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Archive => Archived Boards => Local Issues => Topic started by: corium on August 12, 2014, 05:35:32 PM
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Off peak fares being restricted further from September
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-28761038
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Does anyone know how this effects the concessionary rail pass?
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The Northern Rail franchise is to be renewed in the the near future. Northern Rail already dump the country's grottiest rolling stock on us (other than the cattle trucks used as trams in Manchester). If Northern Rail can't make a profit out the hugely congested and highly subsidised trains in Greater Manchester surely it is time for a different company to operate the franchise (or even better for the renationalisation of Britain's railways).
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The Northern Rail franchise is to be renewed in the the near future. Northern Rail already dump the country's grottiest rolling stock on us (other than the cattle trucks used as trams in Manchester). If Northern Rail can't make a profit out the hugely congested and highly subsidised trains in Greater Manchester surely it is time for a different company to operate the franchise (or even better for the renationalisation of Britain's railways).
Renationalisation is an ideological folly. the rail service has improved since privatisation, demand for travel is up as services have improved. The unions are almost impotent and commuters no longer have the lottery of industrial action to deal with.
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Leaving aside how bad any one particular private company is and Northern Rail is dreadful lets not get sentimental about British Rail, dirty trains, late trains rude and unpleasant staff,, porters who expected a tip. There was nothing good about BR although I do accept that the railways are of strategic national importance and therefore need greater state intervention but not day to day management.
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Leaving aside how bad any one particular private company is and Northern Rail is dreadful lets not get sentimental about British Rail, dirty trains, late trains rude and unpleasant staff,, porters who expected a tip.
Don't generalise about the staff. The face of Rose Hill station is Tony and a more polite, courteous and helpful member of staff couldn't be found! It would make no difference if he wore a Northern, an Arriva, a Virgin or a British RaIl uniform. The dark days of snotty British Railways staff who expected a tip for carrying out a job for which they receive a wage are long past thank goodness. I have elderly relatives with limited mobility who are regularly transported across Euston by buggy and have their luggage carried from their carriage down a long platform at Euston all the way down the escalators and then down a few flights of stairs (no lifts) to the depths of the Northern Line who do this job quite cheerfully and who would consider you to be some kind of a pervert if you suddenly tried to place money in their hands. Try doing the same as the staff and think like someone living in the twenty first century.
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Don't generalise about the staff. The face of Rose Hill station is Tony and a more polite, courteous and helpful member of staff couldn't be found! It would make no difference if he wore a Northern, an Arriva, a Virgin or a British RaIl uniform. The dark days of snotty British Railways staff who expected a tip for carrying out a job for which they receive a wage are long past thank goodness. I have elderly relatives with limited mobility who are regularly transported across Euston by buggy and have their luggage carried from their carriage down a long platform at Euston all the way down the escalators and then down a few flights of stairs (no lifts) to the depths of the Northern Line who do this job quite cheerfully and who would consider you to be some kind of a pervert if you suddenly tried to place money in their hands. Try doing the same as the staff and think like someone living in the twenty first century.
That's the point Mr Rambler. The privatisation has changed attitudes and the service has improved accordingly. Nationalisation is a step backwards where the old attitudes will slowly come back and we'll have a service at 1970's standards, we'll be forced to drive Morris Marinas and our working day will be warming our hands on a brazier throwing stones at anyone who dares to work a full shift.
Going forward, the answer to our line at Marple may be to allow the franchise to operate a Metrolink service which gets us away from the congestion of picadilly and increasing the number of services and the current slow route to Sheffield can operate from Marple or New Mills.
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Don't generalise about the staff. The face of Rose Hill station is Tony and a more polite, courteous and helpful member of staff couldn't be found! It would make no difference if he wore a Northern, an Arriva, a Virgin or a British RaIl uniform. The dark days of snotty British Railways staff who expected a tip for carrying out a job for which they receive a wage are long past thank goodness. I have elderly relatives with limited mobility who are regularly transported across Euston by buggy and have their luggage carried from their carriage down a long platform at Euston all the way down the escalators and then down a few flights of stairs (no lifts) to the depths of the Northern Line who do this job quite cheerfully and who would consider you to be some kind of a pervert if you suddenly tried to place money in their hands. Try doing the same as the staff and think like someone living in the twenty first century.
You seem to be confused that is exactly the point I was making.
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Re the original point, it's always seemed a bit of an anomaly that off peak fares were only restricted on the outbound leg but you could travel on the peak time trains in the afternoon. Having a one and a half hour peak time in the afternoon at peak commuter time seems ok to me to be honest.
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Re the original point, it's always seemed a bit of an anomaly that off peak fares were only restricted on the outbound leg but you could travel on the peak time trains in the afternoon. Having a one and a half hour peak time in the afternoon at peak commuter time seems ok to me to be honest.
It's two and a half hours not one and a half and leave people stuck until 6.30pm. Equally it brings us into line with the rest of the country.
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Equally it brings us into line with the rest of the country.
No, it brings us into line with parts of the country e.g. Milton Keynes - Manchester is off peak, ditto Brighton to Hastings (both journeys I've done recently). Big issue in this house will be whether to take the train or drive the car into Manchester for evening events
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Equally it brings us into line with the rest of the country.
Not quite, in the London area the evening peak time only effects trains leaving London, those traveling into London are still off peak.
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I agree with this for trains going from Manchester to Marple in the late afternoon, as coming up to Christmas often all the seats taken with many people on cheap fares sitting while workers that paid full fair are having to stand.
However I don’t see way the trains into Manchester cannot remain as off-peak in the late afternoon as they are mostly empty.
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I agree with this for trains going from Manchester to Marple in the late afternoon, as coming up to Christmas often all the seats taken with many people on cheap fares sitting while workers that paid full fair are having to stand.
Classic divide and rule strategy. Gets people away from the real ethics of the issue, which is why there should be a peak / off peak price structure at all. The whole principle is grossly unfair on commuters who choose to take the train instead of lone drivers polluting the atmosphere. Rather like charging people extra to go on holiday in the school holidays.
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The charges must cover the cost of providing enough trains for the peak time demand; however these trains are then empty for most of the day. So why not fill them up with people that would not have chosen to travel at full price?
The peak ticket cost of the train into Manchester is less than the cost of parking all day in most car parks in Manchester; therefore I don’t think people are driving to work due to the cost of rail tickets. It is more to do with offices being built outside of the town center, and people not wishing to walk from the station to work, or sit in a train with other people.
However at off-peat time, my wife could decide to shop in Manchester or to drive else where to shop, so having a lower cost may get more usage. (I am not into shopping!)
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I agree with ringi - the trains are grossly overcrowded at peak times, including the late afternoon trains out of Piccadilly, so it's reasonable to charge a peak-time fare then to encourage people (such as shoppers), who don't have to travel at that time, to come home earlier or later. But I don't see why the peak fare should be charged for a train going IN to Piccadilly at, say 5 pm, as that train will be almost empty.
The real issue, though, is that no-one should be paying a penny more for the disgraceful train service we get at Marple and Rose Hill. As marplerambler rightly said, we have been singled out to suffer the worst trains in the country - they are cramped, noisy, uncomfortable and unreliable. And yet this is one of the most highly subsidised services in the UK. Not surprising, I guess, as Northern Rail is such a laughably inefficient organisation - have you ever noticed the number of 'revenue protection' staff hanging around on the platforms at Piccadilly? Some days there are eight or nine of them, just standing around chatting to each other! ::)
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Northern Rail is such a laughably inefficient organisation - have you ever noticed the number of 'revenue protection' staff hanging around on the platforms at Piccadilly? Some days there are eight or nine of them, just standing around chatting to each other! ::)
Similarly, have you noticed how many 'revenue collection' officers' there are when you disembark at all stations other than Piccadilly or when you return to Rose Hill later in the day? Absolutely none, so lots of people travel without paying to and from all stations except Manchester if the guard does not check tickets from manned stations and collect fares from unmanned stations such as Woodley, Hyde Cental, Fairfield or Gorton (or Rose Hill later in the day)! Trains without guards are practical only only if you have stations such as those on the London Underground which are impossible to access or leave without having to pass through or very conspicuously jump over turnstiles. Are Northern Trains prepared to invest in the equipment to make it much harder to evade fares at these stations? What I find bewildering in the evening rush period is the unbelievable number of people who get past the gate staff onto the train at Piccadilly without tickets hoping the guards on the train do not carry out a check. The guards seem to to have a pretty impossible task collecting the unpaid fares in the time available yet they nearly always seem to start checking tickets at the rear of the train but those trying to evade the fare especially if they are getting off before Woodley sit or stand at the front of the train. Occasionally you will see the guard checking tickets by starting at the front and get no further back than issuing tickets to those on the first few front seats because so few have paid. When the guard walks to the front of the train first you then see an attempt at mass migration to the rear carriage which can be quite comical when the train is already jam packed. TfGM and train companies should introduce an Oystercard swipe system which means that all passengers have to pass through a turnstile at every station and Northern Rail should get their priorities right and instead of taking an easy option of punishing the honest fare payer travelling after 9.30 should concentrate on cracking down on those who very deliberately attempt to evade fares. It isn't fare paying off-peak passengers who make a line unprofitable - it is fare evaders and an inefficient train operating company.
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It is Christmas already for Stagecoach and High Peak bus (and outside our area the Manchester to Ashton yellow cattle trucks). Rose Hill to Manchester up from £3.90 to £6.30 with similar increases throughout Greater Manchester. Stagecoach Dayrider £4.00. Just how many shoppers will vote with their feet?
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It is Christmas already for Stagecoach and High Peak bus (and outside our area the Manchester to Ashton yellow cattle trucks). Rose Hill to Manchester up from £3.90 to £6.30 with similar increases throughout Greater Manchester. Stagecoach Dayrider £4.00. Just how many shoppers will vote with their feet?
Should help the local economy.
The obvious thing in marple is to close rose hill
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Should help the local economy.
The obvious thing in marple is to close rose hill
I think you need to explain this one Duke. Rose Hill station has gone from strength to strength over the past few years, with passenger numbers increasing significantly. I used the station on Thursday and virtually all the parking spaces were full. Fantastic - all those cars off the road! In complete contrast to a few years ago, when I used to use the service and it was clearly the cinderella of the GM services.
If only Northern Rail would see the sense of putting on a couple more evening trains, as I've always suspected that this simple thing is holding the route back. For anyone who regulalrly commutes, but with the potential for the odd late graft or post work beer, the lack of trains after 6.30 is a real issue.
Whilst Northern Trains are not the greatest and we are still lumbered with shocking rolling stock, they are still light years ahead of their former incumbents "First North Western" who used to provide an absolute apology of a service.
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I think you need to explain this one Duke. Rose Hill station has gone from strength to strength over the past few years, with passenger numbers increasing significantly.
Would that be since the number of trains from/through Marple was reduced to allow more to go to Rose Hill? Would be interested if anyone knows the total from both stations.
I do agree with the comment re evening trains, currently just not a realistic proposition but can't see the number increasing unless the service fragments between the two stations even more & this is unlikely given the later trains to Marple also serve New Mills
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I think you need to explain this one Duke. Rose Hill station has gone from strength to strength over the past few years, with passenger numbers increasing significantly. I used the station on Thursday and virtually all the parking spaces were full. Fantastic - all those cars off the road! In complete contrast to a few years ago, when I used to use the service and it was clearly the cinderella of the GM services.
If only Northern Rail would see the sense of putting on a couple more evening trains, as I've always suspected that this simple thing is holding the route back. For anyone who regulalrly commutes, but with the potential for the odd late graft or post work beer, the lack of trains after 6.30 is a real issue.
Whilst Northern Trains are not the greatest and we are still lumbered with shocking rolling stock, they are still light years ahead of their former incumbents "First North Western" who used to provide an absolute apology of a service.
I think it will help the local economy of Marple if travel to manchester is dearer.
On closing Rose Hill. It's expensive to maintain two stations. If it were me, I'd look at running a light rail to Manc from Marple & New Mills with heavy rail just making the scenic trip from New Mills to Sheff. we can see more services into Manchester by avoiding the Picadilly bottleneck and run light rail away from ht mainline. Surely a shuttle bus around Marple to meed the light rail will take more cars off the road. Rose Hill land and the track bed can be sold.
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This is confusing even for you Duke. You seem to be saying you want higher fares to help Marple's economy the aim being I assume to restrict the number of people leaving the suburb of Marple and at the same time making proposals to increase the number of trains taking people away by using light rail?
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Would that be since the number of trains from/through Marple was reduced to allow more to go to Rose Hill? Would be interested if anyone knows the total from both stations.
AFAIK the total number of trains between Marple/Rose Hill and Piccadilly has remained more or less unchanged - the extra trains from Rose Hill were simply switched from Marple, which used to have three trains per hour and now has only two.
I seem to recall that when this change took place a couple of years ago, our councillors eagerly sent round newsletters trumpeting their success in gaining 'extra trains for Rose Hill', without ever mentioning that they had simply been switched from Marple (as if we hadn't noticed!) ::)
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This is confusing even for you Duke. You seem to be saying you want higher fares to help Marple's economy the aim being I assume to restrict the number of people leaving the suburb of Marple and at the same time making proposals to increase the number of trains taking people away by using light rail?
2 issues wheels. I made two points so thought I'd cover both. They don't need to be connected.
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AFAIK the total number of trains between Marple/Rose Hill and Piccadilly has remained more or less unchanged - the extra trains from Rose Hill were simply switched from Marple, which used to have three trains per hour and now has only two.
Dave, sorry I didn't make myself clear. What you say is my recollection as well. I was wondering whether the passenger totals across the two stations had markedly increased or whether some people had simply switched from Marple to Rose Hill. This is because others e.g. Belly were talking about increased Rose Hill useage, which I'm sure is true. The key is whther this is new ppeople moving from say car to rail, or just the existing passengers changing station
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Dave, sorry I didn't make myself clear. What you say is my recollection as well. I was wondering whether the passenger totals across the two stations had markedly increased or whether some people had simply switched from Marple to Rose Hill. This is because others e.g. Belly were talking about increased Rose Hill useage, which I'm sure is true. The key is whther this is new ppeople moving from say car to rail, or just the existing passengers changing station
I take your point Corium. I personally use Rose Hill a lot more now the service is equally split - albeit that i am only an occasional train user these days. Previously (apart from when I lived literally round the corner from RH and commuted to Manchester everyday) I would use Marple station, as the 3 trains to 1 split meant it was a better bet, if I didn't have a specific journey in mind. Now I just go to the station where the next train is due to leave from (or where I'm likely to get parked if I'm travelling after 8.30).
The three trains to marple was always a bit wierd though wasn't it - as it didn't deliver a 20 minute frequency. The third 'fast' train being out of synch with the others. I don't think its loss during the main daytime period and subsequent transfer to Rose Hill has had too much of an effect on numbers at Marple station.
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I don't use Rose Hill so I can't comment on passenger numbers there, but as a frequent user of Marple station, and of its car parks, my impression is that parking (which has been very difficult for some years) may have become a bit easier in the past year or two. So maybe some people who used to drive a mile or so from the west end of Marple are now walking to Rose Hill instead? But that's a very subjective impression and I'm not too sure.
As for this:
I think it will help the local economy of Marple if travel to manchester is dearer.
...... I can't make any sense of it! People travel to Manchester for work, for entertainment (theatre, clubbing, concerts), and to shop for clothes and other special purchases, of which Manchester offers a range that certainly can't be met in Marple. So no-one is going to say 'I can't afford to go in to Manchester for work, or a concert, or whatever, so I'll get a job, or go to a concert, in Marple instead!'
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You talk of using the train for concerts in Manchester. I would love to be able to be able to leave the car at home and to go to Manchester from Marple or Rose Hill to concerts at the Bridgewater Hall but the concerts tend to finish at just after 9.30 and the train is at 9.49pm and has been at round about the same time during the fourteen years I have lived in Marple. In theory it is just about enough time to walk across Manchester or take the yellow cattle truck but sometime things run a bit late or there is an encore. Just miss the 9.49pm and you are waiting for an hour for the next train. I have heard too many reports of cars being vandalised or drivers attacked on the A6 in Longsight/Levenshulme and have twice been on a 192 where gangs of youths completely trashed the upper deck of the bus at about 10pm (this was in 1995/1996 when there were no cameras on the buses and when the problems with vandalism led to Stagecoach replacing almost its entire double decker fleet in Stockport with single deckers - one of the advantages of moving to Marple in 1995 was the 383/384 was one of the tiny number of routes which kept its double deckers). We never drive to Manchester but leave the car at Stockport station. I would bet that if the evening service was half hourly to Marple/ Rose Hill that there would be quite a few Marpudlians who would leave the car at home and catch the train.
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I would bet that if the evening service was half hourly to Marple/ Rose Hill that there would be quite a few Marpudlians who would leave the car at home and catch the train.
Agreed. It's good that we now have the Friends of Marple Station - one of the best things they could do is campaign for a more frequent service in the evenings and on Sundays.
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The rail network is decades behind the rest of the country in having massively reduced Sunday services. It is now an established busy shopping day for many people. I feel sure that if services were increased then passenger levels would increase accordingly.
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Bit off topic but marple rambler, I live in stockport and often drive home late at night along the A6. Apart from people's tendencies to step straight out into the road without looking I've never had any problems. I also travel back through gorton sometimes and pick up the motorway to Stockport. I was a bit surprised to see your description of how dangerous that route is!
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Certainly agree on the need for a better evening service I tend to go into Manchester around 11.30pm returning about 5am and there is nothing at that time
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Does travel to manchester at 11.30 pm and return at 5 am count as evening service?
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The rail network is decades behind the rest of the country in having massively reduced Sunday services.
Totally agree, the service after 8.45pm is woeful (once an hour), on a Sunday once the winter schedule kicks in it is once every 2 hours and if you are disabled it is impossible to get a train to Manchester on a Sunday. (There is no service from Rose Hill and the lift at Marple doesn't work because the ticket office is closed).
Unfortunately Transport for Manchester is Labour controlled; only spending really big money on services to Labour Councils.
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Totally agree, the service after 8.45pm is woeful (once an hour), on a Sunday once the winter schedule kicks in it is once every 2 hours and if you are disabled it is impossible to get a train to Manchester on a Sunday. (There is no service from Rose Hill and the lift at Marple doesn't work because the ticket office is closed).
Unfortunately Transport for Manchester is Labour controlled; only spending really big money on services to Labour Councils.
But if service is increased later and on Sundays will people use them ..
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Unfortunately Transport for Manchester is Labour controlled; only spending really big money on services to Labour Councils.
Is there any evidence for that?
the lift at Marple doesn't work because the ticket office is closed
That has always struck me as odd, as well as being most unhelpful - it must have cost many £1,000's to install those lifts, so it's a pity to see that money being wasted when they are out of use. Does anyone understand why the lifts only work when the ticket office is open?
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That has always struck me as odd, as well as being most unhelpful - it must have cost many £1,000's to install those lifts, so it's a pity to see that money being wasted when they are out of use. Does anyone understand why the lifts only work when the ticket office is open?
Just a guess, but as the station is unattended, there would be no-one to prevent vandals. Therefore they're lock when there are no staff on site.
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Just a guess, but as the station is unattended, there would be no-one to prevent vandals. Therefore they're lock when there are no staff on site.
And I suspect there will be a "health & safety" angle as well - what happens if someone gets stuck in the lifts when the station is unattended.
Both are fairly easy to work around, if GMPTE had the will to do so.
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But if service is increased later and on Sundays will people use them
I think the answer to that is yes, at the moment sometimes people can't get on the last train because it is so full.
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That has always struck me as odd, as well as being most unhelpful - it must have cost many £1,000's to install those lifts, so it's a pity to see that money being wasted when they are out of use. Does anyone understand why the lifts only work when the ticket office is open?
It's probably an 'elf 'n safety issue.
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It's probably an 'elf 'n safety issue.
If that's the reason (and I can't think of any other) then it's a cop-out. Marpleexile blames GMPTE, but I believe Northern Rail operates the local stations in this area?
Lifts invariably have an emergency button so that if they get stuck, passengers can speak to someone via a two-way radio. In unattended buildings (e.g.blocks of flats which often don't have 24-hour staffing), the link is to some kind of central 24-hour emergency service. I would imagine that any company owning premises with a lift can subscribe to such a service.
Presumably Northern Rail was given a nice fat grant to provide disabled access, but is too greedy to pay a small charge for an emergency service which would enable the lifts can be used at all times they might be needed. The result of privatisation again, no doubt. ::)
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Dave, do you gave any evidence for the statements you made in your final paragraph? You're usually quite hot on the importance of "evidence".
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I was speculating (hence the word ''presumably'), but I'm open minded, as ever ;). If BG or anyone else can suggest an alternative explanation then it would be good to hear it.
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I was speculating (hence the word ''presumably'), but I'm open minded, as ever ;). If BG or anyone else can suggest an alternative explanation then it would be good to hear it.
You finish with the most stupid "The result of privatisation again, no doubt." you can't hide behind ''presumably" and finish with a "no doubt"
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Still waiting for BG or DF (or anyone else) to come up with an alternative explanation as to why Northern Rail should install very expensive lifts and then allow them to be unavailable on Sundays and at other times when the station is not staffed. Any ideas?
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The lifts were paid for by Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM), they obtained the money in the form of a grant from the EU. As the lifts are on property controlled by Northern Rail they decide what they operating procedure. TfGM will blame NR for not allowing the lifts to run when the station is unmanned, NR will blame TfGM for not giving them enough funding to allow them to man the station on a Sunday. I have now sent a question to TfGM to try and get a definitive statement on this.
By the way I have now had it confirmed that the concessionary pass is unaffected by the new Off Peak changes introduced by NR.
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Still waiting for BG or DF (or anyone else) to come up with an alternative explanation as to why Northern Rail should install very expensive lifts and then allow them to be unavailable on Sundays and at other times when the station is not staffed. Any ideas?
I'd guess it's fallen between two stools in terms of funding. I'll not claim there is no-doubt about this, it's just a guess.
I'd have thought that the stations do not really need to be manned and an emergency buttong on all stations would be useful and cheaper than paying station staff at Marple, Rose Hill or anywhere else for that matter.
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This introduction of Evening Peak restrictions is just shocking; not only the changes but the speed at which they're coming in and the lack of voice the public has. A vastly better option in my opinion would have been to just increase ALL off-peak tickets - they are really quite well-priced and the huge leap up to a Peak fare has always been hard to swallow.
Another smart idea to increase revenue (since the problem is Northern now getting less subsidy from DfT) might have been to put a ticket machine at EVERY station and make it mandatory have a ticket before boarding.
But no, what we have is a full-scale crippling of off-peak travel on our railways. It is also important that even though the peak restriction is advertised as 4.01pm-6.30pm, the actual trains you'd be able to travel on with an off-peak ticket are much further apart.
For Marple, not so bad: last return train before the peak is 15:49, but then you'd have to wait until 18:49.
At Rose Hill, last afternoon off-peak return is as early as 15:34, then the frankly absurd situation of only TWO return trains after the peak, at 18:35 and 20:35.
Strines has the worst early return time of 15:14, a full 46 mins before the restrictions actually take effect! Taking the mickey is a return train at 16:02, departing a crucial one minute after the cut-off. Decide to stay later and the FIRST off-peak return which stops here is 19:49 - 1hr 19mins after the peak actually ends! Peak return is £7.70 versus £4.20 off peak.
I really hope the Friends of Strines Station can question Northern Rail about this. Since trains pass through to New Mills as often as every 30mins anyway, it shouldn't take much to change those which stop, or add more stopping, to soften this disaster.
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This introduction of Evening Peak restrictions is just shocking; not only the changes but the speed at which they're coming in and the lack of voice the public has. A vastly better option in my opinion would have been to just increase ALL off-peak tickets - they are really quite well-priced and the huge leap up to a Peak fare has always been hard to swallow.
Another smart idea to increase revenue (since the problem is Northern now getting less subsidy from DfT) might have been to put a ticket machine at EVERY station and make it mandatory have a ticket before boarding.
But no, what we have is a full-scale crippling of off-peak travel on our railways. It is also important that even though the peak restriction is advertised as 4.01pm-6.30pm, the actual trains you'd be able to travel on with an off-peak ticket are much further apart.
For Marple, not so bad: last return train before the peak is 15:49, but then you'd have to wait until 18:49.
At Rose Hill, last afternoon off-peak return is as early as 15:34, then the frankly absurd situation of only TWO return trains after the peak, at 18:35 and 20:35.
Strines has the worst early return time of 15:14, a full 46 mins before the restrictions actually take effect! Taking the mickey is a return train at 16:02, departing a crucial one minute after the cut-off. Decide to stay later and the FIRST off-peak return which stops here is 19:49 - 1hr 19mins after the peak actually ends! Peak return is £7.70 versus £4.20 off peak.
I really hope the Friends of Strines Station can question Northern Rail about this. Since trains pass through to New Mills as often as every 30mins anyway, it shouldn't take much to change those which stop, or add more stopping, to soften this disaster.
I tend to think it's just one of the trade-offs of living out in the sticks.
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The lifts were paid for by Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM), they obtained the money in the form of a grant from the EU. As the lifts are on property controlled by Northern Rail they decide what they operating procedure. TfGM will blame NR for not allowing the lifts to run when the station is unmanned, NR will blame TfGM for not giving them enough funding to allow them to man the station on a Sunday.
Thanks to Victor for that - it sounds all too plausible. However, it should not be necessary for the station to be manned in order for the lifts to be in use - as Duke rightly says, a 24-hour emergency call-out service, as widely used elsewhere, would be sufficient.
My point about privatisation was simply that the first duty of a private company is to its shareholders, and that is as it should be, of course. Sometimes the interests of shareholders and the public can coincide - for example, the removal of off-peak fares during the evening peak period should both increase revenue and ease overcrowding by encouraging those who can travel at other times to do so. Although like others on this thread, I can see no justification for charging peak fares for those who travel in to Manchester in the late afternoons and evenings - that will just drive people back on to our already overcrowded roads.
But this looks like a classic case where the interests of shareholders have triumphed over the best interests of the public, and taxpayers' money (in the form of EU funding for the lifts) is being partially wasted because a private company won't stump up the cash to make the lifts fully available.
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I have now had a response from TfGM and I have copied it below, it appears that a disabled person needs to contact Northern Rail 24hrs. in advance and they will organise someone to be there! Any volunteers to put this to the test?
Here is a copy of the email I received yesterday
This is a matter for the train operator to deal with and I suggest you contact Northern Rail direct.
However, before doing so, check the website;
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/disabled_passengers.aspx
The site states;
‘Information for disabled passengers
Travel Assistance
Accessible stations and Stations Made Easy
Mobility ScootersDiscounts
Train Facilities
Further Information This page is a summary of information available on the National Rail Enquiries website to help make your journey go as smoothly as possible. Clicking on underlined words will take you to a page containing more detailed information on each topic.
Travel assistance
Rail services are now far more accessible than they were in the past and many disabled people are able to use the rail network without assistance.
We will always do our best to help disabled passengers that need assistance, but if you need help when travelling by rail, it is best to book assistance in advance so that we can ensure that any help you may need is provided.
In particular, we would recommend that you book assistance if you:
• Have a mobility or other disability that means you find getting on and off trains difficult;
• Are a wheelchair user (on most services you will need to use a boarding ramp and, on some services reserve a wheelchair space on the train service you wish to use);
• Are a mobility scooter user (there are restrictions on different train operators which need to be checked, a boarding ramp will be required and possibly a reservation for the space onboard).
• Have a sight impairment and need guiding around a station or help boarding and alighting from your train;
• Have difficulty walking long distances – at some stations we can provide a station wheelchair or, at some larger stations, access to an electric buggy.
We recommend that you book help 24 hours before you travel. This enables us to: give you as much information as possible before your travel; make alternative arrangements for you if the station is not step free or not staffed at the time you wish to travel; and ensure that there are enough staff for all the assistance requests at a station. Overall, this allows us to provide you with the best possible assistance on the day’.
Also, please see attached (the Northern Rail Disabled Persons Guide ‘Making Rail Accessible’) which outlines the matter in detail.
The issue is one for Northern Rail to deal with, and they can be contacted on textphone 08456 045 608 or by email to-
assistance@northernrail.org
I hope this helps.
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That's interesting - as Victor says, it would be even more interesting to find out whether the system actually works.
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Well let's hope there is some improved service. The ticket machine was broken Sat - Tuesday at least, so not able to collect prepaid tickets & of course the booking office was having a break when my wife went to ask how she was supposed to travel.
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I have now had a response from TfGM and I have copied it below, it appears that a disabled person needs to contact Northern Rail 24hrs. in advance and they will organise someone to be there! Any volunteers to put this to the test?
I have responded to TfGM rep here is a copy of my email#
Thanks for your response, unfortunately I think it is would be better if you contacted Northern Rail and see what they would do in these circumstances. If their answer is that they would arrange someone to be in attendance then you would be in a position to then publicise this in any future literature.
Please let me know what they say.
I await their response