps decision was made.
So, yes, we need to change the system as at present it appears someone, largely out of touch with present day thinking, is making decisions for Marple that affect us all and we aren’t being given any opportunity discuss the situation first.
Who says Marple residents don't want them? Who says the decision is being made by someone out of touch? Like I said before, there are many many views. And those who shout loudest are not always the majority. A comment I noticed Grant Shapps - Secretary of State for Transport - recently made to councils by the way.
Anyway, I don't know much about the ins and outs of the decision making, but it was discussed in another thread. Where you will see there are various views.
https://www.marple-uk.com/smf/index.php?topic=8735.45
If you look at reply 23, Admin mentioned this was discussed at the Marple Area Committee. "I seem to recall some reasons were offered around the money not being available for long enough to do [a consultation]"
https://www.marple-uk.com/smf/index.php?topic=8735.msg51859#msg51859
Worth noting - these changes are temporary, related to Covid-19. They may become permanent. They may not. There are apparently various related schemes across Stockport.
-
And here, incidentally, is the Council news release
https://www.stockport.gov.uk/news/new-measures-introduced-in-stockports-district-centres-as-part-of-safe
-
Who says Marple residents don't want them? Who says the decision is being made by someone out of touch? Like I said before, there are many many views. And those who shout loudest are not always the majority. A comment I noticed Grant Shapps - Secretary of State for Transport - recently made to councils by the way.
to quote from Cllr Steve Gribbons request for feedback on these speed humps.
"We have recieved several hundred messages that have resulted in the following...
For 18%
Against 68%
Other suggestions 14%"
Once this news was published, all but 1 of the 70 reactions to the post of Marple Community Hub facebook page gave this result a thumbs up!
I firmly believe that this meesage clearly shows that Marple residents don't want them Andrew Bowden
-
I firmly believe that this message clearly shows that Marple residents don't want them Andrew Bowden
It could be that Cllr @Aron Thornley has been trying to get people who do support the speed humps to speak up because usually people who are happy don't complain. He may be trying to obtain a more balanced picture. But by tagging him in the post Aron may decide to tell us himself.
-
It could be that Cllr @Aron Thornley has been trying to get people who do support the speed humps to speak up because usually people who are happy don't complain. He may be trying to obtain a more balanced picture. But by tagging him in the post Aron may decide to tell us himself.
A best of three votes approach ;)
"hundreds of responses" but we didn't like the stats so we'll try again?
-
to quote from Cllr Steve Gribbons request for feedback on these speed humps.
"We have recieved several hundred messages that have resulted in the following...
For 18%
Against 68%
Other suggestions 14%"
Once this news was published, all but 1 of the 70 reactions to the post of Marple Community Hub facebook page gave this result a thumbs up!
I firmly believe that this meesage clearly shows that Marple residents don't want them Andrew Bowden
It is well known that people who are anti something tend to be very vocal. People who don't mind, less so.
People who don't mind things, don't tend to make their voices clear.
And that is the reality. You don't have a representative survey. You have a survey that is self selecting. And that is not the same.
Now it may be that you are right. That Marple is very anti speed bumps. But I doubt you will find many statisticians who will say you have proof of that right now.
-
A best of three votes approach ;)
"hundreds of responses" but we didn't like the stats so we'll try again?
Incidentally I will be happy to share my views with Aaron. If anyone would actually tell me how to. Because that hasn't actually been revealed to me.
My personal views have been clear on this website already. I am happy with a 20mph zone but the current speed bumps are not nice to drive over.
-
The good news is Romiley’s humps will be replaced with far better, flatter speed tables and the centre will keep the 20mph limit as part of its WalkRide/Bee Network improvements.
https://consultation.stockport.gov.uk/policy-performance-and-reform/romiley-crossings-consultation/
The temporary humps in both came from the “Safe Streets Save Lives” effort, a pot of money shared by Greater Manchester to calm streets and aid walking and cycling during COVID-19 (the thinking partly being its easier to step into or cross a 20mph calmed road if need be than what these centres used to be like).
Romiley is getting better, more permanent measures installed to enable safer walking and cycling (with a full consultation) because it has a very active and successful WalkRide group of residents who worked really hard to engage with people and make this happen over several years. Hopefully WalkRide Marple (and Marple’s councillors) can do the same here before too long.
-
Incidentally I will be happy to share my views with Aaron. If anyone would actually tell me how to. Because that hasn't actually been revealed to me.
My personal views have been clear on this website already. I am happy with a 20mph zone but the current speed bumps are not nice to drive over.
It was Councillor @Steve Gribbon who shared the email address marpletraffic@gmail.com and invited residents to share their views on the speed humps and other measures. Unfortunately he has omitted or chosen not to share it on this forum as far as I can see.
-
Good morning
Firstly my apologies for not posting the email address or related information on this site, it was a genuine oversight and all being well will not happen again.
The marpletraffic@gmail.com email address was set up because we Councillors were receiving a lot of correspondence regarding this matter, to me it was the easiest way to collate opinions (I must stress all contact details have remained private on the site).
The decision not to do a simple tick box survey was made because I did not believe it would allow people to add in their own personal views. I was very grateful with the amount of people who responded and I would welcome members of this site to come forward with their thoughts as they can be forwarded accordingly. All information received is being passed to highways officers for consideration.
It is correct that a larger proportion of comments were anti speed bumps but very few were against a 20MPH zone, there were a variety of different reasons why ranging from health issues to the environment and vehicle damage. This issue has raised the profile of how do we create a safe area for our Town Centre. I am currently working on a project which identifies how other places have improved their district centres and hope (depending on restrictions being lifted) to be presenting what information I have and I will of course be using this site to do so.
I hope this clarifies any issues regarding my involvement with the speed bumps and once again admin my apologies for missing this site off.
Kind regards and stay safe
Steve
-
Thank you Steve for bringing the marpletraffic@gmail.com link to this forum where it will get far greater prominence.
Although the Walk Ride Consultation period is over, the problems most certainly aren’t
So can you arrange for an interactive map as was provided by Romiley Walk Ride Group which enabled residents to pin point their comments and which received over 2000 responses.
We can then easily see where the problems are and offer our solutions and, hopefully, our Councillors can take our comments forward to whoever decides what to do.
Thanks
-
Was there a shared space suggestion a while ago? what happened to that, it would keep traffic to a 20mph speed.
-
Thank you Steve for bringing the marpletraffic@gmail.com link to this forum where it will get far greater prominence.
Although the Walk Ride Consultation period is over, the problems most certainly aren’t
So can you arrange for an interactive map as was provided by Romiley Walk Ride Group which enabled residents to pin point their comments and which received over 2000 responses.
We can then easily see where the problems are and offer our solutions and, hopefully, our Councillors can take our comments forward to whoever decides what to do.
Thanks
Thank you for your message
I will speak to Aron Thornley who is the walk/ride lead for us and see if anything map-wise has been developed, if this is the case I will request he places a link on this thread. Please feel free to use the marpletraffic@gmail.com email address with any thoughts and I will of course keep checking on here for the same.
Kind regards
Steve
-
I am surprised that more people don't object to the 20mph limit, which is essentially pointless. Like almost all drivers, I won't drive that fast when there is the slightest risk of it being too fast for the circumstances, regardless of the limit. The very few who don't drive like that will not take any notice of speed limits anyway.
As it is, I do obviously obey the limit (although I generally take a longer route to avoid it), and so trundle along at 20mph along an empty road with no pedestrians on the pavements or anywhere near the road.
Avoiding the 20mph limit, even when I'd not be exceeding 20mph anyway is of course what a great many people will be doing, thus losing custom for the shops in the area; particularly for passing traffic.
-
I am surprised that more people don't object to the 20mph limit, which is essentially pointless. Like almost all drivers, I won't drive that fast when there is the slightest risk of it being too fast for the circumstances, regardless of the limit. The very few who don't drive like that will not take any notice of speed limits anyway.
As it is, I do obviously obey the limit (although I generally take a longer route to avoid it), and so trundle along at 20mph along an empty road with no pedestrians on the pavements or anywhere near the road.
Avoiding the 20mph limit, even when I'd not be exceeding 20mph anyway is of course what a great many people will be doing, thus losing custom for the shops in the area; particularly for passing traffic.
Very good points @Condate and I copletely agree with you. 20mph is a great idea, but enforcing it for the very few who don't abide by it with humps will simply not work and only serve to inconvenience those who do.
Myopic and obsessive Stockport Council Highways team wins again and we all lose!
-
Was there a shared space suggestion a while ago? what happened to that, it would keep traffic to a 20mph speed.
That was my suggestion along with other ideas to promote safer routes to schools. I've shared it with councillors. I'm not certain there was an enthusiastic response.
We need a a serious commitment from local councillors and a vision. Something positive to look to, something exciting and transformative. At present there is just some tinkering around the edges that satisfies no one and we are being left behind local towns with money being spend elsewhere.
Central government have published loads of guidance recently which should be adopted, for instance this one - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cycle-infrastructure-design-ltn-120 (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cycle-infrastructure-design-ltn-120)
There have also been loads of recent studies into the benefits of modal filters and LTNs and with the changes to ANPR regulations it means that they can be easily and cheaply enforced outside on London. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/16/claim-low-traffic-schemes-only-benefit-better-off-debunked-in-new-study (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/16/claim-low-traffic-schemes-only-benefit-better-off-debunked-in-new-study)
I think Steve mentioned that this was in the hand of the highways department and I think this is one of the issues - Marple is more than roads. We need a decent urban planner who can focus on the whole area and the interaction between where people live, are educated, shop and use transport links as well as road layouts.
Andy
-
I can’t agree more with Jimblobs statement that this:- Myopic and obsessive Stockport Council Highways team wins again and we all lose!
As far as I am aware the road humps were put in without any public consultation, of if there was one then it was successfully hidden away.
It has cost us money which the Council repeatedly says is not available when other requests are put forward.
In there own web link:-
https://www.stockport.gov.uk/news/new-measures-introduced-in-stockports-district-centres-as-part-of-safeI
Cllr David Meller, Cabinet Member for Economy and Regeneration, said: “As we learn to live with COVID-19, it is really important that the re-opening of our retail sector is done so as safely as possible. I am confident that we have done all we can across the borough to ensure it is a safe and welcoming place for you to shop, live, work and enjoy”.
“These new measures in our district centres will help residents navigate the areas safely and maintain social distancing at all times, while encouraging people to walk or cycle over using the car”.
“I am really grateful to those local councillors who have engaged positively with the Safe Street Save Lives campaign and offered their feedback on how best to support their communities’ district centres. If local traders and residents like the arrangements then there is the option to make them permanent”.
“Our local businesses all need your support more than ever right now, so please support them by shopping local and giving back to the local economy”.
“It was those local businesses that were there for us during the height of the pandemic earlier this year and will no doubt be there for us in the coming weeks as we wrestle with a rise in cases.”
“The council expects the temporary schemes to be in place until Autumn 2021. A public consultation would take place before any decisions are made on whether the schemes are made permanent”.
So now the Council is to spend more money consulting us on whether or not we like what they have done and regrettably we shall be spending more money having the humps removed or made permanent.
Does this Council not realise that Romiley and Marple are primarily shopping centres, not just an area of shops either side of road? These roads are not the same as the A6 and we should be able to cross whenever and wherever we wish. Here pedestrians must take precedence if we are to do as Cllr David Meller says :- “Our local businesses all need your support more than ever right now, so please support them by shopping local and giving back to the local economy”, and it is Cllr Meller and other Councillors who should ensure Stockport Council does what its residents want, not for us to have to live a town that is out of touch with modern thinking.
-
I can’t agree more with Jimblobs statement that this:- Myopic and obsessive Stockport Council Highways team wins again and we all lose!
As far as I am aware the road humps were put in without any public consultation, of if there was one then it was successfully hidden away.
It has cost us money which the Council repeatedly says is not available when other requests are put forward.
The money came from central government. It came with tight time limits. It was with tight time limits because this was an emergency response related to some sort of pandemic you may have heard of? Something called Covid-19? You may have heard that we're supposed to stay 2m apart from each other? Or you may not. I don't know. But those of us who walk around a lot may have noticed that the pavements aren't always big and that to keep 2m apart, sometimes you might need to duck into the road.
So the council's choice was simple.
1) TRY TO MAKE MARPLE SAFER FOR RESIDENTS DURING A PANDEMIC
2) DON'T TRY TO MAKE MARPLE SAFER DURING A PANDEMIC
The council have clearly opted for 1. To do that they've tried to slow traffic with speedbumps and a 20mph.
Their other choice was 2.
If you don't want to drive over the speedbumps, don't drive through the 20mph zone. It's possible to avoid. Please do. Because you taking a different route will also achieve the goal of making Central Marple safer by reducing the cars.
You have the right to moan and whine about them. That's free speech. But when you do so NEVER FORGET why they are there. To help make Marple safer during a pandemic which has spread through the world like wildfire, and which is killing people.
-
The money came from central government. It came with tight time limits. It was with tight time limits because this was an emergency response related to some sort of pandemic you may have heard of? Something called Covid-19? You may have heard that we're supposed to stay 2m apart from each other? Or you may not. I don't know. But those of us who walk around a lot may have noticed that the pavements aren't always big and that to keep 2m apart, sometimes you might need to duck into the road.
So the council's choice was simple.
1) TRY TO MAKE MARPLE SAFER FOR RESIDENTS DURING A PANDEMIC
2) DON'T TRY TO MAKE MARPLE SAFER DURING A PANDEMIC
The council have clearly opted for 1. To do that they've tried to slow traffic with speedbumps and a 20mph.
Their other choice was 2.
If you don't want to drive over the speedbumps, don't drive through the 20mph zone. It's possible to avoid. Please do. Because you taking a different route will also achieve the goal of making Central Marple safer by reducing the cars.
You have the right to moan and whine about them. That's free speech. But when you do so NEVER FORGET why they are there. To help make Marple safer during a pandemic which has spread through the world like wildfire, and which is killing people.
Sadly, @andrewbowden they haven't made Marple safer! They have introduced grater risk; raised cushions within 30m of a pedestrian crossing is considered poor road design as drivers vision is diverted from the crossing and the lights and to the speed cushions they're trying deperately to avoid! In a 30mph limit it's not even permitted in the regulations!
-
Sadly, @andrewbowden they haven't made Marple safer! They have introduced grater risk; raised cushions within 30m of a pedestrian crossing is considered poor road design as drivers vision is diverted from the crossing and the lights and to the speed cushions they're trying deperately to avoid! In a 30mph limit it's not even permitted in the regulations!
So get rid of the speed cushion that's 30m away from a crossing then. How many does that affect?
If there's a problem with a specific cushion, GET IT FIXED.
-
Also, apart from the speed Lumps being a disaster, in no way do they relate to the Covid situation. What do relate to Covid are the bollards on the pavement in the centre of Marple that strictly makes the pavement useless if we are to adhere to the social distancing advice. The Council hasn't rushed to remove them.
I can understand some people being fearful of the speed of vehicles through Marple and elsewhere, but teken right down to basics this is only a fear. You would stand almost as close to the edge of a platform when an express train goes through but you wouldn't attempt to cross the rails. The same applies in Marple. If you use all the, often inconvenient, provisions for crossing the road you are perfectly safe apart from the actions of Law Breakers who cannot be accounted for under any scheme.
Merple Centre is a Shopping Area and should be Pedestrian Priority, and outdated Speed Lumps do nothing at all to enable people shop conveniently.
-
Marple Centre is a Shopping Area and should be Pedestrian Priority
Parts of Marple are a shopping area and were already extremely well served by pedestrian crossing. There is no need whatsoever for any further measures. As well as being a driver, I also use Marple a lot as a pedestrian and always found it very pedestrian friendly. Just because I use the area as a pedestrian, does not mean I want motorists to be considered of any less importance than pedestrians.
-
Perhaps some of the pedestrians using Marple shops arrived by car, and they are therefore the “speeding” motorists that are now being discouraged from coming to Marple by the road humps, still it helps with the social distancing if there are less folk about.
-
So get rid of the speed cushion that's 30m away from a crossing then. How many does that affect?
If there's a problem with a specific cushion, GET IT FIXED.
I have raised this with the Highways team, they have as yet not responded!
the same argument for not having them near to a crossing does of coure apply to humps generally, they divert the attention of the driver away from their surroundings downwarsd and towards the hump and only the hump!
-
With regards to the crossing and speed bumps, we could quite easily convert each crossing into a table with a zebra.
It allows level access for pedestrians and the less abled, prioritises pedestrian movement but allows traffic to flow at other times and introduces an element of traffic calming.
You could also have a series of 5 or 6 zebra crossings which would allow more people to cross the road at more even intervals much like every continental European town.
-
With regards to the crossing and speed bumps, we could quite easily convert each crossing into a table with a zebra.
It allows level access for pedestrians and the less abled, prioritises pedestrian movement but allows traffic to flow at other times and introduces an element of traffic calming.
You could also have a series of 5 or 6 zebra crossings which would allow more people to cross the road at more even intervals much like every continental European town.
Not forgetting of course that Marple is classed as a town and whilst Stockport Road A626 is the main route through it, the continutation of the A626 at the junction of the petrol station is onto Station Road. Stockport Road itself continues through Marple as the B6101. This designation isn't obvious as Station Road is narrow as far as "A" designated roads through a town are concerned. My point here is that, until such time as there is any kind of significant alternative route around Marple centre for through traffic, any measures taken will be compromised and unlikely to make the issue of congestion and therefore safety better for either pedestrians or motorists.
-
I agree - but I do wonder whether we actually know where that through traffic comes from or goes to?
Traffic from Stockport / Motorways would either terminate in the residential areas of Marple, Rose Hill to the west not making it as far as Marple district centre, Marple Bridge / Mellor / Compstall would stick with the A626 up Station Road (if not coming through Romiley/ Hyde) and I'd suggest that Hawk Green and High Lane traffic would take a route up Church Lane or Cross Lane. So this leaves those travelling from Stockport to New Mills heading through the centre of town. (on the correct road) Obviously people will use different routes but it isn't necessary to have the B6101 from Chuis to the Regent Cinema as a major route. There are other ways. (One of those I've suggested would increase traffic by my house.)
So I'm going to stick my neck out on the line and say that a significant amount of traffic *in* Marple comes from *within* Marple. So, if we take steps to improve walking and cycling provision *within* Marple we will reduce traffic *in* Marple.
And with that I think we have gone full circle, again.
It will be interesting to see if the traffic calming measures in Romiley will lead to an increase in traffic through Marple.
Andy
Not forgetting of course that Marple is classed as a town and whilst Stockport Road A626 is the main route through it, the continutation of the A626 at the junction of the petrol station is onto Station Road. Stockport Road itself continues through Marple as the B6101. This designation isn't obvious as Station Road is narrow as far as "A" designated roads through a town are concerned. My point here is that, until such time as there is any kind of significant alternative route around Marple centre for through traffic, any measures taken will be compromised and unlikely to make the issue of congestion and therefore safety better for either pedestrians or motorists.
-
This thread is beginning to get away from the original subject which was to discover who really makes the decisions in Stockport.
I am not alone in this as elsewhere I found a comment from a Group called Streets for People who are saying “We need more honesty in this consultation process” , having realised the original Boardman plan for Bee Lines had been changed into the WalkRideGM scheme which invited local residents to put forward ideas on how to enable people to cycle or walk instead of using their cars,
Unfortunately there appears to be no Official help with this WalkRideGM scheme, it just relies on the skills of those involved. Now this is no criticism of any of the individuals involved, but WalkRideMarple is a Private Group that you access by having to join via Facebook which some people want nothing to do with. There appears to be little progress being made, whereas WalkRide Romiley has various access points including their own Web Site through which you could access a map and where residents created over 2000 points that they felt needed attention, and which SMBC has now accepted for consideration, but who will make the decision?.
With a Council that generally ignores any requests from the residents, and frequently wastes money on ill considered schemes of their own, such as Road Humps that are supposed to reduce the number of contacts with Covid 19, by all means discuss the Pro’s and Con’s of Road Humps but preferably elsewhere because the more important issue is who made that decision and how can we affect it for without knowing all this discussion on individual problems will get us nowhere.