Marple Motor Company Ltd - brand new MOT Testing Station in Marple

Poll

Do you approve, oppose or not care if a supermarket were built on the Hibbert Lane site?

I object to a supermarket being built on the site.
I approve of a supermarket being built on the site.
I don't mind what is done with it.

Author Topic: Tesco / ASDA !!!  (Read 146807 times)

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wheels

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Re: Tesco / ASDA !!!
« Reply #1815 on: August 05, 2012, 10:36:01 PM »
I see Admin has posted just about the most sensible response there has been to this from Cllr Derbyshire Leader of the Council. She makes the sound point that Councillors coming out for or against before a planning application is even lodged might be grounds for calling for a judical review.

Oh that the Marple Councillors had such sense rather than jumping in bed with what they consider to be side which will get them elected.

Equally MiAdemanding that Councillors commit themselves in advance of a planning application is good news for ASDA

simonesaffron

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Re: Tesco / ASDA !!!
« Reply #1816 on: August 06, 2012, 02:41:20 PM »
I see Admin has posted just about the most sensible response there has been to this from Cllr Derbyshire Leader of the Council. She makes the sound point that Councillors coming out for or against before a planning application is even lodged might be grounds for calling for a judical review.

Oh that the Marple Councillors had such sense rather than jumping in bed with what they consider to be side which will get them elected.

Equally MiAdemanding that Councillors commit themselves in advance of a planning application is good news for ASDA


Hello Wheels,

We must be fair here all Councillors did not jump into bed. Councillors Bispham, Dowling and Ingham have never uttered a sentence on the subject, I expect quite deliberately.

you are of course quite right all politicians will say whatever they feel people want to hear in order for them to be elected/re-elected. The point is do they mean it ? Councillor Alexander has spoken out against the development because of "traffic issues" and there is no doubt that there are traffic issues so I am going to give her the benefit of the doubt and say her concerns are genuine. Cllr Candler has some cock-eyed reason to do with Marple College being gifted the land by John Major in 1992 for educational purposes. What has 1992 and John Major got to do with a supermarket in Marple in 2012 ? It's common knowledge that Candler was hectored by MIA and that he caved in so I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt. Cllr Wright just seems to agree with everything that MIA say.

As for the other three, I heard a story that Cllr Bispham was saying in the Royal Scot that if Asda fund a new swimming pool then he's for them. However I wasn't actually there myself so it could just be another story, let's face it there are enough of them about.  Just to add more speculation this is what I now think will actually happen

1/ Imminently Asda and CAMSFC will submit a joint enabling planning application. They will say that they will refurbish the College first and that once that is complete they will build their store.

2/ SMBC will recommend to reject their application on the basis that an out of district store is against their planning policy.

3/ Recommendation will come before AC whereupon swimming pool excepted all local Councillors will speak agaainst it for their own variety of reasons.

4/ Application will go to Planning Committee. IMHO, this one is not straightforward because of local political implications. If they pass it, game, set and match to ASDA the easy way. If they don't...

5/ ASDA appeal to Planning Inspectors. SMBC will say that it is against their planning policy, ASDA will say that it is only 400metres from the edge of town, that they are ensuring the College's survival, that they will provide 200 jobs and that they are meeting the supermarket needs of a town of 23,000 + residents.

6/ ASDA will hire the best legal team money can buy whereas SMBC will hire the cheapest.

Who is your money on?

There is just one possibility that could stop it...maybe - Chadwick Street.               

wheels

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Re: Tesco / ASDA !!!
« Reply #1817 on: August 06, 2012, 03:23:11 PM »
I think you slightly miss the point I was  making which was that to come out against an application before it has been submitted is evidence for the applicant that they did not have a fair hearing and will weigh heavily in any appeal.

Therefore for MiA to demand an oath of loyalty from councillor is counter productive.

I think Cllr Derbyshire makes the point extremely well.

Lisa Oldham

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Re: Tesco / ASDA !!!
« Reply #1818 on: August 06, 2012, 04:02:30 PM »
I agree that councillors on the planning committees cannot comment either way about any planning application.  However, unless its changed recently, Stockport is unusual in the fact that ALL councillors sit on the local area planning committee.  This in effect means that no councillor can EVER support any voter in anything relating to planning applications in their area at all.  This means anything.. waste dump, housing, shopping app, my extension.  It also means they in effect they cannot really advise or help local campaigns.  I have always found this very frustrating and the councillors I feel can in some situations use this to their "advantage". As this is well known by all councillors, and as some of the councillors that have used this particular argument with me in the past have actually spoken out before they should about this potential app, I have always been suspicious of their reasons for doing so(speaking out).   

In most other areas there are some councillors that do not sit on the committees all the time, therefore they can stand with their residents and offer not only their personal support but their help and expertise.

simonesaffron

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Re: Tesco / ASDA !!!
« Reply #1819 on: August 06, 2012, 05:17:40 PM »
I agree that councillors on the planning committees cannot comment either way about any planning application.  However, unless its changed recently, Stockport is unusual in the fact that ALL councillors sit on the local area planning committee.  This in effect means that no councillor can EVER support any voter in anything relating to planning applications in their area at all.  This means anything.. waste dump, housing, shopping app, my extension.  It also means they in effect they cannot really advise or help local campaigns.  I have always found this very frustrating and the councillors I feel can in some situations use this to their "advantage". As this is well known by all councillors, and as some of the councillors that have used this particular argument with me in the past have actually spoken out before they should about this potential app, I have always been suspicious of their reasons for doing so(speaking out).   

In most other areas there are some councillors that do not sit on the committees all the time, therefore they can stand with their residents and offer not only their personal support but their help and expertise.

Lisa,

This doesn't make any sense at all.

Marple Councillors sit on Area Committee every month and regularly support/refuse recommendations for Marple voters who have put in planning applications for all kinds of work.

simonesaffron

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Re: Tesco / ASDA !!!
« Reply #1820 on: August 06, 2012, 05:40:32 PM »
I think you slightly miss the point I was  making which was that to come out against an application before it has been submitted is evidence for the applicant that they did not have a fair hearing and will weigh heavily in any appeal.

Therefore for MiA to demand an oath of loyalty from councillor is counter productive.

I think Cllr Derbyshire makes the point extremely well.

Wheels, I don't think that I have missed the point, it has been made many times before on this thread, it is called "pre-determination". It is about prejudicing your view before the facts are known. The question is why have three of our Councillors done it. Why did Councillors Candler, Alexander and Wright do it ? Whilst Councillors; Dowling, Bispham and Ingham appear not to have.

As for MIA being "counter-productive"  well no change there then. In fairness we couldn't really expect MIA to know about pre-determination at the time, they are after all hapless amateurs that have made wrong move after wrong move. In fact it has been said several times on this site that with enemies like MIA, ASDA has got all the friends it needs. Councillors though are weaned on this stuff, they are told about pre-determination the day they take office. Martin Candler will have known he was doing this when he made his statement, yet he still made it, so will Cllrs Alexander and Wright yet they still made theirs. One can only ponder as to their reasons for doing it.

Perhaps MIA should ask them?           

wheels

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Re: Tesco / ASDA !!!
« Reply #1821 on: August 06, 2012, 11:32:55 PM »
I agree that councillors on the planning committees cannot comment either way about any planning application.  However, unless its changed recently, Stockport is unusual in the fact that ALL councillors sit on the local area planning committee.  This in effect means that no councillor can EVER support any voter in anything relating to planning applications in their area at all.  This means anything.. waste dump, housing, shopping app, my extension.  It also means they in effect they cannot really advise or help local campaigns.  I have always found this very frustrating and the councillors I feel can in some situations use this to their "advantage". As this is well known by all councillors, and as some of the councillors that have used this particular argument with me in the past have actually spoken out before they should about this potential app, I have always been suspicious of their reasons for doing so(speaking out).   

In most other areas there are some councillors that do not sit on the committees all the time, therefore they can stand with their residents and offer not only their personal support but their help and expertise.

I am not sure I agree Lisa I think that there is a world of difference in an elected member coming out against an application and basically excluding themselves from the decision making process and helping and assisting a community group and the situation we have here where members have aired a view even though there is no application on which to comment.

Thus those who have come out against ASAD are saying there is no application which they would ever be willing to support. This leaves the door open for any applicant to say they never got a fair hearing as elected members approached the situation with a closed mind. To say no matter what application goes in I am against it is very different to saying I have consider x application and I am against it. Thus in forcing and bullying members into declaring their view in advance of an planning application MiA are handing a golden opportunity to ASDA

Lisa Oldham

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Re: Tesco / ASDA !!!
« Reply #1822 on: August 07, 2012, 09:26:31 AM »
I agree wheels that it is not right for MIA to push councillors to declare which sde they are on.. however I also try and remember that they are just a bunch of ordinary people who might not know that councillors cant state which side they are on in Stockport.

What I do question is why some councillors have as  they cant really now be part of the decision making process without the potential of ASDA turning round and saying they were biased from the start.  Councillors have ALWAYS known this so why have they spoken out?

They know the fine line they balance on..

As to supporting and advising on planning apps.  Can you show me where they have done this?  They can maybe tell you about the process but in my experience they turn up to meetings, blow some hot air then claim they just cant get involved because of the legal position. Whether they are allowed to support more fully is maybe a different matter, Ive certainly been told the past that their hands are tied.




simonesaffron

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Re: Tesco / ASDA !!!
« Reply #1823 on: August 07, 2012, 02:58:43 PM »
Hello Lisa,

That is exactly what everybody is saying, why did they make such a declaration thus pre-determining their view ?

 I'm not sure what you mean about Councillors giving ..."advice on planning apps"... Councillors know little more about planning than you or I actually do, that isn't their job, that's the job of the professional Planning Officer. Councillors wouldn't give you advice on planning apps, (apart from about the process) they are just not qualified to do so.

If you take our current Councillors: Alexander was/is is a Civil Servant, Bispham also, Candler a local Gov Officer, Dowling a journalist, Ingham a Marketing Person and Wright a shopkeeper, what do any of them know about Planning?     

Councillors can comment on a planning application, in some cases they even have the power to grant or reject even if it is against the professional advice of their own planning officers. The issue with the ASDA is that no planning app has yet been received.

If you look on the Area Committee website you will see example after example going back year after year whereupon Councillors have sat in judgement on all shapes and sizes of planning applications. If you go to the AC you will see Councillors pass comment on all applications that come before them. They will only say that they can't comment if they have to declare a pecuniary interest which represents a conflict.

Lisa, polite question:

How many Area Committee Meetings have you been to in the last 5 years ? 

 

Franz

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Re: Tesco / ASDA !!!
« Reply #1824 on: August 08, 2012, 10:06:02 AM »
Some of the discussion on this thread regarding predetermination seems to be based on the rules applied by the courts before the introduction of the Localism Act 2011. Section 25 of the Act, which came in to force earlier this year under the terms of a commencement order, introduced changes to the common law but with what result seems to be debatable. Councillors clearly have greater freedom to express views than before but there are certainly barristers who still see scope for future litigation on the issue.

wheels

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Re: Tesco / ASDA !!!
« Reply #1825 on: August 08, 2012, 10:48:46 AM »
Indeed I think Cllr Derbyshire has already explained that in her reply

Andy

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Re: Tesco / ASDA !!!
« Reply #1826 on: August 08, 2012, 11:28:46 AM »
Have just listened to this radio 4 programme at work, there are a number of parralls to be drawn.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01lhj0s


simonesaffron

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Re: Tesco / ASDA !!!
« Reply #1827 on: August 08, 2012, 11:40:44 AM »
Some of the discussion on this thread regarding predetermination seems to be based on the rules applied by the courts before the introduction of the Localism Act 2011. Section 25 of the Act, which came in to force earlier this year under the terms of a commencement order, introduced changes to the common law but with what result seems to be debatable. Councillors clearly have greater freedom to express views than before but there are certainly barristers who still see scope for future litigation on the issue.

Quite right Alstan,

There is most definately a pre-determnination case post localism to be answered somewhere. Perhaps Marple will provide the test case

danny

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Re: Tesco / ASDA !!!
« Reply #1828 on: August 13, 2012, 09:42:05 PM »
This doesn't really "follow on" with the current topic of discussion, but I'll ask it anyway...
Lets say the college does complete the deal with asda, and moves ahead with its plans to renovate the buxton lane campus. Would ASDA still allow the college to use the hibbert lane site whilst the improvement works are taking place on the buxton lane site? or would the college use porta-cabins as classrooms?
I know no-one here can give a "accurate" answer, but I figured it would be worth a shot, seeing as though I can't ask a member of college staff until I start my second year ;)

Thanks,
Dan :)
Whats that coming over the hill? Is it a monster?
Kinda... its a monster with a towel on its head!

hollins

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Re: Tesco / ASDA !!!
« Reply #1829 on: August 13, 2012, 10:06:54 PM »
Lets say the college does complete the deal with asda, and moves ahead with its plans to renovate the buxton lane campus. Would ASDA still allow the college to use the hibbert lane site whilst the improvement works are taking place on the buxton lane site? or would the college use porta-cabins as classrooms?

I asked this question of one of the College's representative at the consultation weekend. The college's building works on Buxton Lane would be completed before Asda started work on the Hibbert Lane site. Teaching of students would not be disrupted.