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Archive => Archived Boards => Local Issues => Topic started by: 1877 on July 02, 2014, 02:48:00 PM
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Marple Hall School intends to formally apply to add a sixth form from September 2015. The rationale remains to provide additional choice regarding post-16 study. What was, when first mooted before Christmas, a proposal of dubious merit that is surely even more the case now that the local colleges have both secured grade 2 "good" ratings from Ofsted. With its proposed limited A level offer (with all subjects being available at both local colleges) being one characterised by duplication rather than additionality one wonders who stands to gain from this proposal. From their own data only 18% of the Year 10 students who would be eligible to apply indicated that they would consider applying to the MHS sixth form, hardly a ringing endorsement of the proposal. I struggle to comprehend how a staff with little or no experience of delivering A level will contribute to raising standards of achievement post-16. At a time when public spending is under ever closer scrutiny it would appear to be profligate to take the school in this direction. As Larkin said in his poem "Dockery and Son"-
"Why did he think adding meant increase?
To me it was dilution."
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Young people now have to stay in education until 18, so more sixth-form places (or apprenticeships) are required somewhere. I hadn't noticed the population of Marple decreasing. As class sizes are restricted, duplication is inevitable anyway.
Since Marple Hall will be focusing on A-levels rather than vocational courses, those who live in Marple but might previously have gone to Aquinas College may greatly appreciate a local sixth form that they can walk to rather than a long and slow bus journey every morning and evening.
Most secondary-school teachers should be capable of teaching A-level in their own subject, and many might actually prefer it. In the past few years Marple Hall has been putting many students into AS-levels anyway, particularly in Maths. Having A-level teaching on site might allow pupils considerably more flexibility as to exactly when they took exams.
Sixth forms within secondary schools allow continuity in teaching from the lower forms, rather than what happens at the moment: sixth-form colleges have to go back to the lowest common denominator when students from various feeder schools with different curricula enter. There is also a considerable loss of teaching time in the summer term after GCSEs have finished but pupils have nothing to go on to.
Some students prefer sixth-form colleges; some prefer schools with sixth forms. Give them a choice rather than force them down one route. They all have to be taught somewhere, so I doubt that public spending will have much relevance.
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Marple Hall School intends to formally apply to add a sixth form from September 2015. The rationale remains to provide additional choice regarding post-16 study. What was, when first mooted before Christmas, a proposal of dubious merit that is surely even more the case now that the local colleges have both secured grade 2 "good" ratings from Ofsted. With its proposed limited A level offer (with all subjects being available at both local colleges) being one characterised by duplication rather than additionality one wonders who stands to gain from this proposal. From their own data only 18% of the Year 10 students who would be eligible to apply indicated that they would consider applying to the MHS sixth form, hardly a ringing endorsement of the proposal. I struggle to comprehend how a staff with little or no experience of delivering A level will contribute to raising standards of achievement post-16. At a time when public spending is under ever closer scrutiny it would appear to be profligate to take the school in this direction. As Larkin said in his poem "Dockery and Son"-
"Why did he think adding meant increase?
To me it was dilution."
What an odd idea that you have to be specially trained to teach 6th form curricula! Teachers train to teach all levels and age groups.
I taught for the greater part of my working life and somehow managed to teach all secondary age groups from 1st year/year 7 to A level and achieved good results at all levels and I wasn't unusual in this. In any case teachers do have in-service training, you know.
Leaving aside the academic advantages to being in a dedicated 6th form, it gives the older pupils the opportunity to learn a degree of responsibility by being involved in the day to day running of the school and for the younger pupils to have examples to look up to and learn from, often sub-consciously. I only taught in one school where this didn't work and that was one where the sixth form was kept completely separate from the rest of the school and had no interaction with the younger pupils.
In one of the best schools I taught in, the 6th form not only provided prefects but also ran out-of-school and lunch time activities. They certainly had privileges but those privileges had to be earned and they took their positions and their responsibilities to the school and to their fellow pupils very seriously.
As has been said the requirement for all pupils to remain at school until 18 will mean that more places will be required and it is likely that if many secondary schools establish 6th forms they are likely to concentrate on the academic side while their less academic and/or more practically minded pupils will choose more vocational paths through places like CAMSFC. Oops! That sounds like the old 11Plus - I'll go and wash my mouth out!
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I have a child in year 10 and she is going to Marple College like her older sibling. College is a better step between school and uni in my opinion. Wearing own clothes, teachers called first names, more self directed study etc. Also location in the centre (although MIA would argue this ;)) means they can go to the park at lunch or one of the numerous shops.
I never got the obsession with going to Aquinas when there is a college on your doorstep. If a child makes an effort they will do well in most colleges. No need to ring round in panic early in the morning to get a place.
MHS gave up on the AS Maths as far as I know. My older child did it and many didn't get good/pass grades even though they got A* in GCSE (only the very top set did it).
As for kids having to stay in school till 18, this happens now (age is 17 now) and nothing is actually done about it or enforced so it seems a bit pointless.
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My children went to MHS and then on to college. One went to CAMSFC and one is at Aquinas. As far as the teaching quality goes, I can't really see much difference. However, my son chose Aquinas because CAMSFC didn't have the courses he needed, specifically computing. With the importance of computing to modern life I find this quite surprising. Both colleges have a specific track to deal with incoming students who have already done AS maths from schools such as MHS.
When visiting the colleges, Aquinas does feel a world apart in it's facilities. It certainly feels far more like a modern university than CAMSFC which has its aging and sub-standard infrastructure. It feels like an old secondary school which is exactly what it is. Aquinas, with its modern building, is far more attractive. Let's face it, shiny sells. I know this is what CAMSFC's ASDA plan was supposed to correct. However, that's history. I suspect that if pupils look at their local sixth form options and see two aging secondary school buildings and one open, bright, shiny campus with excellent facilities, Aquinas could prove more attractive than CAMSFC and MHS.
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Having attended a new parents' forum at Marple Sixth Form College last night I am even more sceptical about the Marple Hall proposal. I noted that the A level pass rate last summer was 99.5% and the equivalent figure for BTEC level 3 100%. Even more striking was the fact that in terms of success (retention x achievement) our local college outperforms Loreto, Xaverian, Ashton and Aquinas by some distance.
It was also pointed out that 24% of those who progressed to university did so at a prestigious Russell Group university. Further cause to support our local college I think.
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MHS gave up on the AS Maths as far as I know. My older child did it and many didn't get good/pass grades even though they got A* in GCSE (only the very top set did it).
This is true, however it is being replaced with a new bridging qualification whose name escapes me for the moment (one of my children is interested)
The Marple Hall ASs have gradually been removed. This was partially due to low numbers & University views in relation to early language Ass but as I know (from family experience) there were also problems when people went on to college and wanted to do the A2. Aquinas saw it as an unfortunate inconvenience, CAMS treated it with something approaching a rant against a school it was supposed to be working with as its main feeder
Though I like the 6th form college I idea I do recognise it may not be the best for some and the (limited) MHS proposals will give an alternative to those who prefer a more traditional 6th form approach. My personal experience over the last couple of years is that at the options stage the staff at Aquinas do a far more positive job than CAMS where I have had some shocking experiences in terms of trying to "sell" the college to students as a place to go. One, yes could be an off night but several across different subjects?
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I have said this before in other posts but I feel it is worth repeating.
I have always thought Marple is very fortunate to have a sixth form college. They do a lot with less funding:
Funding per student in sixth form colleges: £4601 - success rates are 84%
Funding per student in secondary school sixth forms: £5620 - success rates are 69%
Funding per student in secondary academies: £7880
On top of this, the college appears to be more settled, with the grade 2 Ofsted etc. I would never want my own children to go to a school sixth form (especially an untested one) when I am lucky enough to have a sixth form college on my doorstep.
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On top of this, the college appears to be more settled, with the grade 2 Ofsted etc. I would never want my own children to go to a school sixth form (especially an untested one) when I am lucky enough to have a sixth form college on my doorstep.
Well a new sixth from at MHS would hardly be 'untested' - there was a substantial and very good sixth form there until about 1990.
Good luck to them I say. It's good to provide choice, to suit the needs of different kinds of youngsters. And as Henrietta has said, the MHS staff certainly won't have any difficulty teaching to A level - they are generally very well qualified. And over time, I suspect the addition of a sixth form will help the school attract more applications for teaching vacancies, as the opportunity to teach to a more advanced level tends to be an attraction to people working in education. And more applicants means that the school can be even more choosy about who it appoints.
Hollins makes several very good points, especially this:
Sixth forms within secondary schools allow continuity in teaching from the lower forms, rather than what happens at the moment: sixth-form colleges have to go back to the lowest common denominator when students from various feeder schools with different curricula enter. There is also a considerable loss of teaching time in the summer term after GCSEs have finished but pupils have nothing to go on to.
And there are some significant advantages to the younger pupils having 16-18 year olds staying on. For example, it tends to strengthen the quality and quantity of extra-curricular activities - sport, music, drama etc.
The only major problem, I suspect, will be facilities. AFAIK MHS have got no additional capital to build new accommodation. Sixth form students expect (and in some cases need) specialised equipment and facilities - laboratories, studios, maybe a nice common room etc.
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Dave, how interesting to see that you are a supporter of market forces in Further Education. My take on this development is that it will be the final nail in the coffin for Cheadle & Marple College in Marple. I suspect that, within three years, they will consolidate their operations in Cheadle. I said as much to "Miss Marple" when she was haranguing us in Market Street a couple of years ago.
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I'm a great believer in the benefits of market forces in all sorts of areas, so I'm not sure why my support for them in FE should be particularly 'interesting'. I would only have had reservations about the MHS proposals if taxpayers' money were being wasted, which could have occurred if MHS were to be allocated substantial capital grants for their plans, at the same time as the college is also receiving capital funding for its scheme on Buxton Lane. But AFAIK that is not happening. So the only financial impact on public spending will be that the sixth-formers at MHS will cost us more than the students at the college, as explained above by Henry01. But I think that additional cost could be justified by the benefits.
As for Bowden Guy's speculation about the longer term impact on the college, he could well be right - we shall see. But if the college can press ahead with improving its facilities on Buxton Lane it could still hold its place in the market. As Howard says, 'shiny sells'! And as for consolidating in Cheadle, I believe the college has similar problems over there, with increasing competition from other new sixth forms.
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The Marple Hall proposals are relatively small - the maximum size anticipated is, I think 120/ 150 students and this won't happen straight away. I would have thought the bigger threat to CAMS is Derbyshire providing an attractive alternative as I understand 25-30% of CAMS students come from across the border. Also to be considered is that though still some years away there is a big population growth working it's way up the system
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Just to add whatever your views anyone can put their views on the formal consultation whether a parent or a member of the wider community. This needs to be done by July 29th to:
Schools Organisaton
Stockport Metropolitan Borough Council
Services to People
3rd Floor Stopford House
Stockport SK1 3XE
Or via email to schools.organisation@stockport.gov.uk
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I have said this before in other posts but I feel it is worth repeating.
I have always thought Marple is very fortunate to have a sixth form college. They do a lot with less funding:
Funding per student in sixth form colleges: £4601 - success rates are 84%
Funding per student in secondary school sixth forms: £5620 - success rates are 69%
Funding per student in secondary academies: £7880
On top of this, the college appears to be more settled, with the grade 2 Ofsted etc. I would never want my own children to go to a school sixth form (especially an untested one) when I am lucky enough to have a sixth form college on my doorstep.
Not entirely impressed by the percentage success rates.
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It's important to take all education data (e.g. retention, achievement, success) with a generous pinch of salt. Sixth form college success rates tend to be higher than school sixth forms because the colleges are more likely to offer less demanding 'vocational' qualifications, such as BTEC National Diplomas. And if a college student is struggling with their A levels and shows signs of dropping out, they can be switched ti a BTEC, and if they complete their time at college and pass, it still counts as a 'success'.
In schools, if an A level student is having difficulty, it can be more difficult to provide an easier option, so they are more likely to drop out completely.
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Not entirely impressed by the percentage success rates.
Don't forget that is an average success rate for all sixth form colleges. According to the college themselves, Marple success rates have been 96% for the last three years.
It's important to take all education data (e.g. retention, achievement, success) with a generous pinch of salt. Sixth form college success rates tend to be higher than school sixth forms because the colleges are more likely to offer less demanding 'vocational' qualifications, such as BTEC National Diplomas. And if a college student is struggling with their A levels and shows signs of dropping out, they can be switched ti a BTEC, and if they complete their time at college and pass, it still counts as a 'success'.
In schools, if an A level student is having difficulty, it can be more difficult to provide an easier option, so they are more likely to drop out completely.
I get your point about vocational courses. However I do think that regardless of where you are studying, if you are showing signs of dropping out in the middle of a course, it would be very difficult to switch to another one in the same academic year in order to boost success rates. Anyway, Stockport Academy sixth form offers BTEC courses.
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Don't forget that is an average success rate for all sixth form colleges. According to the college themselves, Marple success rates have been 96% for the last three years.
I think 96% must be the college's achievement rate, not its success rate. (Definitions: achievement rate is the % of students who entered the exam who pass. Success rate is the % of those students who enrolled who pass. The success rate is invariably lower than the achievement rate because of dropouts).
I do think that regardless of where you are studying, if you are showing signs of dropping out in the middle of a course, it would be very difficult to switch to another one in the same academic year in order to boost success rates.
Don't forget these are two-year courses. When students switch from A levels to BTECS it's often at the end of year 1.
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I think 96% must be the college's achievement rate, not its success rate. (Definitions: achievement rate is the % of students who entered the exam who pass. Success rate is the % of those students who enrolled who pass. The success rate is invariably lower than the achievement rate because of dropouts).
I assumed the 96% was success rate. Not sure where I'd heard it but it was in some college literature. The college website says their A level pass rate was 98.9% (with vocational courses at 100%), which must therefore be the achievement rate.
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Just had a look on the Skills Funding Agency website, and extracted the following data for camsfc in 2012/13:
All qualifications, all age groups. Starters: 7,030 Success 84.0%, Retention 89.3%, Achievement 94.0%
It tales some finding, but it's in here: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/sfa-national-success-rates-tables-2012-to-2013
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It did take some finding! Interestingly, according to those figures, CAMS and Aquinas both had success of around 84%, exactly in line with the national average for sixth form colleges.
I still don't fully understand where the Skills Funding Agency figures come from if CAMS have given their own figure of 98.9%/100% for achievement.
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I suspect the 98.9% figure applies to a particular type or level of qualification. You can't blame them for wanting to pick out the statistic that shows them in the best possible light! But I think the success/achievement rates for all qualifications are the most appropriate ones to use.
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Seems obvious now but didn't notice before - 94% is for all qualifications, including AS level which has a higher failure rate. The 98.9% is for the full A level.
Anyway - I stand by what I said. Sixth form colleges on average outperform school sixth forms on success rates by 15%, and we have now seen that the Marple stats are in line with other colleges. I want to continue to have a successful sixth form college in Marple for my own children. No point in having a school sixth form as the college covers all the more 'academic' subjects the school plans to offer. The school should concentrate on what it already does well, and not divert funding away from the earlier year groups.
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Hazel Grove High School has a 6th form.
Poynton High School has a 6th form.
New Mills High School has a 6th form.
Cheadle Hume High School has a 6th form.
It would seem that plenty of local towns think that high schools with a 6th form are OK. Indeed, several of these are upgrading sixth-form buildings at present.
From the Marple Hall plans (I'm quoting):
- The sixth form will provide Marple Hall School students an additional choice regarding post 16 study. Currently, the choice to stay at their own school is denied to them where as it is open to learners in other schools in Stockport and in schools in neighbouring authorities.
- The admission limit for Year 12 each year will be 120 learners
- When established with both Years 12 and 13, the sixth form will accommodate between 200 and 240 learners
- The sixth form will concentrate on Level 3 ‘A Level’ qualifications
- A Levels will be offered in around 20 subjects such as Mathematics and Further Mathematics, English, Physics, Biology, Chemistry, Geography, History, four Modern Languages, Drama, Music, Art and Design, Media, Food Technology, Design Technology, Business Studies and PE.
- The exact range of subjects taught each year will depend on student numbers and choices
- Initially sixth form facilities will be based within the main school building. There will be no major building project during the start-up years.
I wouldn't have a problem with any of that, and 120 learners per year is not going to put too many dents in the intake of Marple Sixth-Form College or Aquinas.
There's room for everyone.
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I think hollins is right. Marple is a town with a population of 23,000, and as others have pointed out, on top of that both the school and the college recruit significant numbers of students from outside the Marple area. There's room for a 6th form at MHS without damaging the college, and it is good to provide choice to meet the different needs of different youngsters.
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Hazel Grove High School has a 6th form.
Poynton High School has a 6th form.
New Mills High School has a 6th form.
Cheadle Hume High School has a 6th form.
Two of those schools are outside the Stockport authority, so can't really be compared. More crucially, not one of those schools has another provider of state 16-18 education a mile away, as Marple Hall would have. The one possible exception is Cheadle Hulme, which has the Cheadle campus of CAMS nearby. However if the focus of the Cheadle campus is moving away from A levels towards more vocational courses, there is not much overlap.
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Totally agree Henry.
Marple College are (understandably) very against the proposal and feel it would adversely affect their viability.
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However if the focus of the Cheadle campus is moving away from A levels towards more vocational courses, there is not much overlap.
Fair point but remember this wasn't the case when the 6th form was set up, I don't think they could have known about the changes in the college when they planned the 6th form.
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It's safe to assume that the Cheadle campus of camsfc is moving away from A levels to vocational courses as a direct result of competition from new 6th forms, and maybe the same could happen in Marple, although the circumstances are different here. For example, I believe Cheadle Hulme High School got a nice juicy capital grant to build a 6th form block with shiny new facilities, whereas nothing like that is on offer at MHS.
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It is my understanding that this application has been well and truly scuppered by the decision makers and will certainly not now be happening in the short -term if at all.
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It is my understanding that this application has been well and truly scuppered by the decision makers and will certainly not now be happening in the short -term if at all.
Thanks for the update. I am relieved for the college.
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11 people expressed support for this proposal
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On the one hand, it's disappointing that our youngsters will be denied a choice of post-16 education in the area, but on the other hand the lack of any capital available to provide new facilities at MHS meant that any new investment may well have been at the expense of the existing under-16 provision, and that can't be right.
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Thanks for the update. I am relieved for the college.
I'm not relieved for the students who would have benefited from the 6th form at Marple Hall.
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Well Dave the majority were not convinced by your argument as more wrote in against this idea than for it. Nor am I convinced I believed it would have don't caused damage to the majority of students at the school.
I have been careful to say nothing about this until the decision was made so as not to be appearing to speak for anyone.
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Well Dave the majority were not convinced by your argument as more wrote in against this idea than for it. Nor am I convinced I believed it would have don't caused damage to the majority of students at the school.
I have been careful to say nothing about this until the decision was made so as not to be appearing to speak for anyone.
It may have improved the standard of Inglish in marple ;-)
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Nor am I convinced I believed it would have don't caused damage to the majority of students at the school.
Any chance of a translation please?
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If local councillors have really prevented this then I begin to see reasons why Marple Hall should consider becoming an academy ...
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Any chance of a translation please?
No
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No
You don't understand it either then ::)
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You don't understand it either then ::)
You asked me politely I responded politely what's your problem this time.
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So common sense has prevailed and the already stretched public purse will not be put under further pressure as a result of having to resource a sixth form in a school when quality provision already exists in the locality. My faith in politicians/local authority officers is restored.....for the moment.
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So common sense has prevailed and the already stretched public purse will not be put under further pressure as a result of having to resource a sixth form in a school when quality provision already exists in the locality. My faith in politicians/local authority officers is restored.....for the moment.
Good Post
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The proposal has been rejected.