Marple Community Forum & Noticeboard

Local Community => Local Issues => Local Elections (May 2021) and Council Matters => Topic started by: Carolyn Leather on April 20, 2018, 04:51:03 PM

Title: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: Carolyn Leather on April 20, 2018, 04:51:03 PM
Stockport Green Party councillors (if there are any) will be voting against development of the A6-M60 bypass.  In summary, significant parts of the Goyt and Poise Brook Valleys will be irrevocably destroyed.  Traffic in our area will actually increase overtime as people become dependent upon cars.  This will exacerbate air pollution, climate change and will exacerbate the obesity epidemic.  I believe we need to invest in public transport, and safe cycling and walking paths instead of building yet another road which will devastate green spaces.  The cost of this road is estimated at half a billion pounds.  In these very trying economic times, this money could be put to so much better use. 

This website is a useful resource for those wanting to find out more:

https://stockportbypassfacts.com/

I'd like to know where my opponents stand on this issue please.

@Steve Gribbon
@Kevin Dowling
@ChrisGleeson

Hannah Sneddon, Conservative candidate does not appear to be on this forum. 

Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: ringi on April 20, 2018, 05:04:59 PM
Could the other candidates please say if they would vote for the bypass, and what they would do to limit the impact on Dan Bank.

(Personly I don't see another option, as public transport will never work for people who need to travel round Manchester to a place of work.   But I am all for better public transport, including a useful bus to Stepping Hill.  And I would welcome road charging to reduce car usage.)
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: GeoffAbell on April 21, 2018, 09:41:16 AM
Interesting comment re charging @ringi   Have you seen this short TED talks video about that issue?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX_Krxq5eUI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX_Krxq5eUI)

And I know this is a little off-topic, but SMBC have installed a limited number of free electric-car charging points.  (Including one near the snooker club opposite the town hall on Edward St)  Do we want to see more?

Sorry @Carolyn Leather - candidates opinions on the bypass.....
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: Steve Gribbon on April 21, 2018, 11:55:52 AM
Could the other candidates please say if they would vote for the bypass, and what they would do to limit the impact on Dan Bank.

(Personly I don't see another option, as public transport will never work for people who need to travel round Manchester to a place of work.   But I am all for better public transport, including a useful bus to Stepping Hill.  And I would welcome road charging to reduce car usage.)

Good morning Ringi

On a personal level I agree about the public transport system needing an upgrade and any positive improvements can pay for themselves in the way of more usage. I attended the Rail users group forum in Romiley a couple of Months ago and there was no mention of a link between Marple and Stockport which amazes me, when a question was asked about this the rail official confirmed it was not even being looked at but could not explain why. Since then I have been in contact with Transport for Greater Manchester (TGFM) with a request for a reason this is not being looked into, I also put forward a suggestion of using the Reddish North line which may be declined but in my opinion we have to look at ways of getting public transport improved and protecting our environment.

If the road is going to be successful it would have to be with as little impact on the environment as possible, simply removing green areas for it to be forgotten about in time is to me just not good enough. Our road structure does need upgrading to deal with modern demands but we have to be very careful not to destroy what we have around us. Before casting a vote I would want to see that every avenue is looked into to ensure if it does take place then it will be of huge benefit for us. If this was not the case then I believe options would have to be reviewed.

Kind regards

Steve Gribbon 
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: Razzle24 on April 21, 2018, 12:32:18 PM
Steve - can you please answer the question - what is the stance from the Libdems - are they for or against the bypass.
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: Steve Gribbon on April 21, 2018, 12:48:07 PM
Steve - can you please answer the question - what is the stance from the Libdems - are they for or against the bypass.

Hi Razzle

To answer your question, the Lib Dems are broadly in favour of the bypass however the consultation on the 2nd stage needs to happen to make sure everyone has their say in the matter.

I hope this clarifies the situation for you.

Kind regards

Steve Gribbon
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: amazon on April 21, 2018, 03:13:26 PM
Could the other candidates please say if they would vote for the bypass, and what they would do to limit the impact on Dan Bank.

(Personly I don't see another option, as public transport will never work for people who need to travel round Manchester to a place of work.   But I am all for better public transport, including a useful bus to Stepping Hill.  And I would welcome road charging to reduce car usage.)
Were do you want a bus to steping hill from .
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: Kevin Dowling on April 21, 2018, 04:20:50 PM
I was on the M25 in the late 80s (the exact date eludes me and I'm not goggling) when this road opened. It was originally announced as a  '... Technological Breakthrough that would resolve the traffic congestion around London...' It wasn't long before the contemporaneous song-writer Chris Rea was denouncing it as  '... The Road To Hell...' 

Since then, I have never seen an additional road that didn't fill up with vehicular traffic almost instantly. It's a bit of a paradox really, as these roads are supposed to ease traffic congestion but very quickly they augment it.  None of them work, they just attract more combustion-engine cars, the by-product which in turn bring their own problems.

Then there is the irretrievable, environmental vandalism that is inflicted upon the area.

Then there is the total lack of wit and imagination that is a symptom of the ready acceptance of these schemes. When every time we look at them retrospectively and say grudgingly to ourselves...' Surely we could have thought of something better for that amount of money...'

So no Carolyn, I do not support another road to hell.   

     
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: Will L on April 21, 2018, 11:19:56 PM
Personally I'm in favor.

The train link likely will never be restored to Stockport and as for Buses, well we'll see what Burnham will do over the next few years.

Personally I'd rather introduce a congestion charge into Manchester itself and direct those funds toward improving trains, buses and trams but the Mayor has already rejected that possibility sadly and I suspect unless he changes his mind he'll be mayor until at least 2025 so we might as well crack on with improving the roads.

As time goes on more electric cars will enter the roads as well, and hopefully a more aggressive target than 2040 put into place for the banning of petrol cars.
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: Dave on April 22, 2018, 11:03:15 AM
I also put forward a suggestion of using the Reddish North line which may be declined

I think Steve may mean the Reddish South line - that's the one that links Stockport with Guide Bridge and has one train per week! It crosses the Marple - Piccadilly line at Reddish Vale, between Brinnington and Reddish North stations, and could provide a rail link between  Marple, Romiley and Stockport, through the construction of a short curve joining our line with the Guide Bridge line.

That would link Marple with Stockport with a journey time of around 20 minutes, even though it is a somewhat roundabout route. I am puzzled as to why it is not being taken more seriously by the planners, as it appears to be the only way we will ever have a rail link to Stockport.

Re the A6- M60 bypass, it really is a no-brainer, as anyone who uses Torkington Road, Dooley Lane or Bents Lane must know to their cost. Those three roads, as we all know, are a virtually permanent crawl, with huge amount of medium and long distance traffic funnelling in from Hazel Grove to join the motorway, and we need to get that traffic off those roads so that they are released for us locals to use.

This is a very important local issue, and the contibutions here from Carolyn, Steve and Kevin have been very helpful in enabling voters to make up our minds.
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: JohnBates on April 23, 2018, 07:24:55 PM
The Conservatives are in favour of the A6 M60 link (subject to business case and full assessment)

"Local conservatives have long called for improvements to our local roads infrastructure, and especially the urgent the need for a link road between the M60 at Bredbury and the A6 at Hazel Grove, about which our MP William Wragg introduced a debate in Parliament shortly before the election.

Proposals for the A6-M60 link road are currently part of the South East Manchester Multi-Modal Strategy (SEMMMS) refresh, along with other elements of Stockport's current and future transport priorities.

William Wragg MP for the Hazel Grove constituency, and local councillors will be making the case to ensure that there is no deviation from the need for the A6-M60 Hazel Grove to Bredbury bypass, which has been talked about for decades, but has never been delivered. In addition, in order to reduce congestion and protect the environment, we must do more than just build new roads. We need to get people out of cars and onto good alternative public transport. Therefore the SEMMM Strategy refresh will also provide an opportunity to push for a Metrolink extension to Marple, connecting Marple, Romiley and Bredbury to Stockport and then further afield along the existing Metrolink network. It is also important to push for Stockport to be the hub of a Tram/Train Metrolink network to the Airport and Tameside as well."

see www.hazelgroveconservatives.org.uk/campaigns/a6-m60-bypass
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: Steve Gribbon on April 23, 2018, 07:36:09 PM
I think Steve may mean the Reddish South line - that's the one that links Stockport with Guide Bridge and has one train per week! It crosses the Marple - Piccadilly line at Reddish Vale, between Brinnington and Reddish North stations, and could provide a rail link between  Marple, Romiley and Stockport, through the construction of a short curve joining our line with the Guide Bridge line.

That would link Marple with Stockport with a journey time of around 20 minutes, even though it is a somewhat roundabout route. I am puzzled as to why it is not being taken more seriously by the planners, as it appears to be the only way we will ever have a rail link to Stockport.


Many thanks Dave I think you may be right there, I called it Reddish North as how I see it R North will be the 1st station that is arrived at if a link could be created. When/if I get my reply to TFGM I will make sure I have my lines 100% correct! I really do think this is worth pushing for, it would help traffic congestion, the environment and local economy both in Stockport and where we live. I will report back when I receive a reply.

I appreciate your help on this, thanks again.

Kind regards

Steve Gribbon
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: ringi on April 23, 2018, 10:41:09 PM
Were do you want a bus to steping hill from .

From Marple, going along Dan Bank then taking a DIRECT way to Stepping Hill with a minimal of stops.  At present the bus is VERY slow as to goes rounds lots of back roads, hence everyone I know who works at Stepping Hill drives to work.
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: ringi on April 23, 2018, 10:46:40 PM
Interesting comment re charging @ringi   
And I know this is a little off-topic, but SMBC have installed a limited number of free electric-car charging points.  (Including one near the snooker club opposite the town hall on Edward St)  Do we want to see more?

I think these chargings points are of no benefits.     Firstly ALL taxi and minicabs should be required to be 100% electric within two years.   Then we need a requirement that all new homes have charging for electric-cars along with all employer-provided parking.    As for council provided chargers, there should have been at least 50 in the new Car Park, as unless someone can depend on getting a space with a charger, it is of no benefit in getting people to switch to EV.

A quick win would be to provide free access to the short-term Parking (and drop of) at the Airport to all EVs.
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: ringi on April 23, 2018, 10:51:13 PM
I think Steve may mean the Reddish South line - that's the one that links Stockport with Guide Bridge and has one train per week! It crosses the Marple - Piccadilly line at Reddish Vale, between Brinnington and Reddish North stations, and could provide a rail link between  Marple, Romiley and Stockport, through the construction of a short curve joining our line with the Guide Bridge line.

That would link Marple with Stockport with a journey time of around 20 minutes, even though it is a somewhat roundabout route. I am puzzled as to why it is not being taken more seriously by the planners, as it appears to be the only way we will ever have a rail link to Stockport.

I see little point with a rail link to Stockport, as I see no point in going into Stockport.....   Most people who commute to work by car would not be helped by it.   I would much rather the  money be spent on having trains every 15 minutes into Manchester, along with a better bus network, and bus lanes all along the A6.

(There is no space on the rails system for more trains between Stockport and Manchester, therefore a new service from Marple to Stockport would have to terminate at Stockport.)
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: Carolyn Leather on April 23, 2018, 10:56:03 PM
@ringi An efficient bus service to Stepping Hill is something that I would certainly press for if elected.  Car parking at the hospital appears to be getting far more difficult each time we go.  I talked to staff in the clinic about this and they confirmed they were getting more and more complaints all the time about parking issues.

A direct bus service would encourage people to leave their cars at home, which in turn would free up parking spaces for those who need to drive.

Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: andrewbowden on April 23, 2018, 11:10:50 PM
I see little point with a rail link to Stockport, as I see no point in going into Stockport.....   Most people who commute to work by car would not be helped by it.   I would much rather the  money be spent on having trains every 15 minutes into Manchester, along with a better bus network, and bus lanes all along the A6.

(There is no space on the rails system for more trains between Stockport and Manchester, therefore a new service from Marple to Stockport would have to terminate at Stockport.)

Enough people board the 383 and 384 buses in rush hour to suggest there's a demand for services going to Stockport.  You may not want to go there, but some do.  I go there regularly to catch trains or go swimming myself.  The Stockport Exchange complex around the station is introducing more high quality office space in that area over the next few years.

Anyway, in 2015 Stockport Council published it's rail strategy.  You can read it online
http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansblog/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Stockport-Rail-Strategy-January-2015.pdf

Train-tram running Manchester - Bredbury - Marple was their big local item, taking over the railway line and replacing with Metrolink.  Such a proposal would give a 12 minute service assuming the standard Metrolink service patterns are applied.  Longer term they stated there should be a rail link between Stockport and Marple as well.  Maybe that could be an extension of the train tram.

The problem with train trams is that - despite the fact they happily get used across the world - the Department for Transport's insisted on doing a trial in Sheffield that's had cost and delivery issues due to complexity.  A trial with Metrolink would have been easier due to differences in design.  But hey, that's central government for you.  It's almost like they want it to fail...
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: ringi on April 23, 2018, 11:13:45 PM
@ringi An efficient bus service to Stepping Hill is something that I would certainly press for if elected.  Car parking at the hospital appears to be getting far more difficult each time we go.  I talked to staff in the clinic about this and they confirmed they were getting more and more complaints all the time about parking issues.

A direct bus service would encourage people to leave their cars at home, which in turn would free up parking spaces for those who need to drive.

One option would be a direct FAST bus service to the park and ride site, as I expect there will be a fast bus to the airport from their once the new road opens.   Hence having a bus going there from Marple would help both people getting to Stepping Hill and people getting to the Airport.
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: Carolyn Leather on April 23, 2018, 11:58:22 PM
Yes, that would certainly be a good option.

(I've just checked the bus timetable and it takes almost an hour by bus to get to Stepping Hill from Marple.  Google maps says it takes 12 mins by car.)

Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: andrewbowden on April 24, 2018, 07:01:33 AM
Yes, that would certainly be a good option.

(I've just checked the bus timetable and it takes almost an hour by bus to get to Stepping Hill from Marple.  Google maps says it takes 12 mins by car.)

Marple has two services to Stepping Hill.

The 394 does it in 25 minutes.  Bit longer than the car as it goes via High Lane so less direct.  the 394 runs every two hours, Monday to Friday. 

The 375 runs hourly and does the journey in 45 minutes because it goes round the houses.  It runs Monday to Saturday.

Times for both are from Navigation Hotel but both services also call at Marple Bridge. 
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: GeoffAbell on April 24, 2018, 11:27:21 AM
If we want people to get out of their car, we do have to provide a good alternative.  Rail is ideal as roads can get clogged through no fault of the operator.  @ringi - there are train paths from Stockport - Manchester but I agree it'd be tight.  @andrewbowden - full conversion to Metrolink is a bit Marple-centrist - there are also Hope Valley trains and freight trains to consider.  As you say dual running does work in the rest of Europe, especially NL and Germany.   

Stockport's "offer" has been poor, but is improving with Red Rock and Foodie Friday being two recent changes.  When I go to the town hall, cycling is about 30 mins, and I leave 60 mins for buses (in case one is cancelled / late, especially in rush hour).  Cars typically take 20 mins in busy periods but parking is poor.

Parking also poor in Marple.  Cons are suggesting 30 mins free parking, which is laudable.  Until you ask, where is the financial shortfall going to be made up from, when Con government is starving local authorities?  (Remember the big recent debate about station car parks)  And Marple car parks are already full.  Are we building more?

In conclusion, cars are definitely not the answer to all transport problems, especially in crowded urban areas.
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: Carolyn Leather on April 24, 2018, 11:38:06 AM
The annual bluebell walk through the threatened Goyt and Poise Valleys is on 6th May.  People are meeting at 2.15pm outside Bredbury Hall.  Please come along and see what we risk allowing to be destroyed.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=925556440947471&id=544896215680164
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: amazon on April 24, 2018, 11:47:35 AM
The annual bluebell walk through the threatened Goyt and Poise Valleys is on 6th May.  People are meeting at 2.15pm outside Bredbury Hall.  Please come along and see what we risk allowing to be destroyed.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=925556440947471&id=544896215680164
Blue bells before an  esential road ...   
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: amazon on April 24, 2018, 11:50:59 AM
Yes, that would certainly be a good option.

(I've just checked the bus timetable and it takes almost an hour by bus to get to Stepping Hill from Marple.  Google maps says it takes 12 mins by car.)
Then the prob is no ware to park when you get there
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: andrewbowden on April 24, 2018, 11:55:42 AM
If we want people to get out of their car, we do have to provide a good alternative.  Rail is ideal as roads can get clogged through no fault of the operator.  @ringi - there are train paths from Stockport - Manchester but I agree it'd be tight.  @andrewbowden - full conversion to Metrolink is a bit Marple-centrist - there are also Hope Valley trains and freight trains to consider.  As you say dual running does work in the rest of Europe, especially NL and Germany.   

You're right Geoff, full conversion to Metrolink wouldn't work - as it stands.  Indeed one thing I wasn't clear about what that the Stockport Council strategy document said Marple - Bredbury - Manchester for a train tram, but by Marple it meant Rose Hill (this is clarified in the appendix.)   I lazily copied that without making that clear :)

That would make things easier as essentially the Manchester-Sheffield stopping trains that call at Marple would (presumably) get re-routed via Hyde taking over the existing paths used by the Rose Hill trains.  There are a pretty small number of freight trains that go through line through Bredbury (I see two in each direction running today) and such services would also probably have to be re-routed through Hyde in order not to impact a Metrolink style frequency. 

Doing so would mean that the stretch from Romiley to Belle Vue could be pretty much dedicated to Metrolink. And then it would need some approach to Manchester to join the rest of the Metrolink network at Piccadilly.

A fully isolated network would be ideal.  But tram-train could be done.

Saus Andrew, the armchair public transport network planner ;)
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: Carolyn Leather on April 24, 2018, 12:05:02 PM
@amazon

Yes, exactly.  It took 30 mins for me to park a few weeks ago and that was with a blue badge holder on board.  I'm sure it took longer than 12 mins to drive there as well. 

Taking the bus needs to be made a much more attractive option - faster route, more frequent service etc so that those who must drive can park when they get there.

Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: ringi on April 24, 2018, 12:28:39 PM
Enough people board the 383 and 384 buses in rush hour to suggest there's a demand for services going to Stockport. 

But how many of these people are going all the way from Marple to Stockport?    Also if a train service removes some of the bus users, will there be enough people still using the bus to keep the service going.   

If we are not careful, we get a train once an hour (or even once every two hours) and a much-reduced bus service.   (Clearly, if a tram service was introduced from Stockport station to Didsbury etc, then a link to Stockport station will make a lot more sense.)

Overall I much rather the money be spent on improving the current bus service making it more dependable and having a better service at night and on Sundays etc.     Think of what a radical option like bus lanes all along the A6 combined with a busway from Marple to the A6 could do......

Remember that is costs about the same to run a train every 2hr then to run buses every 20 minutes!
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: amazon on April 24, 2018, 01:07:33 PM
But how many of these people are going all the way from Marple to Stockport?    Also if a train service removes some of the bus users, will there be enough people still using the bus to keep the service going.   

If we are not careful, we get a train once an hour (or even once every two hours) and a much-reduced bus service.   (Clearly, if a tram service was introduced from Stockport station to Didsbury etc, then a link to Stockport station will make a lot more sense.)

Overall I much rather the money be spent on improving the current bus service making it more dependable and having a better service at night and on Sundays etc.     Think of what a radical option like bus lanes all along the A6 combined with a busway from Marple to the A6 could do......

Remember that is costs about the same to run a train every 2hr then to run buses every 20 minutes!
So how do yo improve the current bus sevice and which bus service do you mean .bus lanes no chance no room
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: ringi on April 24, 2018, 01:39:07 PM
So how do yo improve the current bus sevice and which bus service do you mean .bus lanes no chance no room

There is space for bus lanes on both sides of the A6 all the way into Stockport, it just needs a willingness to stand up to car drivers.    (It's a real shame that the 2nd half of the new road is so delayed, otherwise they could have been put in with the road opening.)   Enforce the bus line with cameras on the front of each bus, set so they only activate if a bus is going at under 25 mph, this allows car drivers to use the bus line to get past cars turning right etc, provided they don't slow down a bus.

Then a busway would need building from Marple to the A6, maybe next to the old railway line, this would not be cheap, but without it, buses will always be slow.
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: amazon on April 24, 2018, 02:41:19 PM
There is space for bus lanes on both sides of the A6 all the way into Stockport, it just needs a willingness to stand up to car drivers.    (It's a real shame that the 2nd half of the new road is so delayed, otherwise they could have been put in with the road opening.)   Enforce the bus line with cameras on the front of each bus, set so they only activate if a bus is going at under 25 mph, this allows car drivers to use the bus line to get past cars turning right etc, provided they don't slow down a bus.

Then a busway would need building from Marple to the A6, maybe next to the old railway line, this would not be cheap, but without it, buses will always be slow.
You did not say how you improve the bus service and which bus service
Title: Re: A6-M60 bypass
Post by: Dave on April 24, 2018, 07:15:01 PM
I see little point with a rail link to Stockport, as I see no point in going into Stockport.....

Maybe, but lots of people do, That's why the roads are so congested.

Most people who commute to work by car would not be helped by it.

OK, but many would, and would jump at the chance to avoid the dreaded Offerton crawl every morning and evening.  And then there are those who drive to Stockport to catch a train to London or elsewhere, who would be able to take a train from Marple or Romiley and cross the platform at Stockport to join their main line train.


There is no space on the rails system for more trains between Stockport and Manchester, therefore a new service from Marple to Stockport would have to terminate at Stockport.

Of course it would - no problem. We've already got trains to Manchester.

Meanwhile Carolyn writes:

@amazon
Taking the bus needs to be made a much more attractive option - faster route, more frequent service etc

Faster route = reducing traffic = building the new road. Bluebells are lovely but there are plenty of those!