Marple Website Community Calendar
Archive => Archived Boards => Local Issues => Topic started by: Harry on December 12, 2013, 12:46:27 PM
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Following their unsuccessful attempt to raise funds, and a very poor Ofsted report, Marple College are continuing their journey to oblivion with yet another round of redundancies. Less staff, less courses and soon a planning application to sell the Hibbert Lane campus for housing.
What will the young people of Marple do when it comes time to study for their 'A' levels?
Thank goodness for Marple Hall School. They have just announced a proposal to start a Sixth Form from September 2015.
See http://www.marplehall.stockport.sch.uk/proposal/11177.html (http://www.marplehall.stockport.sch.uk/proposal/11177.html) for details.
What excellent news.
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Interesting news, and bang up to date - the announcement was only made today. And contrary to what some of us (including me) have assumed, it does not seem to be linked to any plan to become an Academy.
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I really hope that this proposal gets the green light. Sixth form colleges in Stockport are not doing well unless you manage to get a place at Aquinas.
It really is time to stop messing around with the education system and leave headteachers to get on with educating our children. It wasn't that long ago that Stockport schools had their own sixth forms and now, following Hazel Grove's example, it seems our schools want them back.
I expect in a few years we'll probably see a proposal to build a new primary school in Marple because of lack of places!
Marple Hall seems to be developing a strong vision for its future, following on from their good Ofsted. Very encouraging for Marple parents.
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It really is time to stop messing around with the education system and leave headteachers to get on with educating our children. It wasn't that long ago that Stockport schools had their own sixth forms and now, following Hazel Grove's example, it seems our schools want them back.
It depends what you mean "wasn't that long ago". The proposal for setting sixth form colleges was passed by Stockport Council in 1984 so that was 30 years ago. The last sixth form in Marple Hall was in 1990.
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Fair comment! I do think that school sixth forms will are a positive move backwards for Stockport schools though. I'm sure that it will encourage some good teachers back into the secondary education sector and gives a greater choice to pupils than they have at present.
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MHS's plan for a sixth form facility is all ancient history. It has been under discussion for a while now. It would have happened in September 14 if events had not overtaken it.
It was informed on this website last year and it will of course get ...'the green light.'
The consultation as we all know is only a piece of protocol that has to be satisfied. All we have to do now is abandon the 'Nuhope' and we will be on our way to having a good Senior school in Marple.
In the meantime C & MSFC seems to be travelling in the other direction. It is becoming increasingly difficult to see a future for it other than one gigantic housing scheme.
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The new sixth form at Marple Hall will undoubtedly be a great success because the school will do everything in its powers to recruit its own Year 11 pupils. In other parts of the country this often involves recruiting people on to quite inappropriate courses or recruiting them on to A Levels without the minimum entry requirements. I hope this will not be the case in Marple.
The likely outcome of this development is that the College will be forced to close its operations in Marple and concentrate on Cheadle. And, as is usually the case with the public sector, only after they have spent a huge amount of money on refurbishing their Buxton Lane, which will then be knocked down to build yet more houses.
Strangely enough, this was precisely the scenario I outlined to "Miss Marple" as she was haranguing people on Market Street about 18 months ago.....
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Interesting news, and bang up to date - the announcement was only made today. And contrary to what some of us (including me) have assumed, it does not seem to be linked to any plan to become an Academy.
There is no requirement for it to become an academy. If you are able to obtain the acquiescence of the local authority then there is no need for academy status. There are three Marple Councillors on the governing body and they will be against academy status. In addition to this the Chair of Governors is SMBC's Executive Member for Education, has been for two years and will probably still be so until 2015 when the Council will turn Labour. So in effect she will be signing her own decisions off until then - game, set and match.
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Like most other posters above, I regard this as a positive move, and I hope it is successful. Although it seems that there is no capital funding for MHS to build new specialised facilities - they are planning to rely simply on the per-capita recurrent funding which will come with each sixth form student enrolled. So don't expect a smart new student common room, new laboratories, studios or computer facilities, at least in the first two or three years.
As for this, it certainly raises a smile! And, as is usually the case with the public sector, only after they have spent a huge amount of money on refurbishing their Buxton Lane, which will then be knocked down to build yet more houses.
Until 20 years ago, sixth form colleges were part of local authority controlled education provision, and the LAs were able to plan and co-ordinate a seamless pattern of primary, secondary and tertiary provision in their area. The Further and Higher Education Act 1992 changed that, by removing FE and sixth form colleges from local authority control, and making them independent corporations with funding from central government, thereby creating the ridiculous situation which Bowden Guy accurately describes. But it's a bit rich of BG to airily say 'as usual with the public sector'. The reality is that we are in this position because 6th form colleges are no longer fully within the public sector. If the Tories had left them alone instead of semi-privatising them, we would not now be in this crazy position, and SMBC would be able to plan and co-ordinate sixth form education in a rational and economical way.
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Ellesmere Port - over £6m spent on new buildings and refurbishment at the College in around 2005. Just six years later, everything demolished and a new College built, funded in the last days of the previous Government. So where was the "planning" in all of that? Dave, do you really have faith that Governments, whether national or local, ever spend OUR money as if it was their own? And Ellesmere Port is but one of numerous examples where massive amounts of public money have been "invested" in new College buildings that have then been demolished, as you will know from your own time in Further Education.
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I think BG has missed my point. I entirely agree that what's going on is utterly wasteful, but this is not because these bodies are in the public sector - on the contrary. The reason is that 6th form colleges were removed from local authority control, and set up to compete with schools not collaborate with them, so there is now no joined-up planning for 6th form education. Or as BG himself puts it:
So where was the "planning" in all of that?
So buildings are built and then stand half empty, because of an ideological obsession with competition by all governments, Tory and Labour, over the past twenty years. If 6th form provision were returned to local authority control, much of this waste could be avoided.
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The point I was trying to make, Dave (but not very well!) is that when politicians make decisions a about education, or anything else, political considerations will always be paramount. In the case of Ellesmere Port the Government KNEW that £6m of public money had already been spent on the campus yet they went ahead and decided to give the College another £60m or so to knock the buildings down and start again. They made that decision, on our behalf. And, guess what, at the 2010 General Election, Chester (where the College was based, and which also had a new college built) had one of the most marginal Labour MPs in the country. And, lest we forget, every penny of that £60m was being BORROWED by Gordon Brown as the nation's finances went done the pan.
I do not share you faith in the innate rationality and good sense of politicians, Dave, especially when they are spreading our money. Guess we'll just have to agree to differ.....
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Where have I ever said I had any faith in the innate rationality and good sense of politicians! No rational or sensible politician would have 'privatised' 6th form colleges as they did in 1993. Just as no rational or sensible politicians would now be spending over a billion pounds of taxpayers' money on setting up 'Free Schools' in areas where there is a surplus of places, whilst other areas have a severe shortage, especially of primary school places. ::)
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I'm not sure about this. It is already a very big school and some studies show that separate six form colleges do better.
My eldest child goes to Marple College and my only complaint is that it has a high number of cancelled lessons. Many children have done well there and 5 went to Ox bridge Unis last year which is the same as a relative's expensive private school. I know my child finds it a better environment than high school as they are treated more as young adults than when they were at MHS.
I worry what would happen to MC if this goes ahead.
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'All we have to do now is abandon the 'Nuhope''
This is unlikely to happen. Staff have sent letters out in support of it and stating their intention to keep it going.
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It is excellent news that Marple Hall is to have a sixth form. They are aiming high and I suspect that they will concentrate on the more "academic" A-levels, leaving the broader range to the Sixth-Form College.
Given that schoolchildren now have to stay on in education or training until 18, more sixth-form places are needed, so I don't think the Marple College will suffer. As has already been posted, their A-level results last year were actually quite good. They take a lot of students from Derbyshire as well as the immediate area.
I suspect that less Marple sixth-formers will go to Aquinas. The main complaint that I hear from those that do is the duration of the bus journey to get there in the morning and it is much easier to walk to a good local school.
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'All we have to do now is abandon the 'Nuhope''
This is unlikely to happen. Staff have sent letters out in support of it and stating their intention to keep it going.
For the time being yes. However 'Nuhope' was very much a Rose Hagen initiative and it is my understanding that there is a difference of opinion about it's continuance between some governors and Senior Teachers. The current Head Teacher of course is comparatively new in post and has yet to assert in full. So we live in hope - real hope that is as opposed to 'Nuhope.'
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According to the college website Marple college are the best performing college in Stockport so not sure why people feel the need for another 6th form.
Best exam results ever - AGAIN!
Students are celebrating their best ever and fifth consecutive record year of outstanding exam results to reinforce the College's position as the best performing College* in Stockport.
With an A Level pass rate of 98.9% the College again beat the national average. 26 A Level subjects achieved a 100% pass rate with 44% of all the A Level grades awarded being A*- B and 71% being A*- C. In total 50 A* and 176 A grades at A Level were achieved. 7 students achieved an incredible 4 grade A’s or better while a further 21 achieved an amazing 3 grade A’s or better.
The results for the College’s wide range of vocational courses were equally impressive with all subjects at Advanced Level 3 and Intermediate Level 2 achieving an unbeatable 100% pass rate. In total 250 Distinction and 288 Merit grades were awarded.
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I wish them well and think that this opportunity will provide a balance. Some students are ready to leave at 16 for the college environment whilst others prefer to stay in the familiar and more structured environment where relationships have already been formed and sustained. I'm sure there is room for a sixth form school and a sixth form college in Marple and maybe this level of competition for students will further improve the quality of teaching across the board. It definitely sounds like the new head and senior management at the high school have a determination to really put the school on the map, which can only be good news for our kids. I wish them every success in their endeavour and applaud them for not resting on their laurels after their recent OFSTED good grade.
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According to the college website Marple college are the best performing college in Stockport so not sure why people feel the need for another 6th form.
It's not just about the results. There a whole raft of reasons which will lead to selection of a particular institute. I had one child go to CaMSFC where she did well enough to go to her chosen university. She selected it because it was very local and had the courses that she wanted. When my second child looked at the available sixth forms for his A Levels we looked at a much wider selection which were CaMSFC, Xaverian in Manchester, Poynton, Stockport and Aquinas.
We had to discount Marple immediately as it had no computing course which is what he wanted (along with maths, further maths and physics). We looked at all the others and Xaverian and Aquinas had by far the most engaged student population when we went to the open days. Both staff and students were ambassadors for their colleges and gave a good impression of life at the college, including the negatives as well as the positives. In the end of the selection we chose Aquinas. It was the closest college with the right courses, the right atmosphere and the best facilities.
It's not just the results, it's the whole package.
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According to the college website Marple college are the best performing college in Stockport
Not according to the DFE website they aren't!
Aquinas
% of students passing 3 A levels: 81%
% of students passing 2 A levels: 91%
% of students passing 1 A level: 96%
CAMSFC
% of students passing 3 A levels: 49%
% of students passing 2 A levels: 58%
% of students passing 1 A level: 66%
Stockport College
% of students passing 3 A levels: 10%
% of students passing 2 A levels: 16%
% of students passing 1 A level: 16%
See http://www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/group.pl?qtype=GR&f=PecOlB1B9M&superview=p16&view=&sort=l_schname&ord=asc
But I'm not knocking CAMSFC. Two of our kids went there, they liked it and did very well. No complaints. And I agree with Howard: It's not just the results, it's the whole package.
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The last time I looked at this comparative data, Cheadle & Marple did better than Aquinas in terms of "value-added" for Level 3 courses even though the overall success rates were higher at Aquinas. As others have stated, there are a range of factors which influence choice at post 16.
However, for C & M to state, on their website, that they are one of the "most successful" sixth form colleges in the country when they have just been issued with an improvement notice from Ofsted is stretching the bounds of the English language somewhat?
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Not according to the DFE website they aren't!
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Depends which set of statistics you choose. :-\
In terms of % of KS5 students achieving A levels, and in terms of Average point score per entry, they beat Aquinas+Stockport.
(http://i.imgur.com/TZaq8zf.png) (http://i.imgur.com/TZaq8zf.png)
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You have to be careful not to compare apples with pears.
Stockport College is not a sixth form college.
Look what CAMSFC have done with their two colleges. We now have Marple Sixth Form College and Cheadle College. Note that only one of them is a sixth form college. Yet they both offer A level courses.
Sixth Form College is not just a name. There are only about 90 in the country.
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Exam results are only one component of the equation.
As we all know If it had been up to CAMSFC they would have had an Asda on Hibbert Lane. It is only due to outside intervention that it didn't happen.
My information is that they are currently engaged with SMBC to put houses on Hibbert Lane and that they are also talking to a private developer to do the same on a section of their site at Cheadle. In addition to this as a previous post has stated they are releasing staff and withdrawing courses. So as far as education is concerned they are not expanding they are not even stabilising they are rescinding.
I may be wrong but it occurs to me for some time now CAMSFC has had the look of a failing business. If it's true it's a shame because I think on the whole it does a good job and such a provision is needed.
If I've noticed this others will have done. In addition to which these others will have inside information which we don't have.
CAMSFC & MHS have common connections and they will surely talk to each other. MHS have been considering sixth form some time and at one time a 'partnership' of some kind was tentatively mentioned. Perhaps this is still possible and is being considered.
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Depends which set of statistics you choose. :-\
In terms of % of KS5 students achieving A levels, and in terms of Average point score per entry, they beat Aquinas+Stockport.
(http://i.imgur.com/TZaq8zf.png) (http://i.imgur.com/TZaq8zf.png)
A classic example of 'lies, damn lies and statistics!'. If you look closely enough at the table in sgk's post, the weasel words 'including equivalences' can be seen. That means that as well as A levels, the figures also include other qualifications classified as NVQ level 3, such as BTEC National Certificates and Diplomas, each of which is deemed to be equivalent to two A levels. So someone holding a BTEC ND in, say Floristry or Beauty Therapy is officially supposed to have a qualification equivalent to two A levels in, say, Physics and Mathematics.........
In my humble opinion, comparing pure A level figures, rather than those which also include 'equivalents', gives a more meaningful comparison. I can confirm that if you exclude the BTECs etc, the A level pass statistics are as shown in my previous post:
Aquinas
% of students passing 3 A levels: 81%
% of students passing 2 A levels: 91%
% of students passing 1 A level: 96%
CAMSFC
% of students passing 3 A levels: 49%
% of students passing 2 A levels: 58%
% of students passing 1 A level: 66%
Stockport College
% of students passing 3 A levels: 10%
% of students passing 2 A levels: 16%
% of students passing 1 A level: 16%
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Information provided by the college at its Open Evening states that the A level pass rate for Marple has been 99.6% for the last two years, thus justifying its claim to be the "best performing college in Stockport".
Presumably Marple Hall School, like Hazel Grove School before it, will aim to cater for only the most able students. This unwelcome return to elitism will no doubt be funded by accepting larger classes in Years 7, 8 and 9.
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Information provided by the college at its Open Evening states that the A level pass rate for Marple has been 99.6% for the last two years
They can say what they like at open evenings but they can't alter the truth, which is as explained above. The 99.6% pass rate is not an A level pass rate, it is a pass rate for A levels and 'equivalent qualifications.' There is an important difference, and it is unfortunate that the college seems to be misleading people.
As for MHS's 'unwelcome return to elitism', I think that's a bit unfair. When 11-16 schools expand into 6th form provision, they understandably focus mainly on teaching A levels, rather than vocational qualifications such as BTECs, because A levels are natural extensions of what the school already does, i.e. GCSEs. The school is therefore likely to have, or to be able to develop, suitable facilities for such teaching, and will almost certainly have existing staff who are qualified to teach through to A level. On the other hand, vocational courses such as BTECs cover a wide range of specialist areas from Aeronautical Engineering through Horse Management to Vehicle Technology, and schools simply don't have either the facilities or the know-how to cover these areas.
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Dave, do really think that, when the sixth form opens at Marple Hall they will not be offering vocational qualifications in Childcare, Health & Social Care, Public & Unformed Services, Sport, Business Studies, Information Technology and Travel & Tourism? All of the areas that require next to no capital investment. I do not believe that the new sixth form will focus solely on A Levels - they very rarely do.
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Have a look at this: http://www.marplehall.stockport.sch.uk/further-information/11171.html
If a new MHS 6th form gets going and proves successful in the first few years, then maybe the school will consider diversifying into other qualifications, if they have the capacity to accommodate more students. But in the first instance, I have little doubt that they will just stick to A levels, as they are themselves suggesting in the above link. To try to do more from the outset would be unwise, IMO.
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I will look forward to reading the sixth form prospectus!
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Information provided by the college at its Open Evening states that the A level pass rate for Marple has been 99.6% for the last two years, ........
I find it unbelievable that A level pass includes grades A to F. When I sat my A levels, many, many years ago, A, B and C were pass grades, D, E and F were fails.
Is this another example of moving the goalposts to show how better education is now? Or am I misunderstanding something?
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I find it unbelievable that A level pass includes grades A to F. When I sat my A levels, many, many years ago, A, B and C were pass grades, D, E and F were fails.
Is this another example of moving the goalposts to show how better education is now? Or am I misunderstanding something?
No, A-F has always been a pass. However, "back in the day" people (be that individuals or institutions) only boasted about A-C grades.
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I took my A Levels in the long, hot summer of 1976, with The Wurzels at Number 1 in the charts. A - E were passes, F was a Fail.
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I took my A Levels in the long, hot summer of 1976, with The Wurzels at Number 1 in the charts. A - E were passes, F was a Fail.
I took mine in 1984. F then was also a fail.
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I think Harry may be mixing up A levels with GCSEs? At GCSE, A* - C are the 'pass' grades. At A level it's been A - F for many years - it was when I did it, and that was back in the sixties. :o
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Maybe I am confusing my O and A levels (not GCSE, they didn't sit them at my school). I stand corrected. Perhaps it was that D to F were just considered a fail. They certainly were not included on a CV. This was back in 1971.
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To clarify, A Levels are graded A-E.
In my experience, Marple Sixth Form is staffed by dedicated and experienced teachers who work hard to help their students do well - and indeed, as the statistics show, they do.
It should be noted that the DFE figures relating to a 49% of students passing 3 A levels reflects the Cheadle & Marple results combined, including the fact that a relatively high proportion of students across the two colleges (particularly at Cheadle) do other things apart from A Levels (these are not included in the figures). Rather than being criticised for offering this range of courses, this should be seen as a positive. Marple Sixth Form continues to offer a huge range of courses, mainly A-Level, but also allows students to combine these with other qualifications if that is appropriate.
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I have always thought Marple is very fortunate to have a sixth form college and I am a strong advocate of them in general. They do a lot with less funding.
Funding per student in sixth form colleges: £4601
Funding per student in secondary school sixth forms: £5620
Funding per student in secondary academies: £7880
Yet a quick search around the internet has shown me that 'success' rates (overall achievement and retention) are on average 84% in sixth form colleges and 69% in school and academy sixth forms. To me there doesn't seem to be any demand for further provision in the area.
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Rather than being criticised for offering this range of courses, this should be seen as a positive.
No-one on this thread has criticised CAMSFC for offering a wide range of courses - as Nic rightly says, that is, of course, a good thing. The only thing the college has been criticised for is misrepresenting the facts by presenting its success rate in ALL KS5/ level 3 qualifications as if it was for A levels alone:Information provided by the college at its Open Evening states that the A level pass rate for Marple has been 99.6% for the last two years
To me there doesn't seem to be any demand for further provision in the area.
That may well be the case, but there is probably a demand for more choice, so that students who are best suited to a school environment can stay at school for their A levels, whilst those who want something different, and the opportunity to take other qualifications apart from A level, can also do so.
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I don't think the College is misrepresenting the facts. On their website, they point out that this year 98.9% of students who did A-levels (rather than vocational qualifications), passed them - see http://www.cmcnet.ac.uk/cmsfc-school-leavers.asp?SLID=70. They also point out that there is 100% pass rate for vocational subjects.
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Although I can see that a sixth form would provide choice, it is quite obvious that many schools are opening sixth forms as a 'badge of honour', and are not thinking about the long term future, as this article from October suggests:
http://schoolsimprovement.net/ministers-urged-to-limit-small-school-sixth-forms-and-focus-on-sixth-form-colleges/
(http://schoolsimprovement.net/ministers-urged-to-limit-small-school-sixth-forms-and-focus-on-sixth-form-colleges/)
School sixth forms also lose more public money through non-completion of courses. In 2011-12 only 84% of Level 3 (typically A level qualifications) were completed. In the same period 94.5% of A levels taken in sixth form colleges were completed.
Students seem to enjoy studying in sixth form colleges more, hence the higher completion rate. I went to one myself (not Marple!) and was very glad to be treated as a young adult rather than being stifled by the same school environment I had been in for five years.
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Not according to the DFE website they aren't!
Aquinas
% of students passing 3 A levels: 81%
% of students passing 2 A levels: 91%
% of students passing 1 A level: 96%
CAMSFC
% of students passing 3 A levels: 49%
% of students passing 2 A levels: 58%
% of students passing 1 A level: 66%
Stockport College
% of students passing 3 A levels: 10%
% of students passing 2 A levels: 16%
% of students passing 1 A level: 16%
Sorry Dave, but the fact that the percentage of students passing any A levels in CAMSFC is 66% simply means ... that only about 66% of students at CAMSFC were actually taking A levels (the national pass rate for A-levels being very nearly 100%): Marple 6th-form College offers more alternative qualifications. A similar comment applies to Stockport College. Aquinas simply expect more of their students to take A-levels, including the rather pointless "General Studies", which bumps up the points-per-student without actually giving them much more education.
Of course, you could choose whichever statistic suits you (as we all have!). In the column giving points per entry (irrespective of whether it includes equivalences) all of the sixth-form providers score very similarly ... with the exception of the highly expensive and elitist (but clearly successful) Stockport Grammar.
Both Marple Hall and CAMSFC have served my children well. The added choice will benefit students whether they prefer to stay at the same school or go into the sixth-form college environment. I suspect it is the pupils (and their parents) who make most of the difference, not the particular institution.
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The Marple Hall School consultation document makes interesting reading witness:
"Q1. Is there a demand for a Sixth Form at Marple Hall School?
A: Anecdotally the anser is yes; many prospective and current parents often ask if there are plans to open a Sixth Form, many parents and students express disappointment that the school does not have a Sixth Form and many returning ex-students report that they would have liked to have stayed gieven a choice. However, we have not conducted a survey of current students or parents-we plan to do so as part of this consultation to measure how viable the proposal would be."
So, actually no empirical evidence of demand or need.
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They can say what they like at open evenings but they can't alter the truth, which is as explained above. The 99.6% pass rate is not an A level pass rate, it is a pass rate for A levels and 'equivalent qualifications.' There is an important difference, and it is unfortunate that the college seems to be misleading people.
Not an attempt to mislead, Dave, 99.6% is the A level pass rate for Marple Sixth Form College as was made clear at the open event. As A level students become self selecting, by virtue of having passed the AS examination, pass rates should be high. It makes one wonder why other local colleges don't do as well therefore.
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I've enjoyed all the figures being thrown around this thread. When I did my A level in Statistics (at Marple Hall, no less) there was a rather wonderful book by Darrell Huff called "How to Lie with Statistics". It was written in 1954 but it's still relevant. I believe it's out of copyright now and on-line versions can be found here https://archive.org/details/HowToLieWithStatistics (https://archive.org/details/HowToLieWithStatistics).
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You're right, 1877, and so is hollins. My mistake in misinterpreting the DFE tables. I apologise for suggesting that the college misrepresented the facts - clearly they did nothing of the sort! Doh! :-[
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No, A-F has always been a pass. However, "back in the day" people (be that individuals or institutions) only boasted about A-C grades.
No. At A level there was A level Pass, O Level pass at A level, and A level Fail.
The O level pass meant you didn't do well enough to pass at A level but not badly enough to fail. (I got one in 1968 so I know! Should have worked harder)
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There is an open meeting being held at the school this evening according to a text message received from the headteacher Mr Barker...
"@ 6.30pm in Bradshaw Hall regarding the proposed 6th form. All welcome to have their questions answered."