Rose Hill/ Marple Rail Electrification & Tram Trains

[Duke Fame]

Indeed. Even allowing for inflation and rising wages, it's vastly more expensive to travel to London on many trains than it was in BR days. Furthermore, Virgin trains have ceases stopping at quite a few stations. Although I now live in Marple, as my username suggests I used to live in Northwich. Intercity trains in BR days used to stop at Hartford station, on the Liverpool - Euston route. These trains were well used, including by a few commuters to London. The Virgin trains don't stop there any more.

It's a pity the services are rather poor these days; at least on some lines. I prefer the idea of the railways being run by private companies rather than the government (although they had a lot of regulation of fares and conditions etc even in Victorian days). However, some at least of the companies don't seem to be making a particularly good job of it.

The prices have gone up but really not by as much as you may think:



Personally i think the TOCS should have more flexibility in changing the routes. On the East Coast the trains run to the timetable of the days of the Mallard and silver streaks and we still have a train going to Newcastle on the hour and 1/2 hour. At five past & 35mins, there are trains to Leeds, all go through Doncaster. GNER wanted to change so there would be trains every 10-15 mins which allowed North East passengers meet trains at Doncaster but was blocked. IF they owned the lines, this could be changed.

as for Expresses stopping at the likes of Hartford, I think most passengers would be frustrated to see so many stops adding time to the journey. Far better to have regular shuttle services to Mainline hubs.

[Condate]

The union issues are well argued, but Mr Branson's trains are also very expensive to the people who need to use them the most. £160 a pop to Euston at peak times. I'll bet that's some way above inflationary rises since BR days, and few can argue that it represents value for money.

Indeed. Even allowing for inflation and rising wages, it's vastly more expensive to travel to London on many trains than it was in BR days. Furthermore, Virgin trains have ceases stopping at quite a few stations. Although I now live in Marple, as my username suggests I used to live in Northwich. Intercity trains in BR days used to stop at Hartford station, on the Liverpool - Euston route. These trains were well used, including by a few commuters to London. The Virgin trains don't stop there any more.

It's a pity the services are rather poor these days; at least on some lines. I prefer the idea of the railways being run by private companies rather than the government (although they had a lot of regulation of fares and conditions etc even in Victorian days). However, some at least of the companies don't seem to be making a particularly good job of it.

[Melancholyflower]

Gosh, no!!

We had proper innovation when rail lines were owned by the train companies.

I think your assumption of a monopoly is wrong, we choose transport now on the basis of road / rail/ bus / air it's not the monopoly of 1945.

Mr Branson's trains are fast & punctual and he runs more of them than the BR days. When I book, I also know it will turn up, I know that the train will run and not be held to ransom because of some irrelevant dispute that a station clerk has in Aberdeen. I also know that the divers will not go on strike because the train runs at more than 90mph nor will the driver insist that he can only drive the train with a co-diver and a relief team which dates back to a union arrangement from the days of steam.

The union issues are well argued, but Mr Branson's trains are also very expensive to the people who need to use them the most. £160 a pop to Euston at peak times. I'll bet that's some way above inflationary rises since BR days, and few can argue that it represents value for money.

[corium]

Mr Branson's trains are fast & punctual and he runs more of them than the BR days. When I book, I also know it will turn up,

Obviously you have more luck with Virgin trains than when I'm using them! if it's not mine that's cancelled there is all to often an announcement that one of the others is.

[Duke Fame]

Piccadilly congestion certainly seems to be an obstacle. But why hasn't the extra capacity at the old Mayfield site been considered?

Mayfield is being taken down as we speak but it would not solve the bottleneck getting in and out. I agree with Dave, utilising the tram network solves this relatively cheaply by removing local traffic.

[Duke Fame]

I have never previously doubted Richard Branson's brilliant business acumen but I really do wonder if splitting Network Rail into regional units offers any kind of a future to the train traveller or the taxpayer. Beeching attempted to turn Britain into a nation dependant upon motorways and roads, Thatcher attempted to convert the rail system into a cash cow for the train operating companies.

There is only one way forward for our public transport system and that is to return trains and bus services to public ownership!

Gosh, no!!

We had proper innovation when rail lines were owned by the train companies.

I think your assumption of a monopoly is wrong, we choose transport now on the basis of road / rail/ bus / air it's not the monopoly of 1945.

Mr Branson's trains are fast & punctual and he runs more of them than the BR days. When I book, I also know it will turn up, I know that the train will run and not be held to ransom because of some irrelevant dispute that a station clerk has in Aberdeen. I also know that the divers will not go on strike because the train runs at more than 90mph nor will the driver insist that he can only drive the train with a co-diver and a relief team which dates back to a union arrangement from the days of steam.

[Duke Fame]

On a related thought…

Could Rose Hill be served by a shuttle from Romiley that met every train that called at Romiley?   This would then allow the tram etc, just to go to Marple and for both stations to have a full service?

I don't know if there is space at Romiley for a platform etc, or for sidings so the new train did not have to take up a current platform while waiting to do the return to Rosehill.

It would be far more sensible to simply have a shuttle bus and just use the main Marple station, having two stations in Marple seems to me a bit of an indulgence

[Dave]

Traffic congestion around Rose Hill has very little to do with Rose Hill station.

Indeed - but it certainly will if Rose Hill becomes the tram-train terminus! 

If the train from Marple, become a “none stopping” service, so it was a lot faster than the tram, that would stop most users of Marple station defecting.

Good point, although what I suspect what will actually happen is that people from Marple and beyond will have a choice: commuters and shoppers (and in the evening, clubbers) heading for somewhere in the city centre will be able to get off at Romiley and wait on the same platform for a tram-train from Rose Hill, while passengers heading for Piccadilly to take another train to somewhere else will stay on the train and get to Piccadilly more quickly.   

I have looked at Google earth and I am not convinced that they will find a traffic free route off the Bredbury line to underneath Manchester Picc.. You could end up on a tram train coming off at Belle Vue and going down the bus lanes on the Hyde Road, stopping at lights and waiting at bus stops etc. If this is the case it will not be a fast tram train service!

My understanding is that the new line taking the tram-trains down to the Piccadilly undercroft will be built immediately to the right (north east) side of the existing approach to Piccadilly platforms 1 and 2, where the current Network Rail car parking and portakabins are. 

What I am arguing is by electrifying Hyde to New Mills which is not a great distance and with no significant engineering issues you will provide a decent service to both Marple routes. This should be looked at as one scheme! The funding bid to the government should be for both routes. 2 systems but 1 bid. But no one appears to be pushing for it.

Hear hear.  Who should be pushing for it?  The Friends of Marple Station seem to be mainly interested in cosmetic improvements to the station, and in celebrating its anniversary, not in improving the service.  What about the Goyt Valley Rail Users Association.  Does it still exist?  The chairman used to be (ex-councillor) Craig Wright, as I recall.  Perhaps they should be encouraged to take up this issue?

[hatter76]

How has the problem of the express trains overtaking the stopping trains been alleviated?

Not 100% sure maybe others can answer?
In route utilisation document for 4 fast trains an hour Man-Sheff.
I guess they have passing loops It is all double track except for a small section at Dore

[marplerambler]

Marple is a through route Manchester-Sheffield. It carries significant freight, local services and increasingly in the future long distance Trans Pennine expresses as the extra services planned for Nottingham & Doncaster will probably be routed this way as there are no paths at Stockport, (they are upgrading the Manchester- Sheffield line at the moment to allow for 4 fast trains an hour). A heavy rail line to Manchester from Marple will have to be maintained. You cant have freight and express paths behind a tram that keeps stopping. As they are every 12 minutes there would be no gaps to allow for fast paths. With a 20 or 30 minute service pattern there are sufficient gaps behind a stopping train for faster services.

Interesting that through express trains from Manchester to Sheffield via Marple should be suggested. Prior to the construction of the Hazel Grove link allowing the Sheffield trains to come from Manchester via Hazel Grove the line from Manchester to Sheffield via Marple was, to the best of my knowledge, single track in each direction with no passing places. If you travelled to Sheffield from Marple in the 1980s, the stopping train would terminate at New Mills Central and pull into the old tunnel, the stopping train from Sheffield arrived on the opposite platform at about the same time then pulled into a siding to leave the tracks through New Mills Central empty. Express trains in each direction would then pass through. The stopping train which had come from Sheffield would then transport you to Sheffield and the stopping train you arrived on would return to Manchester. How has the problem of the express trains overtaking the stopping trains been alleviated?

[hatter76]

Regarding parking at Rose Hill, this could be a massive issue! It depends on the level of service left at Marple as to how many will switch. If large numbers do come over they may have to build a multi storey car park and reinstate the long gone second platform.

Marple is a through route Manchester-Sheffield. It carries significant freight, local services and increasingly in the future long distance Trans Pennine expresses as the extra services planned for Nottingham & Doncaster will probably be routed this way as there are no paths at Stockport, (they are upgrading the Manchester- Sheffield line at the moment to allow for 4 fast trains an hour). A heavy rail line to Manchester from Marple will have to be maintained. You cant have freight and express paths behind a tram that keeps stopping. As they are every 12 minutes there would be no gaps to allow for fast paths. With a 20 or 30 minute service pattern there are sufficient gaps behind a stopping train for faster services.

Assuming that tram trains are given the go ahead for Rose Hill via Bedbury the remaining New Mills/ Marple services will be routed via the Hyde line which will be heavy rail. The local services left on the Marple line will probably be a mix of all station stoppers from New Mills and an occasional limited stop from Sheffield.

What I am arguing is by electrifying Hyde to New Mills which is not a great distance and with no significant engineering issues you will provide a decent service to both Marple routes. This should be looked at as one scheme! The funding bid to the government should be for both routes. 2 systems but 1 bid. But no one appears to be pushing for it.

Also, I have looked at Google earth and I am not convinced that they will find a traffic free route off the Bredbury line to underneath Manchester Picc.. You could end up on a tram train coming off at Belle Vue and going down the bus lanes on the Hyde Road, stopping at lights and waiting at bus stops etc. If this is the case it will not be a fast tram train service!

[marplerambler]

Traffic congestion around Rose Hill has very little to do with Rose Hill station. Heading towards Stockport it is due to the tail back from the Dan Bank traffic lights. Heading towards Marple it is the queue from the lights at the Station Rd/ Stockport Road (Co-op petrol station) lights. Not all that much traffic comes in or out of the Rose Hill car park or from the tip or Middlewood Way parking. The pedestrian crossing lights enable right-turning traffic from Railway Road to nudge its way out.

Even if there were to be a tram line from Rose Hill to Manchester (or even Stockport) I think that most car users who are coming from the Marple Bridge or from the Strines direction to Marple station would continue to use Marple to utilise the large car park and to avoid the Stockport Road crawl through Marple centre. The big passenger shift would be of passengers who walk to the station who are roughly equidistant from both stations. Marple trains to Manchester are much preferable to Rose Hill trains because they are quicker and because they are more frequent (my particular personal gripe is that I live in Rose Hill and if I miss the 1720 from Piccadilly I have to wait until 1805 or catch the 1732 to Marple and then have a  25 minute walk). A more frequent service from Rose Hill (especially if it went through Bredbury) could make Rose Hill more attractive to many people who currently use Marple station.

As for your final point WHY? should the cost of linking Rose Hill to the Stepping Hill/Stockport line be considered to be too expensive when millions of pounds are being spent on the SEMMS link? Every motorist travelling to Stockport has to park his car somewhere - would it not be better for all, both the existing motorists and the passenger if money were to be invested in a new train/tram service which would mean that there would be no car to park in Stockport?

[ringi]

The traffic congestion around Rose Hill, coursed by users of Rose Hill station would not be hard to sort out by making a few changes to road junctions.    Unless the car park is expanded greatly the issue will be parking, and the lack of parking will limit the congestion.
However I rather expect that the station does not contribute much to the congestion anyway.

If the train from Marple, become a “none stopping” service, so it was a lot faster than the tram, that would stop most users of Marple station defecting.

Shame it will be too costly to take a tram/train var Hawk Green to High Lane, then onto the line into Stockport with a new station at Stepping Hill.

[marplerambler]

AFAIK the only reason for the tram-trains serving Rose Hill rather than Marple is the cost of electrifying the Marple North Tunnel.  But there are real drawbacks to this solution, in adding to the already serious traffic congestion around Rose Hill at peak times, and of course, the car park at Rose Hill is much smaller than the one at Marple.

As far as road congestion goes, you ain't seen nothing yet. The construction of the entry to the new Hazel Grove car park at the rear of the Rising Sun has already been problematic. Once the SEMMS work starts in earnest at the A6 intersection and the A6 seizes up, traffic from Buxton to Stockport will be attempting to rat-run, either from Furness Vale, the New Mills A6 Albion Road traffic lights, Andrew lane, Windlehurst Lane and  Threaphurst Lane and this traffic will ultimately end up in Marple in a solid jam past Rose Hill station. When SEMMS to Hazel Grove has been completed there will be an increased volume of traffic from the south (assuming the A6 doesn't just block up completely) to use this new link to the airport so there is a danger of additional longer distance traffic to Stockport attempting to avoid Hazel Grove (invariably via Marple). When the work to the Simpsons corner on the A6 has been completed, the next link through to Offerton Green and the M60 at Bredbury will be little more than a formality and the consequence will be a new additional intersection at Offerton Green on Marple Road with all of its attendant problems. We have a years of traffic chaos ahead of us! If the roads seize up, the economy seizes up!

The railway line is there, it is underutilised, it is suffering from lack of investment but development be it train or train or tram/tram in the short rather than the long term will be beneficial to the people and the economy of Marple and Stockport and a more urgent approach and then investment should go into creating a rail or tram route to Stockport even though this may be costly.

[Dave]

AFAIK the only reason for the tram-trains serving Rose Hill rather than Marple is the cost of electrifying the Marple North Tunnel.  But there are real drawbacks to this solution, in adding to the already serious traffic congestion around Rose Hill at peak times, and of course, the car park at Rose Hill is much smaller than the one at Marple.