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Archive => Archived Boards => Local Issues => Topic started by: amazon on February 15, 2020, 03:11:57 PM

Title: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: amazon on February 15, 2020, 03:11:57 PM
Nice article evening news website about Marple bridge
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: amazon on February 15, 2020, 03:42:57 PM
Nice article evening news website about Marple bridge
ITs under the most Beautiful villages .
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: corium on December 18, 2021, 09:24:30 AM
What's coming to MB in May 22? A couple of cryptic signs have appeared roughly outside the dress shop. all there is is a green triangle & half a cloud plus the letter C ( sorry wasn't in a position to take a snap). The Cloud? Connectivity? Calming measures? I'm curious.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: corium on December 18, 2021, 10:28:24 AM
Aha found it on the web - it looks like a clean air zone is coming sign - but given the positioning looks as though it is around one traffic hump!
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Howard on December 18, 2021, 10:34:13 AM
It's the Clean Air Zone which is coming to major cities in May and June. You can see the Manchester map and dates here:
https://cleanairgm.com/clean-air-zone (https://cleanairgm.com/clean-air-zone)

You can check if you'll be charged for your vehicle here:
https://cleanairgm.com/clean-air-zone/discounts-and-exemptions/ (https://cleanairgm.com/clean-air-zone/discounts-and-exemptions/)

It's mostly the oldest and most polluting vehicles that will have to pay the charges.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: admin on December 18, 2021, 11:09:20 AM
It's mostly the oldest and most polluting vehicles that will have to pay the charges.

It doesn't yet cover private vehicles (cars) only vans, taxis, commercial vehicles, HGVs and (frustratingly as an owner) campervans / motorhomes.

It's been out for consultation for months but I'm always amazed at how many people don't know anything about it!
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Condate on December 18, 2021, 11:46:53 AM
It doesn't yet cover private vehicles (cars) only vans, taxis, commercial vehicles, HGVs and (frustratingly as an owner) campervans / motorhomes.

It's been out for consultation for months but I'm always amazed at how many people don't know anything about it!

There was a consultation a long time ago. Since it is such an insane and ill thought out idea, I would have assumed it had been dropped.

It is yet another reason for Marple and preferably Stockport to secede from "Greater Manchester".
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: andrewbowden on December 18, 2021, 02:35:31 PM
There's one of the signs in Disley on Jackson's Edge Lane but it's been put on the wrong side of the road so it looks like it's saying Cheshire is the zone and you are entering it.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: andrewbowden on December 18, 2021, 02:41:16 PM
There was a consultation a long time ago. Since it is such an insane and ill thought out idea, I would have assumed it had been dropped.

It is yet another reason for Marple and preferably Stockport to secede from "Greater Manchester".

Well have I got good news for you.

Firstly Clean Air Zones are a result of central government policy to - GASP - kill less people through air pollution.  I know.  It's mad but apparently Westminster want to stop us killing people through pollution.  Selfish morons. 

Secondly when if by some crazy scheme, Stockport left Greater Manchester, air pollution would still be an issue and we could just end up with a Stockport Clean Air Zone instead.

Me?  I think we should cecede from the United Kingdom and make this the Country of Stockport and enshrine in law the right for motorists to have the most polluting vehicle possible.  Pollution killing people is simply good population control.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Condate on December 18, 2021, 03:17:51 PM
Well have I got good news for you.

Firstly Clean Air Zones are a result of central government policy to - GASP - kill less people through air pollution.  I know.  It's mad but apparently Westminster want to stop us killing people through pollution.  Selfish morons. 


So, it's national government we need to change.


Secondly when if by some crazy scheme, Stockport left Greater Manchester, air pollution would still be an issue and we could just end up with a Stockport Clean Air Zone instead.

Does Marple really have that much pollution?

Both my wife and I have considerable problems with air pollution in some places (although not Marple). It can make us, and particularly my wife, quite ill.  However, we are not so selfish that we want to penalise other people just for our convenience or for our health.  That really would be absurd. We accept that we should suffer, even if it causes major health problems, so as not to cause restrictions for others. That's what normal people do.

Marple should secede from the legal fiction of Greater Manchester anyway, as we have nothing to do with Manchester and want nothing to do with the place.
 
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: andrewbowden on December 18, 2021, 03:49:07 PM
So, it's national government we need to change.

Good luck with that.  Cos I suspect whoever replaces this government (and whenever) will have similar policies.

Quote
Does Marple really have that much pollution?

Irrelevant.  Marple isn't a borough.  And you can wish all you like, but Marple Urban District Council is never coming back.

Quote
Both my wife and I have considerable problems with air pollution in some places (although not Marple). It can make us, and particularly my wife, quite ill.  However, we are not so selfish that we want to penalise other people just for our convenience or for our health.  That really would be absurd. We accept that we should suffer, even if it causes major health problems, so as not to cause restrictions for others. That's what normal people do.

I'm asthmatic.  I'm quite happy to inconvenience people with polluting vehicles if it means I can breathe happily, thanks.  I put my health first above the right of anyone - including myself - to drive a polluting vehicle.  Now I believe there should be support to help people move.  Which is good.  Because there is.

Quote
Marple should secede from the legal fiction of Greater Manchester anyway, as we have nothing to do with Manchester and want nothing to do with the place.

Your regular reminder that no single person on this forum is representative of everyone in the area.

You may think Marple has nothing to do with Manchester.  You may not want anything to do with the place.  But you are ABSOLUTELY NOT "we".  You do not represent everyone.

Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Condate on December 18, 2021, 04:27:47 PM
I'm asthmatic. 

So is my wife. She is not so selfish as to put her health above the general good. Perhaps some people are. I don't think we are going to agree on this one.


Your regular reminder that no single person on this forum is representative of everyone in the area.

You may think Marple has nothing to do with Manchester.  You may not want anything to do with the place.  But you are ABSOLUTELY NOT "we".  You do not represent everyone.

Clearly not everyone, no.  Let's see in 10 years or so the strength of the secessionist movement, not just in Marple, but in all the occupied territories, both of Cheshire and Lancashire. We are obviously not going to agree on this either. Time will tell.


Time will also tell the wisdom or otherwise of the current policy on pollution control. In 10 years or so, it will either be hailed as a great success, or condemned as a catastrophe. We will see.

I haven't seen the result of the consultation. Are they any links to it, with a breakdown of views per area? Obviously I responded to it and it would be interesting to see if yet again, the public's views were ignored, or if people really did think it was a good idea.



Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Dave on December 18, 2021, 05:43:24 PM
It's the Clean Air Zone which is coming to major cities in May and June.

As Howard points put, this is not just a Greater Manchester developmemt - clean air zones are being introduced all over the country, following the one that has existed in London for a few years (ULEZ) and which has recently been expanded to cover the whole area inside the North and South Circular roads. 

The exceptional feature of the Greater Manchester scheme, however, is that it covers the entire GM area - all ten metropoitan boroughs.   Other cities seem to be introducing the zones in much smaller areas in and around their centres, where there is a real issue about harmful levels of NO2 in the atmosphere.  Here's the Birmingham map, for example:  https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/info/20076/pollution/1763/a_clean_air_zone_for_birmingham/3

..... and here's the Bristol map:  https://bristol.citizenspace.com/growth-regeneration/traffic-clean-air-zone/

But if you look at the GM map (https://cleanairgm.com/clean-air-zone-map/) you can see the sections of road where there is an issue about a concentration of NO2, and there are none in or around Marple apart from a very short stretch of Stockport Road near Seventeen Windows.

I have no objection to such restrictions being introduced where they are necessary, but it appears that Greater Manchester is going far beyond what is actually necessary.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Cyberman on December 18, 2021, 06:47:58 PM
My concern with all this is what happens when the restrictions are applied to private cars. Comparing with the London zone it seems only electric cars are exempt. I could be wrong here but my car which is a hybrid is not exempt. Good luck with fitting all the terraced housing of Marple with charging points.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: andrewbowden on December 18, 2021, 07:00:38 PM
Let's see in 10 years or so the strength of the secessionist movement, not just in Marple, but in all the occupied territories, both of Cheshire and Lancashire. We are obviously not going to agree on this either. Time will tell.

Why ten years?  Marple became part of Greater Manchester in 1974.  That's 47 years.  That's longer than I have been alive.  If in 47 years there has been no great uprising against the Mancunian Oppressors, I am baffled as to why there would be one 57 years after the event. 

Marple isn't going to change.  No one cares enough.  Government policy is based around simplifying local government structures.  It's going to be like this for a long time. 


Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on December 18, 2021, 07:20:56 PM
Andrew what would you like us to do to show our dislike of being lumped with Greater Manchester ?.

Would you like free Marple flags hung on the many surrounding bridges or some form of peasants uprising ?.

Pitchfork protest around Costa or Dominos ?.

Or a slow boat down the canal impeding canal boaters like they do on the M25 ?.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Condate on December 18, 2021, 07:28:44 PM
Why ten years?  Marple became part of Greater Manchester in 1974.  That's 47 years.  That's longer than I have been alive.  If in 47 years there has been no great uprising against the Mancunian Oppressors, I am baffled as to why there would be one 57 years after the event. 

Marple isn't going to change.  No one cares enough.  Government policy is based around simplifying local government structures.  It's going to be like this for a long time.

Ah well. At least there is Wikishire to remind us of the pre 1936 borders.

https://wikishire.co.uk/wiki/Marple

https://wikishire.co.uk/map/#/centre=53.401,-2.057/zoom=14


I'd still be interested to know the results of the consultation though. I'd be particularly interested in the difference in response between the centre and the periphery.  I would expect it to be considerable.

I could understand the centre supporting the idea, but not the outlying areas.  There does seem to be a determination to extend the restrictions well beyond what might be considered a reasonable area.



Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Howard on December 19, 2021, 11:18:57 PM
I can smell the gammon from here.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Belly on December 20, 2021, 05:18:49 PM
Since when does legislation (local or national) seeking to encourage people away from driving polluting vehicles not represent 'the general good'?

What is this obsession with being able to drive a private vehicle anywhere you want regardless of the consequences? Its like some form of collective madness! Whilst I recognise that the 'freedom' that cars can offer the individual is a fantatsic luxury, the road deaths, pollution and sheer amount of public space that they such vehicles take up, is hard to continue to justify without control.

In terms of the pollution zones, has it ever occured to you that a high proportion of the traffic in such zones is probaly generated by supposedly less polluting zones - I'm sure, for example, that people in offerton & bredbiry are grateful for the honour of breathing in the particulates emitted from Marple resident's vehicles. But hey, we are alright jack.

Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on December 20, 2021, 05:46:09 PM
Whilst this isn't an exact response, how is scrapping or being forced to replace a commercial vehicle built before 2016 helping the environment ?.

It's not as one would at first assume, removing old smoke belching vehicles as emissions have been regulated and part of your MOT for decades.

And being forced to replace your vehicle just shifts the problem, as they'll just sell your car abroad.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Andy on December 21, 2021, 02:34:30 PM
@GM it depends on which problem you are trying to fix.

You would reduce local NO2 levels by scrapping and moving to electric vehicles but this wouldn't necessarily have a net positive effect on global CO2.

Somewhere in amongst all the nonsense on the subject I posed a question about a Tesla and my Dads ancient Defender. The Defender by one measure is an eco friendly vehicle. (Embedded carbon) but the Tesla is eco friendly on another measure. One is much safer for driver and pedestrians in an accident.

I'd rather have a stack of Tesla's on Lower Fold as we walk to school rather than defenders, but the production of that many cars (unless net zero like VW) wouldn't in and of itself have a positive impact on climate change.

There is absolutely no evidence to support the status quo though.

Andy
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on December 21, 2021, 04:31:39 PM
Whilst I'm not a denier of man made carbon emissions, the phrase "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch" always rings true.

Personally I think we need to restart nuclear power to provide a base load power grid, as the more renewable you add the greater the base load is required to prevent rolling blackouts.

Move to seawater hydrogen using excess wind power at night, as they shut them down when it's too windy.

Burning huge quantities of natural gas to produce electricity just adds to the co2 and knowing the debacle that is Drax using wood imported from America is just a taxpayer funded waste as they don't include the co2 from shipping it half way across the globe.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: nbt on December 23, 2021, 10:29:29 AM
@GM
I'd rather have a stack of Tesla's on Lower Fold as we walk to school r

I'd rather more people walked their children to school, a large part of the issue is the sheer number of vehicles on the road. We need fewer cars, not newer cars
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on December 23, 2021, 12:37:55 PM
Maybe I'm showing my age nbt, but practically everyone I went to primary and secondary school with walked unless they were from outside of Marple & Marple bridge regardless of the weather.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Condate on December 23, 2021, 12:54:37 PM
Maybe I'm showing my age nbt, but practically everyone I went to primary and secondary school with walked unless they were from outside of Marple & Marple bridge regardless of the weather.

When I went to primary school, most either walked, or like me, got the bus and walked from the bus terminus.

For secondary school, it was a walk to the station, a fourteen mile train journey , followed by a two mile bus or walk. 
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on December 23, 2021, 01:00:08 PM
Are we going to start going down a four Yorkshire men skit ?
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: andrewbowden on December 23, 2021, 02:29:44 PM
Okay, so I went to primary school in the early 1980s.  I lived just over a mile from my school.  Sometimes we walked.  Sometimes we got the bus (which for some reason only ran in the afternoon - couldn't get it in the morning.)  Sometimes we got the car.  From about nine I sometimes did it without parents.

Here's the thing.  There's differences now between the 1980s when I went to primary school and the now that my children live in.

1) that school bus I used to get no longer runs.  I didn't grow up in Marple, but for children doing the journey I had to do, they either walk or they get a car.  There's no public transport option for them.  None.

2) there were a LOT less cars.  My parents still live in the same house on the same estate.  There used to be loads of space for children to play in the road.  And children did.  You couldn't do that now.  It's impossible.  Many houses on that street have three cars. There's cars going up and down it all the time.  That's not just that estate.  That's everywhere.  There's cars everywhere.  That's not just schools.  That's everyone.  We had one car in our house growing up.  That's why the street was quiet.  It's not like that now.

3) there's decreasing consideration of pedestrians by sine drivers.  Before anyone starts shrieking at me in outrage, go stand at the Coop petrol station on a school day.  You'll see cars go through red lights.  You'll see cars zooming through when the green man is lit saying its safe to cross.  I use that crossing 10 times a week.  And it's a rare week I don't see some driver doing something they shouldn't be.  It felt a lot safer as a child to be out and about when I was growing up in the 1980s than it does when I take my children to school.  Should be said, most drivers round are good and considerate.  But all by any means.

4) my mum didn't work when I was at primary school.  Many mums didn't.  Let's not beat around the bush here - this is a major difference between society in the early 1980s and now.  Now it's quite normal for both parents to be working.  And where do they work?  If they don't work in Marple, then they've got to travel.  And they'll have to travel in rush hour, dropping the kids off at school on the way.  And if they have to drive to work, they're going to drive the children to school.  It's obvious.


Before we all sit here with our misty eyed rose tinted glasses, it's worth thinking about the different world we live in from when we grew up. A world where more children end up in cars to school because the public transport doesn't support them well.  Because there's far more cars on the road and parents don't feel confident letting their children cross busy roads safely.  Because there's some absolute arseholes in cars creating dangerous conditions.  Because both parents are working and don't necessarily work locally, and don't necessarily have the time or ability to walk their children to school.



Incidentally my children do walk to school.  Well they scoot, I walk.  I take them every morning.  Four days a week they travel back on foot/scooter.  The fifth they go to swimming lessons.  Going swimming now needs a car now that we no longer have a swimming pool in Marple (thus creating more traffic) and the buses and trains are timed in such a way that makes it impossible to get to Romiley in time for their lessons.  And I see a LOT of children travelling on foot.  On scooters.  On bikes. 
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Graham on December 23, 2021, 03:11:49 PM
Well said and very accurate I feel, I was at primary school in the early 1960s if we saw a car when walking to school it would have been either the Doctor the Vicar or the Undertaker and we knew the sound of each before looking.


Okay, so I went to primary school in the early 1980s.  I lived just over a mile from my school.  Sometimes we walked.  Sometimes we got the bus (which for some reason only ran in the afternoon - couldn't get it in the morning.)  Sometimes we got the car.  From about nine I sometimes did it without parents.

Here's the thing.  There's differences now between the 1980s when I went to primary school and the now that my children live in.

1) that school bus I used to get no longer runs.  I didn't grow up in Marple, but for children doing the journey I had to do, they either walk or they get a car.  There's no public transport option for them.  None.

2) there were a LOT less cars.  My parents still live in the same house on the same estate.  There used to be loads of space for children to play in the road.  And children did.  You couldn't do that now.  It's impossible.  Many houses on that street have three cars. There's cars going up and down it all the time.  That's not just that estate.  That's everywhere.  There's cars everywhere.  That's not just schools.  That's everyone.  We had one car in our house growing up.  That's why the street was quiet.  It's not like that now.

3) there's decreasing consideration of pedestrians by sine drivers.  Before anyone starts shrieking at me in outrage, go stand at the Coop petrol station on a school day.  You'll see cars go through red lights.  You'll see cars zooming through when the green man is lit saying its safe to cross.  I use that crossing 10 times a week.  And it's a rare week I don't see some driver doing something they shouldn't be.  It felt a lot safer as a child to be out and about when I was growing up in the 1980s than it does when I take my children to school.  Should be said, most drivers round are good and considerate.  But all by any means.

4) my mum didn't work when I was at primary school.  Many mums didn't.  Let's not beat around the bush here - this is a major difference between society in the early 1980s and now.  Now it's quite normal for both parents to be working.  And where do they work?  If they don't work in Marple, then they've got to travel.  And they'll have to travel in rush hour, dropping the kids off at school on the way.  And if they have to drive to work, they're going to drive the children to school.  It's obvious.


Before we all sit here with our misty eyed rose tinted glasses, it's worth thinking about the different world we live in from when we grew up. A world where more children end up in cars to school because the public transport doesn't support them well.  Because there's far more cars on the road and parents don't feel confident letting their children cross busy roads safely.  Because there's some absolute arseholes in cars creating dangerous conditions.  Because both parents are working and don't necessarily work locally, and don't necessarily have the time or ability to walk their children to school.



Incidentally my children do walk to school.  Well they scoot, I walk.  I take them every morning.  Four days a week they travel back on foot/scooter.  The fifth they go to swimming lessons.  Going swimming now needs a car now that we no longer have a swimming pool in Marple (thus creating more traffic) and the buses and trains are timed in such a way that makes it impossible to get to Romiley in time for their lessons.  And I see a LOT of children travelling on foot.  On scooters.  On bikes.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Deniseredmini on December 23, 2021, 07:26:24 PM
Small things also help.

I walk past St Mary's school every weekday. The number of parents that sit in their cars on their phones and with their engines running is appalling.  This despite the campaign rum by the school children to ask parents not to have their engines idling. 
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: corium on January 06, 2022, 02:07:33 PM
I see there is some hesitation about introducing the clean air zone:

https://cleanairgm.com/news/greater-manchester-clean-air-zone-statement/

It may be exactly as stated...or is it that the erection of the sign I originally saw has, like me, woken people up to what is about to happen? Not that I'm directly affected.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: andrewbowden on January 06, 2022, 02:29:59 PM
Whilst there has been a LOT of noise about this recently, is the noise going to do anything long term?  Somehow I doubt it.

The reasons for the Clean Air Zone are related to pollution levels, and the introduction of measures are being mandated by central government.  The ten Greater Manchester councils have been told to do something.  They're legally forced to do something.  The Clean Air Zone is what they're doing. 

They have two options:
1) ignore the legal requirement imposed on them
2) implement something.

That's the reality.

They may tinker the scheme a little.  They may be able to find a few extra pounds to help the affected people (although given local government budgets, good luck with that) but short of their being a massive reduction in air pollution across the borough of Stockport, Stockport's still going to be legally required to do something.  Same as every other council in Greater Manchester. 

Don't want it?  Don't like it?  No good moaning at Andy Burnham.  You need to get Westminster to ditch the requirement to act.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: jimblob on January 06, 2022, 02:49:59 PM
Andy Burnham was interviewed on the news today about this, stating...
"We are committed to reducing air pollution in Greater Manchester but also to protecting the jobs and livelihoods of our residents. We are listening carefully to concerns being expressed about the current situation and will make a decision shortly on our next steps".

As to the idea that simply charging people will clean the air is a little naive in my opinion, it will remove some polluting vehicles from the roads for sure but only by putting some small businesses and sole traders out of business. Similarly, the cost of the administrative burden and technology to support this is not best use of available funds. Usual approach for change, cripple the existing options before viable or affordable alternatives are available.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: andrewbowden on January 06, 2022, 02:59:28 PM
As to the idea that simply charging people will clean the air is a little naive in my opinion, it will remove some polluting vehicles from the roads for sure but only by putting some small businesses and sole traders out of business. Similarly, the cost of the administrative burden and technology to support this is not best use of available funds. Usual approach for change, cripple the existing options before viable or affordable alternatives are available.

The obvious answer would be to invest massively in public transport and to have extensive schemes to help business owners change their fleet and upgrade their vehicles whilst at the same implementing a scheme like this.  Carrot and stick at the same time. 

Unfortunately that requires an element of joined up thinking.  And a LOT more money.  The current Tory government seems to lack joined up thinking, and really doesn't want to spend money on, well, anything.  So there we are.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on January 06, 2022, 03:10:23 PM
Yeah Andrew, whilst at the same time that labour guy is happy to charge anyone in a 40 mile radius!.

Whilst quietly glossing over the gargantuan amount of pollution created by Manchester airport, isn't that still partly owned or atleast creating a huge dividends every year ?.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: andrewbowden on January 06, 2022, 03:29:19 PM
Yeah Andrew, whilst at the same time that labour guy is happy to charge anyone in a 40 mile radius!.

Well let's think about alternatives.

Each of the 10 councils has been told to do a Clean Air Zone.  So one solution is each council does its own thing.  Is that better or worst? 

What about if we just put the Clean Air Zones in pollution hotspots?  So people don't drive through the hotspots.  Great, pollution in hotspots decreases.  But it pushes it elsewhere, and creates new hotspots.  So we have a Clean Air Zone that moves regularly as hotspots move.

I'm sure there's more options.  And every one has a benefit or a drawback.  I can imagine the outcry if we had separate schemes for Stockport and for Tameside and for Trafford and for Manchester would be even bigger than what is going on now. 

It's easy to criticise.  It's very hard to find solutions that please everyone.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: admin on January 06, 2022, 04:32:12 PM
I was interested to see that @William Wragg MP has shared a letter signed by himself and several other NW MP's today.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: admin on January 06, 2022, 04:45:41 PM
And these have been shared by Mr Burnham today too in a joint statement:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIargI0XwAE7iJt?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIariHNX0AIc24E?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIariJlXwAAmLlC?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIarjfCWUAIgXoe?format=jpg&name=medium)

Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on January 06, 2022, 04:47:09 PM
Well having looked at the clean air map, i don't think you can even reliably make such a wide sweeping decision on effectively 21 data locations based primarily at junctions across a 493 square mile area.

Personally speaking the current VED system is perfectly adequate, if you wanted to tweek the pricing structure that would be my starting point.

And at the same time not excluding making Tesla owners actually pay, just because they're pollution is remote does not let them off Scott free.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Condate on January 06, 2022, 05:15:48 PM
Don't want it?  Don't like it?  No good moaning at Andy Burnham.  You need to get Westminster to ditch the requirement to act.

It is true that the real problem is insane requirements by Westminster and that does need to be addressed and the people responsible removed from office as soon as possible by the electorate.

Nevertheless, when faced with nonsensical requirements, what is required is to do the minimum required by law, while urging the government to change that law.

Why come up with such an ill thought out scheme which is only going to cause major damage to the area? Who knows? It seems completely insane to have a policy which applies to such a large and very diverse area and I can only assume it comes from an attitude that the weird notion of Greater Manchester needs to be pushed at all costs.

What might come out of it eventually is a realisation by the people of the area that it is time to put an end to the ludicrous idea of having a mayor of Greater Manchester. That can't come too soon. I don't care who the mayor is; we should not have one and the post needs to be abolished.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on January 06, 2022, 06:18:30 PM
Definitely agree on the removal of mayors and all the wasted money. And the same with PCC, it's done nothing except drive up council taxes.

Bit like sadiq and his 1 million spend on public relations.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: jimblob on January 07, 2022, 10:19:51 AM
Well having looked at the clean air map, i don't think you can even reliably make such a wide sweeping decision on effectively 21 data locations based primarily at junctions across a 493 square mile area.

Personally speaking the current VED system is perfectly adequate, if you wanted to tweek the pricing structure that would be my starting point.

And at the same time not excluding making Tesla owners actually pay, just because they're pollution is remote does not let them off Scott free.
looking at https://cleanairgm.com/data-hub/diffusion-tubes and pulling some data for analysis, out of a network of 400 passive diffusion tubes, only TWO, yes two, identify as not meeting targets, Tameside 55 and Wigan 180. there is no problem to fix!
areas that show higher levels are generally as a result of queueing traffic... so let's build more cycle lanes or install speed humps and restrict the traffic even further so we can up the pollution levels and justify charging folks for our poor air quality!
let's try and scare the bejeesus out of folk so they don't mind paying...

Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Belly on January 08, 2022, 02:53:42 PM
looking at https://cleanairgm.com/data-hub/diffusion-tubes and pulling some data for analysis, out of a network of 400 passive diffusion tubes, only TWO, yes two, identify as not meeting targets, Tameside 55 and Wigan 180. there is no problem to fix!

That's because, thanks to Covid, traffic levels at these locations have all dropped by a substantial level - look at all of the monitoring graphs for a wide range of locations all over GM. This means that a huge amount of locations that were above target levels are currently below - but we all know that this is temporary.

So what do we learn from that. Fewer vehicle trips = better air quality. Can't think why they are looking to implement a clean air initiative that focuses on vehicle trips? 
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on January 08, 2022, 09:32:18 PM
Well the Marple sensor, ie the one we as a website I would hope, would be interested in shows little change pre covid.

It’s around the 29 mark, which the limit they set was 40.
Having looked at a number of the results and ignoring the covid years, they all show a marked reduction without Andy’s let’s wring the motorists yet again scheme!.

You can’t blame covid for everything and I include the council using such excuses for saying leisure centres, library’s have seen a reduction in usage. It’s a bit like proclaiming we’ve not been buying travel money as much either!.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Belly on January 09, 2022, 12:11:58 AM
Well the Marple sensor, ie the one we as a website I would hope, would be interested in shows little change pre covid.

It’s around the 29 mark, which the limit they set was 40.
Having looked at a number of the results and ignoring the covid years, they all show a marked reduction without Andy’s let’s wring the motorists yet again scheme!.

You can’t blame covid for everything and I include the council using such excuses for saying leisure centres, library’s have seen a reduction in usage. It’s a bit like proclaiming we’ve not been buying travel money as much either!.

Of course we can blame covid for a huge reduction in car journeys in 2019 and 2020 - its an absolute proven fact. Indeed, so much so that in my job I'm not allowed to freely use traffic data collected during these key times, due to concerns with it being unrepresentative of what precdeded the pandemic. Its a nonsense to suggest otherwise.

So what if Marple is below the threshold for potentially harmful air quality - lucky us, we thankfully live in a relatively quiet suburb / town, on the edge of the green lung of the Peak District. But we don't just drive our cars around Marple, we do like to travel further afield, be it to work, shop, leisure, etc. So unlucky Hazel Grove, Bredbury, Offerton etc and large parts of the rest of GM, where our cars often pass through, and where AQ has been an issue for years, until the pandemic cut vehicle movements (for the moment).

There are actually very few monitoring stations in Stockport that provide long term data, but if we look at two that are on routes that are likley to accept significant quantities of Marple derived traffic (e.g. A6 and A626), this shows that: on the A6 through Hazel Grove, one of the AQ stations (site 7) has shown values above theshold all through the 2010's up until 2019 / 2020, whereupon it dropped by 40+% - can anyone think why? At the station at the end of A626 Offerton Road / Marple Rd just before the Stockport inner relief road, there appears to be only data for the last 2 years. This shows AQ levels at close to threshold in 2019 which would have been impacted by the pandemic and a drop in 2020. Who know's where levels were before 2019 and covid, but it would be a good guess that they were higher, based on data from other sites.

I'm not saying the current ULEZ scheme is the answer, but vehicle emission related AQ issues are definitely real in GM and it doesn't help the debate to pretend that recorded values in the last 2 years are in any way representative of typical traffic levels and that there isn't a problem, just because Marple is 'ok'.

Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on January 09, 2022, 10:20:55 AM
As per jimblob, there are only two that failed the 40 limit across the whole of greater Manchester!.

So by your brilliant deduction, you should punish the whole population just because you can't wait to get more concrete evidence to justify any scheme!.

By the same token you could blame the high readings at site 7 as a direct result of the construction of the bypass, having sat in the residual mess of roadworks in poynton getting to the bypass that wouldn't be a long stretch of the imagination.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Belly on January 09, 2022, 12:59:02 PM
What on earth are you going on about?

As I've pointed out, 2019 / 2020 AQ and traffic information is unrepresentative of everything that went before the Pandemic. Because traffic levels during the last 2 years were artificially low due to Covid. Thats why all of the AQ monitoring stations are showing lower levels for 2020. Thats just a matter of fact. Argue with it if you want, but you just look foolish.

AQ station 7 is located right in the middle of Hazel Grove town centre on the N-S A6 corridor - why would that be affected by construction of an E-W link road 2 or 3 miles away? 

Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on January 09, 2022, 05:13:14 PM
How can I look foolish, when I've ignored the last two years data on purpose that COVID has reduced vehicle usage!.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Howard on January 09, 2022, 05:59:10 PM
I'm with you @Belly

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the concept of "the polluter pays" is the right one. The air quality of our towns and cities is a matter for everyone. There really should be a calculation for the carbon footprint and pollution index of a vehicle which includes manufacturing, operation and recycling as well as per mile pricing depending on occupancy and weight. That's what the vehicle operator would pay for.

Unfortunately we're a long way off that and it's likely to be too intrusive for the public to buy into that. Until we get there, blunt instruments like the ULEZ are the only current answer.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: jimblob on January 10, 2022, 09:23:30 AM
And all the while, NoX emissions from vehicles is falling (despite there being more of them),
Euro standard   Date   NOx
Euro 3           January 2001           0.5
Euro 4           January 2006           0.25
Euro 5a           September 2011   0.18
Euro 6           September 2015   0.08
Since 2015, a Euro6 diesel produces less than a 5th of the NoX as a Euro3 and around half of that of  Euro5A from 2011. The number of vehicles hasn't increased by the same levels and therefore over time, the situation will ammeliorate. It's almost that the clock is ticking and governement have to get this new taxation introduced before the older vehicles all go to the scrapper and the case for ULEZ is gone. Rest assured, even if we were to all move to electric vehicles, you'll be taxed on those at some point!
You can chose a statistic to back any argument it seems.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Cyberman on January 10, 2022, 11:41:16 AM
And all the while, NoX emissions from vehicles is falling (despite there being more of them),
A very interesting point - but to counteract this vehicles are getting bigger:
https://www.iea.org/commentaries/global-suv-sales-set-another-record-in-2021-setting-back-efforts-to-reduce-emissions (https://www.iea.org/commentaries/global-suv-sales-set-another-record-in-2021-setting-back-efforts-to-reduce-emissions)
This refers to CO2 emissions, but NoX will follow the trend.

One of my (numerous) complaints against this government is that recent changes in vehicle tax have greatly reduced the incentive to buy small, economical (and therefore low emission) vehicles. Unless you buy electric your yearly tax is much the same whatever the size of the vehicle. On my road, nearly every new vehicle that's appeared is a bl**dy huge SUV, mostly used for conveying a small child to and from school.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: andrewbowden on January 10, 2022, 12:06:47 PM
One of my (numerous) complaints against this government is that recent changes in vehicle tax have greatly reduced the incentive to buy small, economical (and therefore low emission) vehicles. Unless you buy electric your yearly tax is much the same whatever the size of the vehicle. On my road, nearly every new vehicle that's appeared is a bl**dy huge SUV, mostly used for conveying a small child to and from school.

Many of the things that look like SUVs will be MPVs.  SUVs have 4 wheel drive, whilst an MPV doesn't.  Stylistically MPVs look quite similar to SUVs.  And as an owner of an MPV, I got one for multiple reasons including that MPVs have good amounts of space inside, which is useful for holidays and travel.  Or just putting a buggy in.  They also make life much easier when it comes to child car seats which - to be blunt - are massive.  My parents have a standard estate car and have car seats of their own for the children, and had to give up on one of them because it was too big for the back of their car.  It was unusable.  In our MPV we can actually fit three child seats on the back row - an impossibility with most smaller cars.

Now my children are getting older and one of them doesn't need a car seat any more.  By the time we replace our car, we may not need the size of an MPV day to day.  But I understand why people have them because I have one. 

I look at pictures of my parents car from the 1980s.  It's tiny in comparison.  But we didn't need child seats.  And the Vauxhall Chevette we had wouldn't survive as well in a crash as my modern MPV...

(P.S. my children walk to school so you don't need to worry there.)
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: jimblob on January 10, 2022, 12:48:49 PM
On my road, nearly every new vehicle that's appeared is a bl**dy huge SUV, mostly used for conveying a small child to and from school.
something of a sweeping generalisation perhaps???
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Dave on January 14, 2022, 12:44:00 PM
There seems to have been a new development in this matter. See https://cleanairgm.com/news/statement-from-eamonn-boylan-chief-executive-of-greater-manchester-combined/

So the GMC is seeking to ‘pause’ the introduction of clean air zones, and it is hoped that more funding might be extracted from the government (good luck with that 🙄).  No doubt there is also an element of delay because of the backlash to the GM scheme, which unlike those in other cities, is not confined to the city centre where there is a real problem with high levels of Nitrous Oxide, but is to be imposed throughout the entire GM area, including places like Marple where there is no serious issue with excess NO2.  Let’s hope the ‘pause’ leads to a bit of common sense.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Cyberman on January 15, 2022, 12:34:15 PM
I look at pictures of my parents car from the 1980s.  It's tiny in comparison.  But we didn't need child seats.  And the Vauxhall Chevette we had wouldn't survive as well in a crash as my modern MPV...
A Vauxhall Chevette..  Luxury. We made do with a HA Viva. I take your point about MPVs and crossovers - they can give the space necessary nowadays for a family. But the new cars in our road are proper 4x4's - we have a Range Rover, a Merc and a Volvo. Their size makes the parking problem on our road even worse, because they don't fit on the narrow drives. Their poor aerodynamics, chunky tyres and 4WD make them thirsty.  And one at least is at the moment mostly used for the school run, where it probably sits in a queue for most of the time. Their owners seem to think the size of car reflects status, but to me it reflects something else. Perhaps the increasing cost of fuel will make folks change their buying habits and choose less polluting, less resource-hungry vehicles.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Dave on January 15, 2022, 04:02:39 PM
Their owners seem to think the size of car reflects status, but to me it reflects something else.

And what’s that, Cyberman?
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Cyberman on January 16, 2022, 04:47:59 PM
And what’s that, Cyberman?
Selfishness, basically.

Excessive contribution of emissions of CO2, NO2 and particulates (hence my mentioning it in this thread) - due to their large mass, inefficient 4WD transmissions and poor aerodynamics. Quote from the BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56647128 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56647128) "A study by the International Energy Agency said increasing demand for SUVs is the second biggest contributor to the growth in carbon emissions" (and therefore probably other pollutants).

Excessive use of energy and material resources in their manufacture. Larger bodies, tyres, engines...

Excessive contribution to pollution from tyre and brake dust.

Increased risk of severe injury to other road users, pedestrians and cyclists when struck by these vehicles as compared with smaller vehicles with lower bonnet height.

Disproportionate use of road space when parked. This causes problems in roadside parking in areas such as where I live, where most parking is on-road and parking space is at a premium. Also in car parks where these vehicles are often too large for the parking bays.

I accept that some owners need this type of vehicle to drive in snow and along muddy tracks and poorly surfaced roads (speed humps don't count). But I don't think they should be the vehicle of choice for commuting in Greater Manchester.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: tigerman on January 16, 2022, 07:59:28 PM
There's a lovely animation called "Over The Hedge" that came out some years ago. The small creatures in the film see a 4WD heading towards them on the road. "Wow," says the squirrel "Look at the size of that car! How many can they get inside that thing? His friend answers " Normally?- just the one!" 
Just about sums it up!
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Dave on February 03, 2022, 08:47:59 AM
So the ridiculous 500 square mile GM clean air zone came up at Prime Ministers Questions yesterday. See https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-60233153.amp

I don’t think I’ve ever agreed with Johnson before……… 😳
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: andrewbowden on February 03, 2022, 09:55:36 AM
So the ridiculous 500 square mile GM clean air zone came up at Prime Ministers Questions yesterday. See https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-60233153.amp

I don’t think I’ve ever agreed with Johnson before……… 😳

And yet the reason the ten Greater Manchester councils are being forced to introduce this scheme is because it's the law set by the government in Westminster.  A government headed by Johnson. 

Still, he'll say anything if he thinks it's what people want to hear.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on February 03, 2022, 10:15:48 AM
Whilst it might be a government scheme, it is to be implemented by 2024 not by May this year.

Which could have allowed manchester to phase in the system, starting with busses as they have already been encouraged by additional funding to retrofit exhaust systems.

This would have had the advantage of giving actual real world data showing if it did achieve there aim of improving ait quality in the very miniscule areas where it was exceeded, two places wasn't it ?
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Dave on February 03, 2022, 10:56:48 AM
And yet the reason the ten Greater Manchester councils are being forced to introduce this scheme is because it's the law set by the government in Westminster.

I don't think that's entirely correct. Yes, the government is requiring cities to introduce clean air zones, and for good reasons, IMHO. What they are not requiring is that our zone - unlike all the others - should cover ten local authorities and an entire 500-square mile area, including rural and semi-rural areas such as ours.   It's ridiculous. 
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: andrewbowden on February 03, 2022, 02:05:00 PM
I don't think that's entirely correct. Yes, the government is requiring cities to introduce clean air zones, and for good reasons, IMHO. What they are not requiring is that our zone - unlike all the others - should cover ten local authorities and an entire 500-square mile area, including rural and semi-rural areas such as ours.   It's ridiculous.

1) every council has been told to do something.  All ten.  Not one.  Ten. I repeat - because it's important - ALL TEN COUNCILS HAVE BEEN TOLD TO DO SOMETHING.  You can argue whether every council should have been told to do that until you are blue in the teeth.  You may have a point.  But they have been told. The law set by Westminster said "DO IT".  This isn't Andy Burnham going "ha ha lets make van owners suffer."  This is a response to all ten councils being told to do something. All ten councils that form Greater Manchester.

2) for some reason, the councils thought it better to do one single scheme rather than ten individual ones.  Can't imagine why...  Having ten separate schemes would be far better, wouldn't it?

3) as soon as you start only including some areas, you drive traffic elsewhere.  You move the pollution.  So the boundaries have to change.  Let's picture what would happen if the A6 through High Lane was in the zone, but Marple town wasn't.  What do you think would happen to the traffic on the A6?  would all of it stay on the A6, or would some of it divert through Marple and Strines to avoid the charge?  That's one close to home example.  How many examples like that would be in the borough of Stockport alone.

Repeat after me: It's absolutely ridiculously easy to criticise.  It's far harder to actually come up with solutions that suit everyone.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on February 03, 2022, 05:16:36 PM
Well the "Do something", would be to look at those locations that failed the emission level.

How many failed that ?.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Dave on February 03, 2022, 05:56:35 PM
Bath:  https://beta.bathnes.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Bath%20Clean%20Air%20Zone%20map.pdf
every council has been told to do something. 

Correct. And here are some of the clean air 'somethings' that other places have chosen to implement:

Bath:  https://beta.bathnes.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Bath%20Clean%20Air%20Zone%20map.pdf

Birmingham: https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/info/20076/pollution/1763/a_clean_air_zone_for_birmingham/3

Portsmouth: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-53360366

Bradford:  https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/18650037.mixed-response-plans-clean-air-zone-bradford/

What do those schemes have in common?  They are small, maybe two or three square miles each, and focussed in the centres of the cities, where the problem of excess NOx emissions actually exists.  They do not cover 500 square miles of land including many places where there is no problem. 
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: corium on February 04, 2022, 09:18:54 AM
Not that  listen to every last word on BBC News & Radio 4 so may have missed something but where I have heard this issue being discussed over the last 2/3 days the reports all seem to be under the impression the GM scheme is a city centre scheme like the others, not GM wide.

M
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: admin on February 04, 2022, 11:08:53 AM
What do those schemes have in common?  They are small, maybe two or three square miles each, and focussed in the centres of the cities, where the problem of excess NOx emissions actually exists.  They do not cover 500 square miles of land including many places where there is no problem.

Absolutely, there are several ring-roads around the city and they could have chosen any one of these, even inside the M60 would have made more sense than what they have come up with.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on February 04, 2022, 11:54:53 AM
Probably because Burnham has visions of being like Sadiq but ended up more along the lines of the Sheriff of Nottingham.

I'll let you choose which of the many iterations, probably more the BBC version with Keith Allen
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Dave on February 04, 2022, 02:39:01 PM
The latest development seems to be this:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-60245387.amp

So Andy Burnham now say the CAZ is temporary, and will be removed ‘as soon as we achieve compliance with clean air limits’.

As we are already compliant in Marple then that is surely an admission, in effect, that it should not be imposed here at all. 
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on February 04, 2022, 03:46:38 PM
Whilst some movement is welcome, nothing has been bagreed to other than more empty promises.

Even the article says they've offered the cameras to GMP for ANPR usage.

Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Dave on February 05, 2022, 12:48:29 PM
Yet another new development- this time a postponement: see https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/04/greater-manchester-clean-air-zone-rollout-delayed-until-summer

Let’s hope that as well as delaying the introduction of the scheme, those responsible will come to their senses and design a scheme which only applies to city and town centres, like every other such scheme in the country. 
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: andrewbowden on February 05, 2022, 01:29:31 PM
Bath:  https://beta.bathnes.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Bath%20Clean%20Air%20Zone%20map.pdf
Correct. And here are some of the clean air 'somethings' that other places have chosen to implement:

Bath:  https://beta.bathnes.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Bath%20Clean%20Air%20Zone%20map.pdf

Birmingham: https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/info/20076/pollution/1763/a_clean_air_zone_for_birmingham/3

Portsmouth: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-53360366

Bradford:  https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/18650037.mixed-response-plans-clean-air-zone-bradford/

What do those schemes have in common?  They are small, maybe two or three square miles each, and focussed in the centres of the cities, where the problem of excess NOx emissions actually exists.  They do not cover 500 square miles of land including many places where there is no problem.

I will tell you what else those schemes have in common.  They cover the area controlled by one council.  Not ten councils that make up a whole county. 

But let's run with it.  Okay so we have small targeted schemes.

Except as I will point out until I am blue in the face because I am not sure people are getting this... Stockport has to have one.  Rochdale has to has to have one. Tameside has to have one.  Wigan has to have one.  And so on.  They have to because all ten councils have been told to do something.  If just Manchester had been told to do something, that's easy.  We have a small scheme in the City Centre.  But all ten councils in a county have been told to do something.  A scheme in Manchester City Centre does little for Rochdale and Wigan's requirements.

So we have ten small schemes.  Yeah?  Okay.  Fine.  So you travel between Stockport and Ashton and you have to deal with Stockport's scheme and you have to deal with Tameside's scheme.

What do you want?  Ten small schemes or a joined up one? 


And yes it's been paused.  But not scrapped.  And it's telling that the message from the Environment Secretary, given in today's Guardian, says simply:

"In making this decision, the environment secretary has made it clear that it is his priority to fulfil the government’s legal obligations to deliver compliance with NO2 limits in the shortest time possible.”
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/04/greater-manchester-clean-air-zone-rollout-delayed-until-summer

Tweaks may be in their way, but it doesn't look like the government are in any hurry to lift the legal requirement to implement something.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: andrewbowden on February 05, 2022, 01:39:49 PM
Or to put it a different way...

If all the legal requirements could have been met by simply putting a charging zone around Manchester City Centre, don't you think that's what they would have done from the outset?
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on February 05, 2022, 01:50:36 PM
Do you really think Burnham and his delusions of grandeur would have stopped there, your kidding yourself.

From what I've heard in the transport industry they were pushing for it to include all SK postcodes which includes the rather remote Buxton in their plans!
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Dave on February 05, 2022, 04:15:49 PM
Yes it's a tricky issue, as andrew has forcefully pointed out several times in this thread  ::).  But as far as I am aware, no other urban area in the country is tackling it in the way that we are in GM. 

In London, the ULEZ zone is defined by the north and south circular roads.  Here it is:  https://lruc.content.tfl.gov.uk/ulez-boundary-map-main.pdf

Now anyone who knows London knows that outside the zone lie vast areas of densely populated urban area with heavy traffic, innumerable HGVs, and levels of NO2 at least as high as those in our town and city centres here in GM.   But the ULEZ does not even cover those, let alone extend out into the outer suburbs and countryside, as ours does.

It may be that waiting to study what other comparable extended urban areas do, when their turn comes, might help GM to find a solution.  In the Black Country, for example, currently Wolverhampton, Walsall, Sandwell and Dudley etc are not implementing CAZs, but presumably they will sooner or later, and it will be interesting to see how they tackle it. 
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Condate on February 05, 2022, 04:33:10 PM
What do you want?  Ten small schemes or a joined up one? 

The ideal would be to scrap the requirement and there needs to be a campaign to do just that. It is insane to require ten independent and very different areas to implement something and I assume it is part of a plan to try and impose a false Greater Manchester identity on the ten councils.

However, if there must be something, then ten schemes are better, as each area is, or ought to be, completely independent of the others. Perhaps some coordination, but with each council having the final say. If they have any sense, each council would do the absolute minimum required.  The more each council asserts its independence, the better it is in this and all other matters.

Since I drive a car and would not be directly affected by the existing plan does not mean I would not be affected at all. The unemployment and economic desolation which would result from the scheme affects everyone.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Belly on February 05, 2022, 06:40:11 PM
“The unemployment and economic desolation which would result from the scheme affects everyone.”

Really? That isn’t just being a touch over-dramatic?

So, do we just carry on doing nothing then?

This cannot be an issue where the only answer is ‘no’.

What is the alternative proposal that we can all get on board with?



 
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on February 05, 2022, 07:02:25 PM
Well Belly, if you get bored why not read the 2018 "Greater Manchester Annual Status Report 2018".

I'll summarise it briefly, all monitoring sites have seen a reduction since 2016 including No2, PM2.5 etc.

3 sites exceeded NO2 in 2018.

1. Salford M60
2. Manchester Oxford Road
3. Tameside Mottram Moor.

What's the obvious thing among all 3, traffic jams.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Belly on February 05, 2022, 08:30:16 PM
Ok. You’ve convinced me that the estimated 1,100+ deaths per year in GM attributable to man made air pollution is no biggie.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on February 05, 2022, 08:58:31 PM
Cleanairgm use the word contribute.

Claiming 1100+ people a year die through air pollution is just hysterical hyperbole.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on February 06, 2022, 01:42:54 PM
I would however say the following article does paint a slightly better picture of the scary headline and a pretty balanced report.

Which is not actual deaths but a possibility of increased risk, so no actual deaths!.

https://wintoncentre.maths.cam.ac.uk/news/does-air-pollution-kill-40000-people-each-year-uk/
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Dave on February 06, 2022, 02:09:10 PM
Interesting paper - thanks GM.  So to paraphrase it, this report concludes that excess NO2 has a marginal detrimental effect on life expectancy, mainly for those with pre-existing medical conditions, heavy smokers etc, but it points out that NO2 and other pollution in cities has been falling for decades, and that this is therefore 'not what we would usually think of as a crisis.'  However, the paper points out that 'it can still be good to seek improvements in air quality, but only provided these are based on a careful analysis of the costs per life-year saved.'

So given the marginal benefits to be gained, is it really justifiable to impose these additional costs on minicab drivers and self employed plumbers, electricians etc in an area like Marple which does not have high levels of NO2, at a time when we are all facing significant price rises, increases in interest rates, and increased NI contributions.   The 'cost per life year saved' would surely be excessive. 
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: GM on February 06, 2022, 02:56:00 PM
A pretty good summary.

The solution has primarily been implemented by those with the largest emissions such as busses and hgv, they are predominantly used the most in comparison to trades people who might go from job to job but they are not clocking up the miles and hours like hgv's and busses.

You could also say something similar for diesel electric trains as they have something like a 19 litre diesel engine that's only tier 3 Vs the average tier 5 for most diesel road vehicles.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: jimblob on February 07, 2022, 08:30:18 AM
Ok. You’ve convinced me that the estimated 1,100+ deaths per year in GM attributable to man made air pollution is no biggie.
the stats are that there are 1100+preamature deaths to which air pollution potentially contributes! that's a whole world away from air pollution killing them.
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: Dave on June 01, 2022, 04:28:30 PM
So after wasting God knows how much time and money on a gigantic clean air zone scheme covering 500 square miles of Greater Manchester, it now looks likely that we will end up doing the same as everywhere else, i.e. introducing a city centre scheme.  See https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-61659406
Title: Re: Clean Air Zone in Marple and Marple Bridge
Post by: wheels on June 01, 2022, 07:33:30 PM
Well I would have liked to have seen a much wider scheme than the new proposal. A huge lorry coming up Station Rd to deliver at ASDA should still in my view be subject to some sort of penalty be it via a CAZ or in some other way.