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Murillo's Tapas Restaurant.

Poll
Question: Do you approve, oppose or not care if a supermarket were built on the Hibbert Lane site?
I object to a supermarket being built on the site.
I approve of a supermarket being built on the site.
I don't mind what is done with it.

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Author Topic: Tesco / ASDA !!!  (Read 130344 times)
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Miss Marple
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« Reply #1500 on: March 14, 2012, 11:30:36 AM »

I don't understand that post. By ' transferring subjects to another campus', do you mean Buxton Lane or Cheadle?

In any case, the underlying position is clear: there must be no loss of curriculum in Marple as the result of any land disposal.  And that is how it has to be.  What's the problem?   Huh
You know exactly what I mean !   So why are we already losing curriculum at Marple, could it be that the corporation think they are a law unto themselves ?
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BECAUSE IT CONCERNS ME, MINE AND OTHERS !!!!!
finetimefontaine
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« Reply #1501 on: March 14, 2012, 11:35:50 AM »

Don't get me wrong, there may well be big job losses, as a lot can change over the next (shall I be optimistic and say) 5 yrs that it takes for these plans to come to fruition, but as yet, there is no evidence that there will be.

When you "optimistically say 5 years" I'm not sure whether you are referring to building the ASDA or realising the College's development plans or both. I don't know about the College and we don't really know what their development plans are - other than a catch-all statement to develop the Buxton Campus. However as far as Asda is concerned if they put their planning application in a day after local elections in May and SMBC's Planning Committee nods it through then there is no reason why you can't be patting yourself on the derriere as you walk through the doors whistling the asda price jingle by next Easter. And before anybody starts jumping up and down saying the Council have made a public statement that they will refuse planning permission - well they have said no such thing - the Director of Planning has and so has the leader of the Council (who incidentally has a good chance of losing his seat in May)  but they aren't the Council - they're just a couple of people involved with it.

Furthermore after May's elections when the Lib Dems have lost even more seats in Stockport, perhaps not in Marple but in, Manor, Romiley, Cale Green, possibly Offerton and Cheadle. The planning Committee will comprise of a Libdem minority because of the proportionality rule, and if Conservative and Labour combined controlled Planning Committee thought that they could damage the Libdem's national flagship ward of Marple by granting planning permission to ASDA then they'd let them build one on in the middle of the Memorial Park! Let alone Hibbert Lane !
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Miss Marple
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« Reply #1502 on: March 14, 2012, 11:40:13 AM »

I could not agree more Finetime !   Everything in my opinion has been staged and planned until after the elections, I am sure some of the suits think we are stupid, but believe me we really are one step ahead  Wink
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marpleexile
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« Reply #1503 on: March 14, 2012, 12:12:07 PM »


When you "optimistically say 5 years" I'm not sure whether you are referring to building the ASDA or realising the College's development plans or both. I don't know about the College and we don't really know what their development plans are - other than a catch-all statement to develop the Buxton Campus. However as far as Asda is concerned if they put their planning application in a day after local elections in May and SMBC's Planning Committee nods it through then there is no reason why you can't be patting yourself on the derriere as you walk through the doors whistling the asda price jingle by next Easter.

Either/both. This issue is going to drag on and on (and Ariston) as there will inevitably be appeal after appeal until the "loosing" side (whichever that turns out to be) has run out of options.
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Dave
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« Reply #1504 on: March 14, 2012, 01:03:33 PM »

You know exactly what I mean !

Sorry Miss M, but I don't.  Why would I ask a question if I already knew the answer  Huh   You need to spell it out to me: by referring to 'transferring subjects to another campus' did you mean Buxton Lane or Cheadle?

So why are we already losing curriculum at Marple?

There are various possible reasons.   The most common reason for a course being dropped is that not enough students want to take it - this happens all the time: courses for which there is little demand are replaced by new ones that students actually want to do.   It's called being responsive to changing demand. The one certainty is that any course which is closing at the moment won't be doing so because of the possible future closure of the Hibbert Lane site, which is far from a done deal, and, contrary to what you and Finetime seem to believe, is likely to be a few years away, if it happens at all.

Finetime writes:
However as far as Asda is concerned if they put their planning application in a day after local elections in May and SMBC's Planning Committee nods it through then there is no reason why you can't be patting yourself on the derriere as you walk through the doors whistling the asda price jingle by next Easter. And before anybody starts jumping up and down saying the Council have made a public statement that they will refuse planning permission - well they have said no such thing - the Director of Planning has and so has the leader of the Council (who incidentally has a good chance of losing his seat in May)  but they aren't the Council - they're just a couple of people involved with it.

....but s/he may be unaware that there is no serious prospect of the SMBC Planning Committee 'nodding through' a planning application for a supermarket in Hibbert Lane, either before or after the May elections, for the simple reason that the Local Development Framework has the area zoned for housing, not retail. So if a planning application for retail use is going to be approved, it will be at appeal - and that's a long-winded process.  And then if the application were ultimately to be approved - say, some time next year - the College would then have to get planning consent for its Buxton Lane development, and then build it and move in, before the demolition team goes on site at Hibbert Lane.  So don't expect much back-pocket slapping until about 2016 at the earliest!  
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Miss Marple
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« Reply #1505 on: March 14, 2012, 01:45:07 PM »

I mean transferring courses to Cheadle that were once provided at Marple if that's not a loss of curriculum I don't know what is.   If CAMSFC are allowed to undertake this it will possibly result in our children having to be bussed  to Cheadle for education,  which is a nonsense given that we have two perfectly adequate colleges here on our doorstep
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Dave
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« Reply #1506 on: March 14, 2012, 01:54:27 PM »

I agree, Miss M, and I don't think the YPLA (soon to become the SFA) would allow that. 
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Miss Marple
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« Reply #1507 on: March 14, 2012, 02:19:56 PM »

That's the problem ! Lord Hill in his last letter  to me had been assured by the YPLA that there would be no loss of curriculum if the sites merged and that plans were already being drawn up to include all curriculum lost at the Hibbert lane site in the plans for Buxton Lane.  Now I maybe a lot of things but I am no mathematician but even I can see that 2 into 1 won't go, so my fear is that CAMSFC are, if Victor M is to be believed, and I have no reason to doubt him, already moving some of the curriculum out of Marple on the quiet so when they have to present plans the already lost curriculum would not have to be included.   Now do  you see where I am coming from  Huh
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finetimefontaine
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« Reply #1508 on: March 14, 2012, 02:55:02 PM »

I could not agree more Finetime !   Everything in my opinion has been staged and planned until after the elections, I am sure some of the suits think we are stupid, but believe me we really are one step ahead  Wink

Miss M, I presume that when you say "we", you mean MIA and considering that MIA have been three steps behind the political process so far then its quite a feat that you are now ..."really one step ahead". I'd be interested to know how, but I suppose if you told me... then you'd have to kill me.

Dave, the fact that Hibbert Lane has been zoned for housing in the Council's LDF, and your right it has, offers no guarantees at all that it can't be used for retail. What it probably guarantees is that the Planning Officers will recommend refusal to ASDA but we are not dealing with officers who have planning agendas we are dealing with politicians who have political one's. Elected members have been overuling Officers for years and there is nothing to say that they won't do it here. If it suits them they'll throw the LDF out of the window without even opening it. The power here is with the Councillors not the Officers nor the LDF.  If they refuse permission then ASDA can appeal as you say but if they grant it - that is it...game...set and match. 


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Harry
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« Reply #1509 on: March 14, 2012, 03:07:53 PM »

Surely if attendance on a given course is so low that that course is losing money, then the only options are to consolidate onto one site, be that Cheadle or Marple, or to drop the course from the curriculum altogether. It would be absolute madness to offer a course at both Cheadle and Marple if they were both unprofitable.

The curriculum has to be constantly revised.
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Dave
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« Reply #1510 on: March 14, 2012, 03:22:07 PM »

That's the problem ! Lord Hill in his last letter  to me had been assured by the YPLA that there would be no loss of curriculum if the sites merged and that plans were already being drawn up to include all curriculum lost at the Hibbert lane site in the plans for Buxton Lane.  Now I maybe a lot of things but I am no mathematician but even I can see that 2 into 1 won't go,

The trouble with a thread as loooooooooong as this one is that you do end up going round and round the same old issues!  This one is certainly an old chestnut!  To save myself the schlepp of dealing with it again, here's what I wrote last time:
I think you'll find there's ample space at Buxton Lane for the college to build what it needs, without building significantly higher than the present Buxton Lane. Also, it's important to realise that the floor area of a new building will not be as great as what they are replacing at Hibbert Lane. One of the main reasons for getting rid of Hibbert Lane is that is used very inefficiently, because it was built as a secondary school. Consequently, many of the rooms are the wrong size: schools have nice neat classes of 30 kids - 6th form colleges don't: far from it! So the new building, being purpose built, should be quite a bit smaller.

I've mentioned before that I have some experience of relocating a college.  We went from two enormous old Victorian buildings to one compact purpose-built one which was a fraction of the floor area.  And there was no problem, because the new one was designed specifically for our needs.  

we are not dealing with officers who have planning agendas we are dealing with politicians who have political one's. Elected members have been overuling Officers for years and there is nothing to say that they won't do it here. If it suits them they'll throw the LDF out of the window without even opening it.

Why would it suit them?  AFAIK there is not a single councillor who has shown any support for the college's proposals. 
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Belly
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« Reply #1511 on: March 14, 2012, 04:09:27 PM »

I could not agree more Finetime !   Everything in my opinion has been staged and planned until after the elections, I am sure some of the suits think we are stupid, but believe me we really are one step ahead  Wink
Dave, the fact that Hibbert Lane has been zoned for housing in the Council's LDF, and your right it has, offers no guarantees at all that it can't be used for retail. What it probably guarantees is that the Planning Officers will recommend refusal to ASDA but we are not dealing with officers who have planning agendas we are dealing with politicians who have political one's. Elected members have been overuling Officers for years and there is nothing to say that they won't do it here. If it suits them they'll throw the LDF out of the window without even opening it. The power here is with the Councillors not the Officers nor the LDF.  If they refuse permission then ASDA can appeal as you say but if they grant it - that is it...game...set and match. 

Thats not strictly true finetime.

If land is allocated for one use in the local plan / ldf, the local authority just can't give planning approval for a totally different land use. It can 'recommend' such an approval, but it would have to be advertised as a 'departure from the plan' and as such has to be formally offered to the secretary of state (Mr Pickles) for him to 'call in' the application and make the decision himself. If it is called in (and there would be a half decent chance it would be, if it was approved against officer advice) then it would end up at a 'call in public inquiry'. If it wasn't called in, only then could SMBC give planning approval.

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Victor M
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« Reply #1512 on: March 14, 2012, 04:17:46 PM »

Dave, the problem is that there won't be any reduction following the transfer to the single site in Marple, that reduction will already have taken place in financial years 2011-12 & 2012-13. Also if you look at the last minutes available the Chair of Governor's has asked if it is possible to undertake the changes in this financial year. Now why do you think they want the reductions brought forward? If you look at the courses that use to be offerred at both campuses and now are only offerred at one (Cheadle) why is it that Cheadle always appears to be the beneficiary?
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finetimefontaine
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« Reply #1513 on: March 14, 2012, 04:41:16 PM »

Dave,

As I'm sure you know there are sixty -  three Councillors in Stockport. Most of them couldn't care less about CAMSFC. Most of them couldn't care less about Asda. With the exception perhaps of 8/10 of them, they couldn't care less about Marple. What they do care about are their political aims and games.

I'm not saying what they'll do. All I'm saying saying is that there is no point in quoting the Council's LDF, that won't stop ASDA, that won't stop anything especially if it becomes a political issue. Go to any Council chamber and you'll see party politics at work.

 At the time of writing , the Planning Committee consists of 11 Councillors: 6 Libdems, 2 Labour and 3 Conservative. One of the Libdems is our own Councillor Kev, the Libdems will probably let him lead on it because of his local political knowledge and they'll always support their own. Whereas the other parties will very often go against the Libdems - for no other reason than it is the LibDems.

If the Committee sat tonight and Councillor Kev was opposed to the ASDA ( I dont know that this is true ) then the application would almost certainly be rejected - but come the election the Committee will  have a different political make-up and if Councillor Kev is opposed to it then - they might be opposed to him - only this time they'll have the majority. Then you could have planning consent by September.  
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Dave
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« Reply #1514 on: March 14, 2012, 05:05:25 PM »

Finetime, you need to read what belly wrote about what happens when local authority departs from its own LDF.
As far as closing courses (or relocating them to Cheadle) is concerned, it's important to understand how further education works. Colleges are funded per student enrolment. They are suffering cuts in the unit of funding which require significant belt-tightening, job losses etc. The one thing no college does, especially in such a challenging financial climate, is close viable courses, because to do so is to turn down desperately needed cash!
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