Rose Hill/ Marple Rail Electrification & Tram Trains

[Melancholyflower]

I agree that the lack of a rail route to Stockport is a big drawback, and a huge factor in the awful traffic problems in and around Marple. Interesting re the alternative route via brinnington, is it really viable?? Has there been a serious feasibility study on it?

[wheels]

Existing track to Lingard Lane/M60 bridge, drop onto Lingard Lane, tram lines on Brinnington Road past Brinnington shops, drop onto the old railway line at Brinnington Rise Jack and Jill, descend into Tame Valley cross to northern side of river at Tiviot Way to bottom of Lancashire Hill then along Princes Street into Mersey Square. Bingo!

See easy 😊

[marplerambler]

Oops! Just remembered that the old Brinnington shops are no longer there but you get the idea. The line of Brinnington Road has not changed and is fairly wide. One other thing - the trams feeding onto Lancashire Hill close to the old Nicholsons Arms would use the existing road bridge to get back over M60.

[marplerambler]

how do you provide link to Stockport from Marple .dont say tiviot dale that's gone .

Existing track to Lingard Lane/M60 bridge, drop onto Lingard Lane, tram lines on Brinnington Road past Brinnington shops, drop onto the old railway line at Brinnington Rise Jack and Jill, descend into Tame Valley cross to northern side of river at Tiviot Way to bottom of Lancashire Hill then along Princes Street into Mersey Square. Bingo!

[marplerambler]

I'd be interested to hear from the 'very great number of people' you speak of, Condate. From my experience and that of hundreds of others who commute into Manchester city centre from Marple 5 days a week, a link to tram stops further into the city could only be regarded as a boon.

I am one of the 'very great number of people' who is quite happy with a train to Piccadilly. I have commuted to Piccadilly station in the past to work over near to Salford station and at first sight the distance may seem daunting but in reality if you are reasonably fit it doesn't take all that long to walk across town: the Centreline buses don't take much longer than the tram anyway! Friends who live on both the Manchester - Altrincham and also the Manchester - Bury line always regarded the change to tram as being a retrograde action. I am not in the least concerned about having to change at Piccadilly but what does concern me is the faffing around the tram will do to get into the Piccadilly bowels platforms. If the line is to be electrified, electrify using standard rolling stock: the line is already electrified to the Hyde Junction anyway. The almost seat-less cattle trucks called trams should be used for routes which are not currently served by a train service. I know that the tram services may often be more frequent but I am happy with a train every 30 minutes if I know its times of departure: the tram times seem to be a much more arbitrary 'every twelve minutes' but the problem, even before the work on the tram lines in Central Manchester, was that because they were not scheduled to run to a specified timetable was that they seemed to run as and when they felt like it.  The Eccles and Wythenshawe trams are a substantial improvement upon the previously lengthy and time-consuming bus journeys into Manchester - I am sure that there are many places which do not have a railway station which would benefit from connection to the tram network more than Marple.

Both Marple and Rose Hill stations are well away from the centre of Marple's population anyway so if the line is to be converted to tram then why not make a proper job of it and build tram lines from Rose Hill to Marple centre sharing the road with the traffic along Buxton Lane and Hibbert Lane? Such a solution would bring Hawk Green a lot nearer to public transport in the evenings and on Sundays.

[amazon]

First of all thanks hatter for an excellent report.

I certainly have some concerns re Train/Trams based mainly on the possibility that we might not be able to take cycles on them but also about the increased journey times. Equally I am aware that might be a great boost for daily commuters and those who actually like going to the city. Thankfully I will never be on of the former again. But I do recognise that hundreds of Marple residents do like going to the city for a whole range of activities.

I do think however that Marple has a much more pressing transport issue and that's it's lack of a rail link to Stockport.  Such a link could be easily and cheaply provided it would improve the quality of life of many residents and provide an economic boost to both town. Yet there is a real lack of will to address this.

how do you provide link to Stockport from Marple .dont say tiviot dale that's gone .

[wheels]

First of all thanks hatter for an excellent report.

I certainly have some concerns re Train/Trams based mainly on the possibility that we might not be able to take cycles on them but also about the increased journey times. Equally I am aware that might be a great boost for daily commuters and those who actually like going to the city. Thankfully I will never be on of the former again. But I do recognise that hundreds of Marple residents do like going to the city for a whole range of activities.

I do think however that Marple has a much more pressing transport issue and that's it's lack of a rail link to Stockport.  Such a link could be easily and cheaply provided it would improve the quality of life of many residents and provide an economic boost to both town. Yet there is a real lack of will to address this.

[Melancholyflower]

Why would I want to go to the middle of the city? For me and for a very great number of people, the place I want to go is Piccadilly station, to get a train elsewhere. I almost never want to go to Manchester itself. Personally, I always think of converting perfectly good lines into trams or tram-trains as a downgrade.

I'd be interested to hear from the 'very great number of people' you speak of, Condate. From my experience and that of hundreds of others who commute into Manchester city centre from Marple 5 days a week, a link to tram stops further into the city could only be regarded as a boon.

[Condate]

To that I would add the much greater convenience of being able to get on a tram-train at Rose Hill or Romiley and get off in the middle of the city - i.e. where you actually want to go, as opposed to Piccadilly.

Why would I want to go to the middle of the city? For me and for a very great number of people, the place I want to go is Piccadilly station, to get a train elsewhere. I almost never want to go to Manchester itself. Personally, I always think of converting perfectly good lines into trams or tram-trains as a downgrade.

[hatter76]

Thanks for your post Dave

I take your point about being dropped off in the city centre.

I would like to come back on capacity. Done some research a 3 car electric train (323) has 284 seats. a 2 car Metrolink tram has 60 (4car 120). So if you run 3 trains an hour which is typical in the current peak period = 852 seats, if you run a 4 car tram x5 per hour = 600 seats.

If you consider Rose Hill usage is growing at 16% per year I am not convinced that Tram Trains are going to provide the capacity needed.

Also, you could probably run more trains than 3 per hour and increase up to 4 cars if there was demand.

[Dave]

An interesting and thoughtful post - thanks hatter.

It will be disappointing if our line is not electrified, but personally I'd regard the introduction of tram trains as a significant benefit, on the whole.   Hatter lists three benefits:   

To offer some balance there are 3 main benefits
1 Every 12 minutes
2 Do not require a public subsidy
3 Electric & modern

To that I would add the much greater convenience of being able to get on a tram-train at Rose Hill or Romiley and get off in the middle of the city - i.e. where you actually want to go, as opposed to Piccadilly.  Also, the smaller capacity of a two-car tram-train would be offset by the greater frequency, and you can always hope for double (four-car) units as seen on existing Metrolink routes at times. 

The line as far as Hazel Grove is already electrified, of course, and it would make a lot of sense for that electrification to be continued via Chinley and Edale to Sheffield, so that electric Transpennine Express trains can use it. 

[hatter76]

A recent report from by MPs has carried out Benefit Cost Ratios (BCR) for the next phases of rail electrification in the North.

The Marple & Rose Hill lines (Chinley via Bredbury & Hyde) were included with the Hazel Grove- Sheffield line. The BCR was 79/100, the cut off for inclusion into the next phase is 80/100. This is mainly due to higher costs of wiring 3 of the longest tunnels in the network. Other lesser used routes such as Hazel Grove to Buxton scored higher as the engineering costs were less. (I am not against this line being electrified but using it as a comparison).

I have a couple of points to make about this

1 Why hasn’t separate analysis been carried out between the different routes such as Hazel Grove- Sheffield, Rose Hill via Hyde and New Mills/Chinley via Bredbury?

2 The reason the BCR is low is due to geography and not economic demand. What have local MPs and councillors done to put the case forward for electrifying local lines in the next funding phase?

Tram Trains
At the last election both the Lib Dems & Conservative candidates stated that they favoured Tram Trains for Marple.

I am not convinced.

There have been several statements of intentions but the plans as far as I am aware are still at a development stage.

This is what is being developed as far as I can gather along with my thoughts (very happy to take corrections).

1 Conversion of Rose Hill via Bredbury route to tram trains, possibly DC Electric which is not the same as the national AC electric. This is important, if the route from Marple Wharf Jnc to Romiley Jnc is DC electric it would not be compatible with the future Manchester – Sheffield electrification and could prevent electric trains running through Marple to Sheffield.

It is possible to have duel AC/DC trams which I think would be a better option. This would mean that the Rose Hill via Bredbury route would be AC electric with the tram train switching to DC power when it joins the Metrolink system.

2 The Bredbury tram trains will not join at Ashburys, but move into street running mode through to Manchester. This could lead to longer journey times than the present rail system.

3 Stations would leave Network Rail and become unstaffed Metrolink stations. This prevents through ticketing to the wider network (outside GM) and the purchase of cheap through tickets online.

4 Tram trains are only driver operated with no second staff member (guard) as with the trains. This hasn’t been clarified.

5 Connection times at Manchester will be longer as you will probably have to walk up the escalators to gain access to main station. At present I can connect from platform 1-14 in less than 2 minutes.

6 Less seats per tram train than with a conventional train. Currently a 2 car Sprinter has 151 seats, a tram has much less leading to more people standing.

7 Unable to travel with dogs and bikes

To offer some balance there are 3 main benefits
1 Every 12 minutes
2 Do not require a public subsidy
3 Electric & modern