Marple Community Forum & Noticeboard

Local Community => Local Issues => Topic started by: corium on July 23, 2020, 02:37:47 PM

Title: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: corium on July 23, 2020, 02:37:47 PM
Proposed that there are no services till 2021. Details on Willianm Wragg's social media feeds.

Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: andrewbowden on July 23, 2020, 04:33:20 PM
Crikes.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Rothers on July 23, 2020, 08:48:42 PM
copy of letter

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdnEFy_WsAE74kX?format=png&name=900x900)
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: amazon on July 23, 2020, 10:46:49 PM
Crikes.
The lack of cars on Marple carpark its worrying you dont relise how many people are not working or working from home .
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Dave on July 24, 2020, 07:44:55 AM
The lack of cars on Marple carpark its worrying you dont relise how many people are not working or working from home .
...... or choosing to drive to work?
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: hatter76 on July 24, 2020, 07:46:13 AM
It's very disappointing, there has been so much work been put in over recent years to boost footfall at Rose Hill. It was until recently the highest it's ever been rising from c55,000 per year a decade ago to over 150,000 per year.

When BR was running the line the first trains to be cancelled were always Rose Hill. If they were short of guards they would suspend the whole service.

Exactly the same now, you take the franchised operator out of the equation with fines and targets and you get decisions like this.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: admin on July 25, 2020, 06:47:52 AM
There are two petitions that can be "signed" online to support campaigns to fight these proposals:

https://www.lisasmart.org.uk/rose-hill-rail

https://www.williamwragg.org.uk/campaigns/save-rose-hill-marple-service-piccadilly
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Cyberman on July 25, 2020, 12:23:44 PM
Isn't Northern Rail now effectively Government run (DOHL - a subsidiary of the Department of Transport)? If so it's somewhat disingenuous of William Wragg to suggest it's naughty Northern Rail's fault. Someone should remind him that the esteemed David Cameron promised us the Greenest Government Ever and green governments don't push people from trains into cars.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Dave on July 25, 2020, 03:41:01 PM
Blimey Cyberman - it's a while since we saw the words 'esteemed' and 'David Cameron' in the same sentence!

As hatter says, it's unfortunate after all the good work that's been done to boost passenger numbers at Rose Hill in recent years. But right now numbers are pitiful, and unlikely to pick up for a while. And the reason given by Northern/ DOHL is all-too-convincing - a shortage of trained drivers.   So with alternative services available from Marple, and unprecedented amounts of space available in the car parks there,  the Rose Hill service was an obvious candidate for suspension.

And sadly the Wragg/ Smart petitions are just for show - they make the politicians look busy and committed to our interests, but they rarely have any effect.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: My login is Henrietta on July 26, 2020, 02:47:59 AM
Blimey Cyberman - it's a while since we saw the words 'esteemed' and 'David Cameron' in the same sentence!

As hatter says, it's unfortunate after all the good work that's been done to boost passenger numbers at Rose Hill in recent years. But right now numbers are pitiful, and unlikely to pick up for a while. And the reason given by Northern/ DOHL is all-too-convincing - a shortage of trained drivers.   So with alternative services available from Marple, and unprecedented amounts of space available in the car parks there,  the Rose Hill service was an obvious candidate for suspension.

And sadly the Wragg/ Smart petitions are just for show - they make the politicians look busy and committed to our interests, but they rarely have any effect.
"They" have been trying to close Rose Hill station and the line since I was a schoolgirl. Taking this opportunity to do it this time may just pull it off.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Melancholyflower on July 26, 2020, 09:55:47 PM
The manager of Northern Rail seems to put this squarely as a result of being unable to train people up to drive new trains.  Given the situation, why not keep the Pacer "fleet" going in the meantime if it serves the community as it did? 

He says a number of colleagues are "classified as vulnerable". By whom, and how? What are the criteria for someone being "invulnerable"?  How is it not possible to train a train driver in a controlled setting?  How does "uplifting" services on the Marple-New Mills corridor balance with removing it entirely from a different corridor?

We should not be too surprised. Until very recently train companies were actively discouraging people to travel.

We are now seeing a whole new universe of bureaucracy and regulation.

It's very sad news but a logical progression based on fear.  Expect more of this, and in other places.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Dave on July 29, 2020, 12:44:13 PM
Melancholy makes a good point about temporarily bringing back the ‘Pacers’ to solve the problem of driver training.

She also writes:
He says a number of colleagues are "classified as vulnerable". By whom, and how? What are the criteria for someone being "invulnerable"?

The government/ NHS classify people with certain long-term health conditions as vulnerable to the Coronavirus- diabetes, respiratory diseases, cancer etc.  Also older people (eg over 70). They are supposed to take extra precautions and not mix with others, so they probably couldn’t undergo driver training.

To be honest I think all the petitions are an over-reaction. Very few people are using the trains at the moment. Northern have clearly got a problem, but it should be a temporary one. There’s no reason to see this as a sneaky way of achieving permanent closure of Rose Hill. I think we should all calm down and take Northern at their word.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: andrewbowden on July 31, 2020, 06:05:37 PM
The manager of Northern Rail seems to put this squarely as a result of being unable to train people up to drive new trains.  Given the situation, why not keep the Pacer "fleet" going in the meantime if it serves the community as it did? 

Some Pacers are still running.  Hang around Marple and you will see them.  Due to disability laws, they have to be coupled with an accessible train. So you will see them coupled up to something else.

But ultimately what they want/need is to get rid of them and ensure their shiny new trains are running (n.b. not that they are due to serve Marple.) because otherwise you have millions of pounds worth of trains hanging round that are unusable. How long do you keep them sat there?  It could take years otherwise.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Melancholyflower on August 01, 2020, 10:36:57 AM
She also writes:
The government/ NHS classify people with certain long-term health conditions as vulnerable to the Coronavirus- diabetes, respiratory diseases, cancer etc.  Also older people (eg over 70). They are supposed to take extra precautions and not mix with others, so they probably couldn’t undergo driver training.

Yes, but train drivers are no different to other driving professions in that they have to have basic good health, are tested for serious conditions when they enroll, and have regular medicals to test for these things. They are therefore highly unlikely to be classed as vulnerable people.  I also find it unlikely that the only people qualified to train the drivers are over 70 or seriously ill, too.

I agree the petitions are an over-reaction and guaranteed to get public sympathy and support (which is why the local politicians are climbing on them). I'm not so sure that services would resume again though. So much about this crisis is taking away things and being very reluctant to give them back.

Andrewbowden I don't disagree that Pacers have to go, but for the sake of keeping a service open for everyone it's better having them than no trains at all. 
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: FoRHS142 on August 02, 2020, 04:17:49 PM
Hello, the Friends of Rose Hill Station have started discussions with Northern, TfGM and other groups about the temporary cancellation.
Our first Press Release is attached. ITV Granada Reports also filmed at the station last Tuesday 28th July and we are waiting now for it to be broadcast.

Obviously we need all the support to oppose this terrible decision so let me know if you have any questions or require contact details of relevant indiviuals using the email address quoted in the press release.

Thanks



Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Dave on August 03, 2020, 05:44:09 PM
Melancholy writes:
train drivers are no different to other driving professions in that they have to have basic good health, are tested for serious conditions when they enroll, and have regular medicals to test for these things. They are therefore highly unlikely to be classed as vulnerable people. 

Well the regional director of Northern says they have 'a number of colleagues who are classified as vulnerable'. Unless we are calling him a liar (I hope not!), then we have to take him at his word.

In any job, including driving trains, staff can over time develop chronic medical conditions.  Some of these, such as asthma, bronchitis,  type 2 diabetes, are manageable, and don't prevent staff from continuing to do their jobs.  But they do make them vulnerable to covid-19. 

All employers are obliged to make 'reasonable adjustments' to an employee's working conditions in order to accommodate illness or disability, as long as the illness or disability doesn't prevent them from doing their job.  In the case of a train driver, my guess is that they would be OK to continue to drive, because they will normally be alone in the cab and therefore 'socially distanced'. But they would not be able to have anyone else in the cab with them, which would presumably rule out being trained on new trains.

So it does appear that Northern have got a real problem. I wish FoRHS luck with their petition, but it's hard to see what the solution might be.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: FoRHS142 on August 04, 2020, 08:05:48 AM
Thanks for the comment and clearly Northern have had problems with staffing levels and insufficient number of staff to meet their agreed service levels for some time. However we are arguing the point that their claim that this service is lightly used is not justified and why us? We have official ORR (Office of Rail and Road) numbers that passenger traffic has increased on this line by  40% in the last 5 years and, on an annual basis, would affect around 250,000 passengers travelling to and from Manchester.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: admin on August 04, 2020, 06:28:53 PM
An article has been added to the main site about Friends of Rose Hill Station and other rail user groups' fight to stop train cuts proposed for Rose Hill to Manchester Piccadilly line:

https://www.marple.website/community-projects/fighting-rose-hill-cuts.html (https://www.marple.website/community-projects/fighting-rose-hill-cuts.html)

(https://www.marple.website/images/rose-hill-fight2.jpg)
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: admin on August 26, 2020, 06:40:54 AM
Friends of Rose Hill Station are disappointed to report the following update on this issue:

William Wragg MP (Con Hazel Grove) very recently attended a meeting with Northern alongside Andrew Gwynne MP (Lab, Denton and Reddish), Jonathon Reynolds (Lab, Stalybridge and Hyde) and Cllr David Meller from Stockport MBC where they all put the strongest case against the temporary closure of the Rose Hill to Manchester via Hyde line, but unfortunately, as it stands Northern were unable to reverse this decision.

William is in close contact with the Rail Minister to bring pressure to bear and continue to campaign against this proposed closure.

The closure of the line is scheduled from Monday 14 September until Monday 14 December 2020 with alternative travel options including a shuttle bus service Mondays to Saturdays linking Rose Hill, Marple and Romiley stations. In addition the shuttle bus will also serve Woodley during peak times in the morning and afternoons for schoolchildren.

We have not given up the fight yet and are reviewing our options but you can also help by signing one of the following petitions, if you have not already done so.

https://www.williamwragg.org.uk/campaigns/save-rose-hill-marple-service-piccadilly

https://www.lisasmart.org.uk/rose-hill-rail
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: admin on August 29, 2020, 07:29:12 AM
Update 29 August 2020

An Extraordinary, Marple Area Committee meeting has been called for Wednesday, 2nd September, 2020 6.00pm. regarding the Temporary Withdrawal of the rail service on the on the Rose Hill Line. This will be a webcast remote meeting that can be watched live or on catch-up:

http://democracy.stockport.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?MId=27839&EVT=101&DT=A
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: FoRHS142 on August 29, 2020, 08:19:58 AM
Thanks for the notification Mark.

Also to note that Northern has now issued the replacement shuttle bus timetable during the line closure and the Monday to Friday service is attached for comments.

There is also a special page on Northern's website about travel options at all the stations affected on the Hyde Loop.

www.northernrailway.co.uk/rosehill2020 (http://www.northernrailway.co.uk/rosehill2020)
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: admin on September 01, 2020, 07:31:40 PM
Save Rose Hill Line!

There is now a new web site on-line about saving the Rose Hill Line: https://saverosehill.co.uk/ (https://saverosehill.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: admin on September 02, 2020, 08:22:41 PM
Well! Did you watch it? That was a pretty radical proposal at the end!

You should be able to watch it back via this link later:

http://democracy.stockport.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?MId=27839&EVT=101&DT=A

Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: admin on September 03, 2020, 07:54:20 AM
Extraordinary conclusion to the Extraordinary Marple Area Committee Meeting on the closure of the Rose Hill Line last night!

Councillors propose to provide their own train service! Will it work?

Watch on catch-up: https://stockport.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/504796/start_time/6744000?force_language_code=en_GB (https://stockport.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/504796/start_time/6744000?force_language_code=en_GB)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eg-L5SIXkAAJS3t?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: admin on September 03, 2020, 03:50:22 PM
Here's an update from the LibDems

I think they're very keen to make it work - be a big feather in Lisa Smart's cap come the next elections too:

https://werneth.mycouncillor.org.uk/2020/09/03/local-lib-dems-agree-to-fund-rail-service-which-northern-plan-to-close/ (https://werneth.mycouncillor.org.uk/2020/09/03/local-lib-dems-agree-to-fund-rail-service-which-northern-plan-to-close/)
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: andrewbowden on September 03, 2020, 05:03:18 PM
Good luck to them.  I have no knowledge of running train services, but it's doing something - far more than our government is doing when it comes to their own railway service.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: amazon on September 03, 2020, 05:08:50 PM
Good luck to them.  I have no knowledge of running train services, but it's doing something - far more than our government is doing when it comes to their own railway service.
Who pays for it .
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Dave on September 03, 2020, 05:41:52 PM
Who pays for it .

Stockport Council (that means us). I believe it is expected to cost up to £30,000 to pay West Coast Railways to provide a service from Rose Hill to Guide Bridge for a week. Let’s hope a few people use it........
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: admin on September 04, 2020, 06:34:13 AM
Stockport Council (that means us). I believe it is expected to cost up to £30,000 to pay West Coast Railways to provide a service from Rose Hill to Guide Bridge for a week. Let’s hope a few people use it........

I'm not sure where you are picking up the £30k cost from @Dave ? I'm not saying it's wrong but I can't find any reference to the actual cost or where the funds are to come from. I don't believe they can take it from the Area Flexibility Funding - which is to support local organisations and groups - so it is probably coming from the Highways Maintenance and Local Initiatives Delegated budget (I have asked a local councillor to clarify).

I do think that this should be explained in these Frequently Asked Questions: https://www.lisasmart.org.uk/rose-hill-faqs (https://www.lisasmart.org.uk/rose-hill-faqs)

@Malcolm Allan  @Steve Gribbon  @BeckySenior  @Aron Thornley   @ColinMac   @TomDowseMarpleSouth 
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Dave on September 04, 2020, 07:51:03 AM
I'm not sure where you are picking up the £30k cost from

It was from the area committee discussion (link earlier in this thread) Not everything that was said was fully audible, but as far as I could tell the proposal was to fund a week of train services from the delegated funding which the four wards of Marple and Werneth have for local priorities. Each ward has £7.5K so that makes £30K maximum available.

That is not made clear on Lisa Smart’s FAQs, but as far as I can tell it seems to be what is planned. To be honest it just seems like a political stunt to me. West Coast Railways is a specialised company which normally operates ‘heritage’ stock on tourist lines for the sake of enthusiasts. If it happens the week after next (and it’s a big if!) it will not be a normal train service and the majority of the few passengers will just be going along for the ride. Is this good use of our money........?
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: andrewbowden on September 04, 2020, 08:19:48 AM
. West Coast Railways is a specialised company which normally operates ‘heritage’ stock on tourist lines for the sake of enthusiasts.

True.  But they also operated a temporary service on the Windermere branch recently, when Northern were in a big meltdown.

They have carriages, staff, and locomotives.  And they are used to operating ad-hoc services, be they be charters or not.

You would also be hard pressed to find an operator who could run this who doesn't do charters.  The main railway companies don't tend to have spare trainsets or drivers they they can use to suddenly spin up a temporary service.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Dave on September 04, 2020, 11:16:13 AM
But they also operated a temporary service on the Windermere branch recently, when Northern were in a big meltdown.

OK, let's get the story straight! The present railway company serving Rose Hill is the government-owned Northern Trains, which took over from the struggling Arriva Rail North earlier this year.  Two years ago, when it was having a major meltdown of its timetables, Arriva suspended services on the Oxenholme to Windermere line. Local MP Tim Farron stepped in and got West Coast Railways to operate the service for two weeks in June 2018.  That was in a tourist area at the height of the tourist season. West Coast ran their vintage trains on the line for two weeks, for which they were paid £80,000 by the government. No fares were charged, and lots of tourists and their kids obliged by coming along for a free ride.

Oxenholme to Windermere is one thing, but Rose Hill to Guide Bridge is quite another!  There is no government funding on offer in this case.   Instead, if you listen to the recording of the recent Marple Area Committee meeting, it seems that the councillors plan to use delegated pots of money allocated to wards.  Apparently each of the four wards in Marple and Werneth has a delegated budget of £7,500, so that adds up to £30K.     Which seems quite credible, seeing as the Oxenholme to Windermere service cost £80K to run for two weeks, operating three return trips per day.  All so that a few trainspotters and their children can have a free ride......   

And the situation is further complicated by the confused and misleading information published in Cllr Smart's FAQs:  https://www.lisasmart.org.uk/rose-hill-faqs.   She refers to the line being closed, but it isn't (if it was then no company would be able to run trains on it). What is happening is Northern Trains are temporarily withdrawing their service.  And then she writes that the West Coast Railway service will 'prove to Northern that it can be done'.  But Northern Trains will be well aware that it 'can be done' - the problem is simply a shortage of drivers because Covid-19 has held up their programme of driver training. 
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: amazon on September 04, 2020, 11:49:24 AM
Stockport Council (that means us). I believe it is expected to cost up to £30,000 to pay West Coast Railways to provide a service from Rose Hill to Guide Bridge for a week. Let’s hope a few people use it........
Money could be better spent somewere else .i thought it was a lack of drivers that was the problem not money .
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: andrewbowden on September 04, 2020, 12:14:54 PM
And the situation is further complicated by the confused and misleading information published in Cllr Smart's FAQs:  https://www.lisasmart.org.uk/rose-hill-faqs.   She refers to the line being closed, but it isn't (if it was then no company would be able to run trains on it). What is happening is Northern Trains are temporarily withdrawing their service.  And then she writes that the West Coast Railway service will 'prove to Northern that it can be done'.  But Northern Trains will be well aware that it 'can be done' - the problem is simply a shortage of drivers because Covid-19 has held up their programme of driver training.

It looks to me that what they're trying to prove can be done, is that an imaginative solution can be found to the problem.

Northern (appear to) have just held up their hands and gone "we can't run trains because we have no drivers!"

Okay.  So you have no drivers.  Fine.  That's an issue.  So what can you do?

What you can do is do what Northern have done and - extremely begrudgingly - put on a handful of buses in replacement.  A very standard answer, although the fact the buses only came in later just is contemptible.

This proposal has looked at it differently and said "how can we keep trains running when Northern haven't got drivers?"  And have come up with an answer of "find someone who has drivers."

And they have found someone.  They have proved it can be done differently.


n.b. I have no idea if Northern also considered this as an option.  It's possible they did and it was shot down by the Department for Transport on cost grounds.  Because when all is said and done, Northern is now just the DfT in disguide.  I also don't know the relative cost of begrudgingly putting on a handful of buses vs the cost of hiring a staffed train, although I would suspect the former is cheaper - especially if they do their normal thing of hiring the worst old bangers they can find.

I also have absolutely no idea if actually running a train is a good idea and whether it will be used.  But it's a solution that has been proposed.  And frankly is a lot more than has come from Northern and the DfT who just seem to have shrugged at the problem.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Melancholyflower on September 05, 2020, 01:07:11 AM
I haven't had time to view the meeting... was anything mentioned about the Pacers and whether there were enough drivers to operate those?

Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: amazon on September 05, 2020, 10:13:12 AM
I haven't had time to view the meeting... was anything mentioned about the Pacers and whether there were enough drivers to operate those?
Nothing to do with trains no Drivers its only a temp suspension till december if drivers become available in the meantime they will bring back the service dont no why people think they are closing the line permantly they are not .
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Dave on September 05, 2020, 11:13:08 AM
I haven't had time to view the meeting... was anything mentioned about the Pacers and whether there were enough drivers to operate those?

AFAIK the Pacers (which were due to be scrapped years ago), are now only in use when coupled with a different kind of train, usually a class 150 'Sprinter'.  I don't think the shortage of trained drivers is specific to any particular type of train - it applies to all their trains.

Regarding the issue of petitions, mentioned earlier in this thread, I think we need to wake up to the fact that 5,500 people signing a petition may not actually mean very much.  I know several people who signed that petition who never use public transport of any kind.  What happens is that someone who feels strongly about an issue asks all their friends to sign a petition, and their friends, being friendly and happy to oblige, duly sign without having the foggiest idea what the issue is really about.   
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Melancholyflower on September 05, 2020, 01:19:49 PM
AFAIK the Pacers (which were due to be scrapped years ago), are now only in use when coupled with a different kind of train, usually a class 150 'Sprinter'.  I don't think the shortage of trained drivers is specific to any particular type of train - it applies to all their trains.

Regarding the issue of petitions, mentioned earlier in this thread, I think we need to wake up to the fact that 5,500 people signing a petition may not actually mean very much.  I know several people who signed that petition who never use public transport of any kind.  What happens is that someone who feels strongly about an issue asks all their friends to sign a petition, and their friends, being friendly and happy to oblige, duly sign without having the foggiest idea what the issue is really about.   

I'm not sure that's entirely fair, it's a pretty simple concept to get your head around. Also, if someone doesn't use public transport for whatever reason they're still quite free to believe that the service should still run for other people. 

But it's true that the numbers are not exactly overwhelming. It doesn't help that there is more than one petition, either.  I haven't been following closely enough, but if it's purely party politics then that's already been counter-productive.

The general idea of running a service is fine, but the fact it will only go to Guide Bridge also seems futile given most people from RH use it to get to Manchester. The bus replacement might even be quicker than waiting for a connection at GB.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Dave on September 05, 2020, 02:44:16 PM
I'm not sure that's entirely fair, it's a pretty simple concept to get your head around

Not simple enough it seems, because many people seem to believe that the station itself is under threat of closure.  This is probably because some of the campaigners use misleading phrases. So one of the campaigns has this website, which clearly implies that the station faces closure: www.saverosehill.co.uk. And take a look at the headline on Cllr Smart’s site: https://www.lisasmart.org.uk/rose-hill-rail. Which is why many people think the station and the line itself are under threat, which is simply not true.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: amazon on September 05, 2020, 04:48:19 PM
Not simple enough it seems, because many people seem to believe that the station itself is under threat of closure.  This is probably because some of the campaigners use misleading phrases. So one of the campaigns has this website, which clearly implies that the station faces closure: www.saverosehill.co.uk. And take a look at the headline on Cllr Smart’s site: https://www.lisasmart.org.uk/rose-hill-rail. Which is why many people think the station and the line itself are under threat, which is simply not true.
Thanks for trying to explain to people dave if people would view the webcast that explains quite a lot if it wasent for covid the trains would be running .
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: marpleexile on September 06, 2020, 09:28:43 AM
Which is why many people think the station and the line itself are under threat, which is simply not true.

Yes and no.

Rose Hill isn't under threat of closure because of this current temporary withdrawal of service.

However, the general feeling in Marple (whether justified or not) is that Rose Hill station is just generally under threat of closure, and many people are seeing this as part of building a case for permanently closing it.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: amazon on September 06, 2020, 02:11:09 PM
Yes and no.

Rose Hill isn't under threat of closure because of this current temporary withdrawal of service.

However, the general feeling in Marple (whether justified or not) is that Rose Hill station is just generally under threat of closure, and many people are seeing this as part of building a case for permanently closing it.
The general feeling from who the lib Dems .
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Condate on September 06, 2020, 05:35:31 PM
I also have absolutely no idea if actually running a train is a good idea and whether it will be used.  But it's a solution that has been proposed.  And frankly is a lot more than has come from Northern and the DfT who just seem to have shrugged at the problem.

As to whether it would be used, I know West Coast Railways has some quite interesting traction. I see they have a couple of operational class 33s and quite a few ex-freight class 37s, along with some class 47s and 57s.  I'd certainly be using the service if the 33s, or 37s were used, as it is a long time since I've been on a class 33 hauled train and then only once. It's a good while since I was hauled by a class 37 and even then it was a 37/4 and WCR are using 37/5. 37/6 and 37/7.

If they operate with class 33 or 37 and mark 1 or early mark 2 coaching stock, I think I'd be spending a good bit of time shuttling back and forth, just for the ride. It would be worth taking some holidays from work to make the most of it.



 
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Dave on September 06, 2020, 05:59:18 PM
So there you go: we could be about to spend  £30K of taxpayers’ money so that Condate can put on his anorak and joyride from Rose Hill to Guide Bridge and back next week. 🙄
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: admin on September 07, 2020, 07:14:40 AM
Parliamentary Debate on Rose Hill Line

I understand that MP William Wragg has secured a Parliamentary Debate - an Adjournment Motion - on Northern’s plan to suspend the Rose Hill Service.

It is scheduled for this Thursday morning, last item on the agenda in the 10.10 - 11.30 session [Update: now expected to be around 5pm.]

It should be possible to watch the debate on Parliament TV or via https://www.parliament.uk/ (https://www.parliament.uk/)

Friends of Rose Hill Station believe it may be of benefit to email William Wragg your comments about how the suspension will impact you personally.

Contact William: https://www.williamwragg.org.uk/contact (https://www.williamwragg.org.uk/contact)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eg17cPhXkAAuHfi?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhTZcX7WsAIB67D?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Dave on September 07, 2020, 09:03:19 AM
That’s great news, and as Northern Trains is government-owned it offers the possibility of an eleventh-hour reprieve. Presumably the rail minister has the power to direct Northern Trains to continue the service. It won’t magically provide sufficient trained drivers, of course, so NT will just have to cut other services. And it makes it even less likely that the Hogwarts Express will be calling at Rose Hill next week. 😏
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: andrewbowden on September 07, 2020, 09:18:50 AM
If we get a reprieve, I'd be absolutely gobsmacked.  We'll just get the standard waffle about Covid challenges, and how they've done the best they can etc etc.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: amazon on September 07, 2020, 10:43:48 AM
That’s great news, and as Northern Trains is government-owned it offers the possibility of an eleventh-hour reprieve. Presumably the rail minister has the power to direct Northern Trains to continue the service. It won’t magically provide sufficient trained drivers, of course, so NT will just have to cut other services. And it makes it even less likely that the Hogwarts Express will be calling at Rose Hill next week. 😏
Was hoping for the FLYING SCOTSMAN .
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Howard on September 07, 2020, 03:00:57 PM
Was hoping for the FLYING SCOTSMAN .

You'll have to wait until they've converted it to run from renewable energy. We're trying not to use coal these days :)
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Melancholyflower on September 07, 2020, 11:47:44 PM
Parliament is actually sitting? 

Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: admin on September 08, 2020, 05:48:24 AM
Rose Hill Line Parliamentary Debate Update

@William Wragg MP has announced via social media that he envisages the debate will start around 5pm on Thursday 10th September.

He will update via Facebook and Twitter with any changes that may occur to the timing.

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wragg4HG/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/William_Wragg
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: admin on September 09, 2020, 07:40:27 AM
A Tweet from Lisa Smart yesterday:
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: admin on September 10, 2020, 11:42:49 AM
The word on the Marple grapevine is that Northern will now be providing some kind of skeleton service on the Rose Hill line rather than their planned suspension of all services.

Will be watching Parliament TV with interest at around 5pm.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: admin on September 10, 2020, 05:55:18 PM
Some services will continue to run on the Rose Hill line after all!

"William Wragg, our local Member of Parliament, has secured concessions from Northern Rail which means that services from Rose Hill-Manchester Piccadilly will not completely grind to a halt on Monday":

https://www.williamwragg.org.uk/news/william-wragg-mp-saves-rose-hill-marple-line-closure

"Labour-led Stockport Council works with government, local MPs and Northern Trains to find last minute solution reinstating two additional services and promising 90-minute service from late October":

https://saverosehill.co.uk/news/stockport-labour-work-cross-party-to-save-rose-hill-services/

Impressed how quickly their web sites were updated!




Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Dave on September 10, 2020, 07:11:19 PM
Good result and a sensible compromise. Well done our MP 👏
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: admin on September 11, 2020, 06:10:46 AM
Here's the time-table from Northern

Quote:
This is the new Rose Hill timetable starting from Monday 14-Sep.
No trains will stop at Fairfield.
NB: There are additional bus services not shown on this poster.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ehlol6bXsAUSbaO?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: amazon on September 11, 2020, 01:29:42 PM
Good result and a sensible compromise. Well done our MP 👏
Yes well done
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: FoRHS142 on September 13, 2020, 01:59:05 PM
Here's the time-table from Northern

Quote:
This is the new Rose Hill timetable starting from Monday 14-Sep.
No trains will stop at Fairfield.
NB: There are additional bus services not shown on this poster, and here are the bus replacement timetables to complete the picture

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ehlol6bXsAUSbaO?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: wheels on September 13, 2020, 07:32:13 PM
I'm hearing that after half term the service will go to a service ever 90 minutes.  Have anyone else seen this?
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: wheels on September 13, 2020, 07:37:29 PM
This recently appeared on one of Andrew GWynne sites.


From the beginning of half-term on 26 October, Northern intends to introduce a temporary 90-minute interval service from Rose Hill to Manchester via Fairfield across the day and ending in the evening.

Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Howard on September 14, 2020, 09:20:24 AM
Some services will continue to run on the Rose Hill line after all!

"William Wragg, our local Member of Parliament, has secured concessions from Northern Rail which means that services from Rose Hill-Manchester Piccadilly will not completely grind to a halt on Monday":

https://www.williamwragg.org.uk/news/william-wragg-mp-saves-rose-hill-marple-line-closure

"Labour-led Stockport Council works with government, local MPs and Northern Trains to find last minute solution reinstating two additional services and promising 90-minute service from late October":

https://saverosehill.co.uk/news/stockport-labour-work-cross-party-to-save-rose-hill-services/

Impressed how quickly their web sites were updated!

Interesting to see WW claiming HE saved the service whereas Stockport Labour talks about working cross-party. Not sure whether it really matters now, but this is the difference between parliamentary and local politics.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Dave on September 14, 2020, 05:45:22 PM
Yes it seems all the politicians are claiming a share of the credit for getting the service partially restored.  And there was certainly a degree of cross-party co-operation  between our MP and Andrew Gwynne, Labour MP for Denton and Reddish, which is good to see.

Howard's second link is interesting for its rubbishing of the extraordinary scheme which the LibDems came up with - the one which proposed blowing £30,000 of our money on what is justifiably described as a week-long vanity project-cum-gimmick'!   Thankfully that has died a natural death!   
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: andrewbowden on September 14, 2020, 07:35:28 PM

Howard's second link is interesting for its rubbishing of the extraordinary scheme which the LibDems came up with - the one which proposed blowing £30,000 of our money on what is justifiably described as a week-long vanity project-cum-gimmick'!   Thankfully that has died a natural death!   

Don't forget that there is an election next year, and the parties most likely to lead the council afterwards are labour or the lib dems.

Frankly I would be therefore amazed if anyone from labour said anything positive about anything the lib Dems had come up with!   ;D
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Dave on September 15, 2020, 03:48:09 PM
I would be therefore amazed if anyone from labour said anything positive about anything the lib Dems had come up with!   ;D.

Point taken. But the LibDems plan was still bonkers!  ;)
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: My login is Henrietta on September 16, 2020, 02:07:00 AM
Not sure whether anyone has picked up on this.

My laptop has been sulking and I haven't been able to get to the library so I spent a considerable time trying to find out who was responsible for the flyers which were around Marple.

Obviously, the person who put the flyers up wasn't aware that not everyone has access to computers. It would have been helpful
if a "land-line" had been included. I'm aware that this is the 21st century but there are still people who don't have access to
computers.

I have only just got mine back from the 'puter hospital and discovered that what I had to say was really too late as the discussion
in the H of P had already taken part. Anyway, I sent it anyway, for what it's worth.

Please when you want to make people to support your cause PLEASE remember that not all people in Marple have access to computers.

Inability to play with a computer doesn't mean disinterest on the part of the rest of the world.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Condate on September 16, 2020, 08:30:15 AM
Note that in other nearby places (including the town my user name represents) have had rather different changes.

https://www.northwichguardian.co.uk/news/18719410.northern-hail-train-timetable-change-beginning-new-normal/?ref=ebln

Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Malcolm Allan on September 18, 2020, 04:25:22 PM
Comments on this site and elsewhere have focused on who should take credit for what is quite a special result. I think we should be focusing on what went right and why this was such a success. People might be interested in some detail on this story. The large part of the credit for all of this should go to 2 groups. Firstly the Friends of Rose Hill station, who instigated the whole campaign. They alerted people and with the tremendous help from the Friends groups at Marple and Romiley, along with the GVRUA, got other people involved, gained the support of influential people and groups, wrote letters, planned campaigns, press and publicity and, crucially marshalled the facts to prove that Northern’s arguments were flawed. This group was also responsible for developing the 90 minutes service solution, with the full detail of a worked up timetable that was ultimately adopted by Northern. The idea came from the combined friends groups, no one else. During the campaign, some groups joined the bandwagon without ever notifying or involving the Friends, some influential individuals failed to deliver on meetings and others wrote to the Friends group to say they’d tried but progress was impossible. Despite this, the Friends never gave up and as a group of volunteers they should be treasured by our community.

No one has highlighted the background that allowed the Marple Area committee to call an extraordinary meeting. This used an arcane part of the council constitution which gave powers to call Northern to account and allowed the Friends groups and local councillors to question them in public - the only time this happened - and reveal their arguments flew in the face of facts and data. This undermined Northern’s approach and skilfully brought in TfGM as experts to discredit Northern for their failure to consider a range of reasonable alternatives. The basis of this meeting came from a part of the Constitution that has never been used before. I know how it was found and how it was developed, and that the council didn’t know how to structure the meeting initially and who advised them how to do it. This meeting ended with admittedly a rather bizarre solution but not without precedent. As a trained professional negotiator in my past I know that if you want to leverage an alternative plan you have to be prepared to carry it through and show that you’ve done the work to do so. At the time of Northern’s U-turn the meeting had used its powers to get council officers engaged with Northern, TfGM and the rail operators to talk about how a plan developed by a small group of amateurs was going to do what Northern couldn’t, despite all their expertise and resources.

In making the U-turn the government Rail Minister was factually incorrect in some of the things he said. He failed to research the correspondence received by his boss Grant Shapps the Transport Minister. This included a letter from 11 local Lib Dem councillors which received a full reply from Grant Shapps. The Rail minister is not the first who has presented incorrect information in justifying a U-turn. He missed other contacts by local councillors too, an error which was maybe more understandable if he didn't understand local structures, but made the depth of his untruths even worse. Those people who have chosen to circulate these false assertions, without checking, have proved the truth of the adage “a lie is halfway around the world before the truth has got its boots on“. This incident has also proved the adage a victory has 1000 parents whereas a defeat is an orphan.

The second group that deserves credit for this success is the people of Marple. Around an eighth of the total population of our town signed the Lib Dem petition but more importantly took the trouble to write to MPs, Ministers, the Manchester Mayor, TfGM and generally register their articulate, reasoned objections. Our community of residents should be proud to have proved that a passionate justified and well-organised campaign can overturn a Government decision. That should be celebrated.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: wheels on September 18, 2020, 05:18:42 PM
Good to see the facts put before us all Malcolm thank you.
Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: My login is Henrietta on September 22, 2020, 12:26:03 PM
so there will be 2 a day.

Does that mean one in AM & one in PM or 2 in the morning and 2 in the evening.

And if the former applies only one evening train and it's organised for adult commuters what happens to those school children  who have to wait a few hours. Will schools be required to make arrangements for pupils to be entertained and kept out of mischief? Not all school children have mothers who drive and have access to a car and are available to deliver and collect their children?

Title: Re: Suspension of train services from Rose Hill
Post by: Dave on September 22, 2020, 01:43:28 PM
Henrietta if you scroll back in this thread you’ll find the temporary timetable in a post by Admin. As you’ll see it’s three trains per day in each direction, plus special buses for the schoolchildren, so as far as Marple Hall is concerned it should work OK.