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Local Community => Local Issues => Sale of Hibbert Lane Campus to Supermarket Chain => Topic started by: Victor M on July 14, 2012, 12:26:33 PM

Title: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Victor M on July 14, 2012, 12:26:33 PM
At the recent ASDA/CAMSFC presentation event the college principal hinted to a number of people that if the planning permission was not granted then the college would have to review it's position as to whether it was feasible to continue in Marple. What do forum members think the impact of the college closing would be on Marple?
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Come on Nick, get real! on July 14, 2012, 01:26:53 PM
Good thread Victor  ;D

The loss of all the students will have a serious effect on Marples economy.
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Howard on July 14, 2012, 02:33:01 PM
I suppose if you  want to throw out a scenario for discussion, this one is as good as any, but it won't close. There isn't enough capacity in Stockport to take the numbers of students that go to the Marple campus. If the supermarket doesn't happen, and we won't know for several years then they'll find some other way of raising the cash and scale back their plans for development of the site accordingly.
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Dave on July 14, 2012, 03:13:25 PM
It's easy to understand that the college might want people to think that, as a way of persuading the council to grant planning permission. But in reality it's an extremely unlikely scenario, for the reasons put forward by Howard.
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: JMC on July 14, 2012, 10:10:37 PM
I have heard this too but not officially. I worry that if the college closes local children will struggle to find college places and have to travel further distances. But I would worry about the effect on local businesses too if there is an ASDA because wouldn't some students get their lunch there rather than walk on to Gregs etc. Either way there are risks and losers. But Marple cannot stay the same forever, everything changes.
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Iona on July 15, 2012, 05:54:14 AM
I understood that Marple Hall was considering a sixth form but others may know more about this.
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: simonesaffron on July 15, 2012, 06:58:32 AM
We are being dogmatic without foundation if we say that the College would never leave Marple. I agree that it is highly unlikely but we can never say never. If the College did leave town then the implications for some businesses would be very noticeably negative.

There is no doubt in my mind that if the Asda does not happen then the College will have to review its presence in Marple. This is the double conundrum that the decision makers face, No ASDA, no new College. If the Asda fell through then the College (in my opinion) would probably still try to sell the land at Hibbert Lane and finance a "cut your cloth" new College. The question then becomes:  who would buy Hibbert Lane other than a supermarket ? It has been marked by SMBC for housing but housing developers are thin on the ground at the minute. Many of them have gone out of business, those that haven't can't borrow any money and if you can overcome all that, when you build the houses, nobody can get any money to buy them.

Asda have a large expansion programme currently. They will almost certainly have bought Hibbert Lane ..." subject to planning"... they will have many other sites in project and if they get a hard time from SMBC in particular they might just focus on somewhere that will not give them a hard time and leave town. The decision makers at SMBC will be aware of all this and as such the ASDA/C&MSFC project cannot be separated.

It is also worthy of mention to recall...that SMBC can reject the ASDA/C&MSFC planning application because it is against their own planning policy. But that doesn't mean they will or that they would now want to. For it now seems to me that a refusal of the planning application presents a very messy situation for all concerned, and if I can see it then so can SMBC 

In fact who are SMBC in relation to this...who are ACTUALLY the decision makers?
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Maria on July 15, 2012, 10:24:21 AM
Mr Hubert for the college has previously confirmed to me personally that if planning permission is not granted the college will revisit it's proposed revamp and look at the books again.  He confirmed the college had no intention of leaving Marple and I feel this is just another way to try to persuade the planners to let this through.  Mr Hubert confirmed this was simply the quickest and easiest way for the college to do what it wants to do.  Ms Cassidy also confirmed the same to me at the 'consultation'.
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Dave on July 15, 2012, 10:33:34 AM
I feel this is just another way to try to persuade the planners to let this through. 

Me too.  As for Simone's question, the decision makers, AFAIK, are the council's planning committee, but they can be overruled by the Planning Inspectorate if it goes to appeal. 

I agree with much of what Simone writes.  I would just add that the likelihood of there ever being no 16 - 19 educational provision in a town with a population of 23,500 is vanishingly small - if it became a serious risk, I think the EFA and the SMBC Education Service would have to find a solution.  Of course, if Marple Hall became an academy, it could start a sixth form.  But I don't think there is any intention to do that at present, and if they did, it would need serious capital to raise the money to build, and I don't know where that would come from.  Unless they could sell off some land to, er, a supermarket...........    ;)
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: wheels on July 15, 2012, 10:47:00 AM
I really don't know why this is running as a thread and why folks are bothering even to discuss it. First of all the college services not only Marple but also Widely, Breadbury, Offerton, Rommel, parts of Derbyshire and elsewhere. This college is not just for Marple teenagers but for this whole of this side of the town so looking at Marple alone is not what we are about here and that in itself makes the college in Marple much more secure. Further of the two campuses it has by far the greater number of students and is the most viable part of the who institution.

As an aside it (6th form college) a far superiorform of 16-18 education than schools based 6th forms can ever be which was thankfully recognised by Stockport many years ago.
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Victor M on July 15, 2012, 11:22:38 AM
Quote
I really don't know why this is running as a thread
So far I must say I'm very disappointed in how the majority of contributors have responded to this thread. On my original post I wrote
Quote
What do forum members think the impact of the college closing would be on Marple?
Which no one yet has addressed apart from JMC. I'll await your responses and hopefully a constructive debate might ensue.
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: simonesaffron on July 15, 2012, 04:01:48 PM
Quote
I really don't know why this is running as a thread
So far I must say I'm very disappointed in how the majority of contributors have responded to this thread. On my original post I wrote
Quote
What do forum members think the impact of the college closing would be on Marple?
Which no one yet has addressed apart from JMC. I'll await your responses and hopefully a constructive debate might ensue.

Victor, with respect old chap we have addressed tne question.if the College closed it would have a negative impact on sustaining some of the businesses in Marple. In addition to that we wouldn't see hundreds of young students about the town. What more do you want we can't keep stating and restating the obvious. We're boring but we're not that boring apart from that we'll have Wheels's blood pressure through the roof. 
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: wheels on July 15, 2012, 05:04:03 PM
Its OK I have just got back from a ride round Erwood Reservoir so my blood pressure is well down.
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Dave on July 15, 2012, 05:09:13 PM
Good news, wheels!    The other thing to add to Simone's point is that it's a completely hypothetical question - it is so unlikely that it's not worth talking about. (Although I must admit that if all discussion of hypothetical questions were deleted from this forum, there wouldn't be much left on it  :D
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Victor M on July 15, 2012, 08:08:33 PM
Contrary to opinion on this forum I think that the closure of the college could have a neutral/positive impact on Marple as long as it was managed in a controlled manner. Unlike other members of this forum I will now support this view point as one does in a DEBATE.

EDUCATION,
Currently all schools and colleges are having to cope with a decline in students because of the falling birth rate between 1992 - 2006, if CAMSFC closed then Marple Hall school (MHS) would probably open up a 6th Form. They would probably need to go for Academy status as that is the only way you can get funding for expansion these days. 6th Forms have already been established at New Mills & Poynton and very soon at Hazel Grove. Granted the subjects offerred would be a lot narrower than CAMSFC and they would probably find themselves concentrating on core mainstream subjects (History, English, Art, Geography etc.) and only offerring A levels. Those students who wanted BTEC level courses would probably have to travel to Stockport or Manchester College, and MHS would probably only be able to cater for students who were already attending the school. Students who currently travel from Derbyshire could easily manage to travel to Stockport or Buxton.

LAND
The college's sites on Buxton Lane & Hibbert lane would be sold for housing. However because of the size of the developments these, by law, would have to be a mix that would include Social Housing and Affordable Housing, both of which Marple is desperately short of. These new houses would increase the amount of daily traffic but probably not any more, and maybe less, than the proposed ASDA/Walmart Store.

Local Economy
Closure of the college would result in a reduction in jobs for some local people, however the 6th Form at MHS would need some extra staff, but there still would be an overall reduction. However the increase in population caused by the new houses would bring in more money into the local businesses, who would need to take on extra staff. So the negative impact on jobs of the college closing would probably be less/the same as the impact of a ASDA/Walmart being built.


I know a lot of you will not agree with these views but please if you think my assumptions are flawed at least try and explain why you think that.
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: wheels on July 15, 2012, 08:13:46 PM
But it does not matter if your assumptions are flawed or not your asking us to discuss something that's not going to happen so I am not sure why you cant to keep pushing this.
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Duke Fame on July 15, 2012, 08:39:11 PM
It's no doubt a ruse go get public opinion on side. The impact on Marple? Well the pubs will not to so much lunchtime trade & sandwich shops will suffer a bit.

As for the kids, well if they have to go to Manchester for FE it will broaden the mind a little and no problem.
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: amazon on July 15, 2012, 08:42:25 PM
Contrary to opinion on this forum I think that the closure of the college could have a neutral/positive impact on Marple as long as it was managed in a controlled manner. Unlike other members of this forum I will now support this view point as one does in a DEBATE.

EDUCATION,
Currently all schools and colleges are having to cope with a decline in students because of the falling birth rate between 1992 - 2006, if CAMSFC closed then Marple Hall school (MHS) would probably open up a 6th Form. They would probably need to go for Academy status as that is the only way you can get funding for expansion these days. 6th Forms have already been established at New Mills & Poynton and very soon at Hazel Grove. Granted the subjects offerred would be a lot narrower than CAMSFC and they would probably find themselves concentrating on core mainstream subjects (History, English, Art, Geography etc.) and only offerring A levels. Those students who wanted BTEC level courses would probably have to travel to Stockport or Manchester College, and MHS would probably only be able to cater for students who were already attending the school. Students who currently travel from Derbyshire could easily manage to travel to Stockport or Buxton.

LAND
The college's sites on Buxton Lane & Hibbert lane would be sold for housing. However because of the size of the developments these, by law, would have to be a mix that would include Social Housing and Affordable Housing, both of which Marple is desperately short of. These new houses would increase the amount of daily traffic but probably not any more, and maybe less, than the proposed ASDA/Walmart Store.

Local Economy
Closure of the college would result in a reduction in jobs for some local people, however the 6th Form at MHS would need some extra staff, but there still would be an overall reduction. However the increase in population caused by the new houses would bring in more money into the local businesses, who would need to take on extra staff. So the negative impact on jobs of the college closing would probably be less/the same as the impact of a ASDA/Walmart being built.


I know a lot of you will not agree with these views but please if you think my assumptions are flawed at least try and explain why you think that.

Excellent post it's a bit like swings and roundabouts .
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: JMC on July 16, 2012, 09:41:58 AM
I am not sure if Marple Hall would have a sixth form. They already have gained many students from the closure of Offerton and the catchment has been extended to cover Offerton. When it used to have a sixth form, the Ridge was also a secondary so I don't think there would have been so many pupils as now. It is already a very big school.
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Dave on July 16, 2012, 10:13:28 AM
if CAMSFC closed then Marple Hall school (MHS) would probably open up a 6th Form. They would probably need to go for Academy status as that is the only way you can get funding for expansion these days. 6th Forms have already been established at New Mills & Poynton and very soon at Hazel Grove.

Well, New Mills and Poynton are in Derbyshire and East Cheshire respectively, where school sixth forms are the system, as opposed to 6th form colleges as in Stockport.  So at those schools, the sixth forms have always been there.  Hazel Grove High School has recently converted to an Academy, so they could develop a sixth form if they wanted to, and if they can get the capital funding.  And the same would apply to Marple Hall, if they decided to convert - which as yet they have not.

I used to be pessimistic about the prospects for MHS to raise sufficient capital to accommodate enough sixth formers to replace camsfc, but it occurs to me that it might just be possible after all, if (and it's a big if) agreement could be reached between the EFA, camsfc governors, and the governors/trustees of a new MHS Academy.  Crucial to this is the fact that the EFA is the funding body for both sixth-form colleges and Academies.  I can see two possible scenarios (but others may see more):

1.  Camsfc would sell off both the Hibbert Lane and Buxton Lane sites, and consolidate all of its operation at Cheadle.  Some or all of the receipts for the disposal of the two Marple sites would revert to the EFA, who would use them to fund (or part-fund) a newly built sixth form facility at MHS Academy.  Or....
2.  MHS Academy would take over camsfc's Marple operation as it stands, and then gradually develop it, perhaps by selling off one or both of the college's Marple sites, and using the receipts to build a sixth-form facility on the current MHS campus.

Simple isn't it....... But it would have to be brokered by the EFA, and it would depend on the willingness of the camsfc governors to give up some assets, so don't hold your breath!  
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Duke Fame on July 17, 2012, 10:05:37 PM
your scenario assumes the college cannot continue as it is. Surely this isn't the case and if so, it's not down to a marginally higher heating bill.
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Victor M on July 18, 2012, 08:13:23 AM
Quote
your scenario assumes the college cannot continue as it is. Surely this isn't the case and if so, it's not down to a marginally higher heating bill.

Sorry Duke but I don't understand the post, when did the heating bill get mentioned!
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Dave on July 18, 2012, 10:02:29 AM
your scenario assumes the college cannot continue as it is.

Indeed.  How long do you think it could continue as it is, Duke?  Ten years? Yes.  Twenty years? Possibly.   Thirty years? Forget it, with running costs continuously creeping up and applications falling as students (and the best teaching staff) are attracted to other colleges with better facilities. Think of it like any business (which is in effect what colleges are nowadays, except that they are not for profit).    Increasing costs and declining income - no competent management would allow such a situation to occur. 
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Duke Fame on July 19, 2012, 07:43:48 AM
Quote
your scenario assumes the college cannot continue as it is. Surely this isn't the case and if so, it's not down to a marginally higher heating bill.

Sorry Duke but I don't understand the post, when did the heating bill get mentioned!

The core of Dave's argument is the buildings at Hibbert la are inefficient as they are old and not conducive for learning.

It doesn't seem to hinder Oxford or Cambridge!
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: tricky on July 19, 2012, 07:50:32 AM
Quote from: Duke Fame link=topic=4499.msg25788#msg25788date=1342680228

It doesn't seem to hinder Oxford or Cambridge!

Oh dear..
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Dave on July 19, 2012, 09:14:04 AM
The core of Dave's argument is the buildings at Hibbert la are inefficient as they are old and not conducive for learning. It doesn't seem to hinder Oxford or Cambridge!

The problem with such an epic topic as this is that the same old arguments keep coming round over and over again.   ::)  Here's a reminder of what I posted last time Duke came up with this one:
The colleges of Oxford and Cambridge are some of the wealthiest organisations in the UK.  Trinity College Cambridge alone has a financial endowment of £700 million.  It owns the port of Felixstowe, Cambridge Science Park, and part of the O2 Arena.   Like many other Oxbridge colleges it occupies Grade 1 listed buldings of enormous historical and architectural importance.  And it has more than enough money to maintain them in the manner to which they have become accustomed over the centuries.

Oxbridge colleges were constructed for the purpose for which they are still used - they are not conversions.  They have cellars full of good port and fine wines.  Liveried flunkies wait on dons and students hand and foot.   It's a totally different world from a local sixth form college.  So can we please move on from this pointless comparison now? 
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: the rover on July 19, 2012, 09:38:14 AM
Found out yesterday that all children will have to continue in some form of further education until they are either 17 years old or 18 years old, this comes into effect in 2013 & 2015. See the 'Stockport Review'. If the college cannot cope with all of the additional students then what will they do? Not all 16-18 year olds will be able to afford to pay to travel out of Marple for this further education. There is further information on the SMBC website.
Marple Hall School would not be able to cope with keeping pupils until they are 18 years old unless a huge amount of money was made available to build additional classrooms, employ additional teachers etc etc.
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Dave on July 19, 2012, 10:01:13 AM
I suspect that what the rover describes won't have a huge impact on camsfc.  Nationally, 87% of 17 year-old are already staying on in education or training (see http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/f/facts%20for%20las%20-%20jan%202012.pdf)  and round here I suspect the figure may be even higher.  And it doesn't mean everyone aged 17 has to attend school or college - 'training' also include apprenticeships, and part-time training if someone has a full-time job.  So it's probably not a major issue.
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: wheels on July 19, 2012, 10:10:38 AM
Found out yesterday that all children will have to continue in some form of further education until they are either 17 years old or 18 years old, this comes into effect in 2013 & 2015. See the 'Stockport Review'. If the college cannot cope with all of the additional students then what will they do? Not all 16-18 year olds will be able to afford to pay to travel out of Marple for this further education. There is further information on the SMBC website.
Marple Hall School would not be able to cope with keeping pupils until they are 18 years old unless a huge amount of money was made available to build additional classrooms, employ additional teachers etc etc.

Thid is addressing the NEETs really and will have virtually no impact on Marple
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: amazon on July 19, 2012, 01:52:54 PM
I suspect that what the rover describes won't have a huge impact on camsfc.  Nationally, 87% of 17 year-old are already staying on in education or training (see http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/f/facts%20for%20las%20-%20jan%202012.pdf)  and round here I suspect the figure may be even higher.  And it doesn't mean everyone aged 17 has to attend school or college - 'training' also include apprenticeships, and part-time training if someone has a full-time job.  So it's probably not a major issue.

Reported in Stockport express today the sainsburys have pulled out of building ther new store on port wood
As being to expensive also travel lodge not now building near the station 'surprised about sainsburys but not travel lodge .
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Duke Fame on July 19, 2012, 02:39:18 PM
The core of Dave's argument is the buildings at Hibbert la are inefficient as they are old and not conducive for learning. It doesn't seem to hinder Oxford or Cambridge!

The problem with such an epic topic as this is that the same old arguments keep coming round over and over again.   ::)  Here's a reminder of what I posted last time Duke came up with this one:
The colleges of Oxford and Cambridge are some of the wealthiest organisations in the UK.  Trinity College Cambridge alone has a financial endowment of £700 million.  It owns the port of Felixstowe, Cambridge Science Park, and part of the O2 Arena.   Like many other Oxbridge colleges it occupies Grade 1 listed buldings of enormous historical and architectural importance.  And it has more than enough money to maintain them in the manner to which they have become accustomed over the centuries.

Oxbridge colleges were constructed for the purpose for which they are still used - they are not conversions.  They have cellars full of good port and fine wines.  Liveried flunkies wait on dons and students hand and foot.   It's a totally different world from a local sixth form college.  So can we please move on from this pointless comparison now? 

I was referring (as you possibly know) to the ability to teach / learn.

I agree that the college must anticipate it's income and budget accordingly but the ability to attract students has very little to do with the buildings, it's the ability to improve the kids, get them to where they want to go. If the college is better at doing this, they will not see dwindling numbers of students.

The college is rarely open late (Wednesdays only?) it seems there is inefficient use of hte buildings rather than inefficient buildings.
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Dave on July 19, 2012, 03:16:10 PM
I was referring (as you possibly know) to the ability to teach / learn.

Yes, I'm aware of that.  But you can't provide teaching and learning if you've gone bust.  And eventually that is what will happen if he college does nothing about its buildings.   

I agree that the college must anticipate it's income and budget accordingly but the ability to attract students has very little to do with the buildings,

I may have mentioned before that I have had experience of managing a college.  When we moved from poor quality converted buildings to new purpose built ones, the number of applicants increased considerably.  We also found it much easier to attract the best teaching staff - people don't like working in grotty conditions.   
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: Dave on July 19, 2012, 03:18:10 PM
Reported in Stockport express today the sainsburys have pulled out of building ther new store on port wood
As being to expensive also travel lodge not now building near the station 'surprised about sainsburys but not travel lodge .

Er, what's this got to do with the impact on Marple of the college closing? 
Title: Re: Impact on Marple of the College Closing
Post by: amazon on July 19, 2012, 07:05:06 PM
Reported in Stockport express today the sainsburys have pulled out of building ther new store on port wood
As being to expensive also travel lodge not now building near the station 'surprised about sainsburys but not travel lodge .

Er, what's this got to do with the impact on Marple of the college closing? 

Nothing just thought I'd mention it .