Consulting Structural & Civil Engineers in Marple Bridge

Author Topic: Marple Wharf Development  (Read 34363 times)

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Howard

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Re: Marple Wharf Development
« Reply #117 on: January 14, 2019, 08:23:49 AM »
Is a cafe run by a community enterprise not totally unfair on people who have invested their own money to open cafes in Marple?

How can we expect anyone to invest in Mapple if they are then faced with unfair competition?

@ringi Just because something is funded by the community doesn't mean it's unfair. "Community owned" means owned by many shareholders in the community rather than just a few. What's unfair about that?
Howard

corium

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Re: Marple Wharf Development
« Reply #116 on: January 11, 2019, 09:33:33 AM »
Is a cafe run by a community enterprise not totally unfair on people who have invested their own money to open cafes in Marple?

How can we expect anyone to invest in Mapple if they are then faced with unfair competition?

As I understand it this project will be funded along the same lines as the Northumberland Arms i.e. a significant proportion will be from the local community funding it from their own pockets to open it so local people will be risking their own money, albeit  individually, on a smaller scale. However I think potentially everyone might benefit. As it happens I have a friend who developed holiday accommodation many years ago which happen to be near the Froghall Wharf that many are using as a comparison to this development. They tell me that on some days you can hardly move for visitors and some of the local businesses e.g. the pub can't believe their luck and they have certainly seen a rise in off peak bookings many of which specifically mention the wharf as being the focal point for their holidays.

andrewbowden

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Re: Marple Wharf Development
« Reply #115 on: January 10, 2019, 08:36:46 PM »
You'll have to help me out here ringi. I don't have any involvement in the project outlined by Malcolm by the way but why would a community enterprise cafe be unfair competition? Competition yes but why unfair?

Plus will the wharf really pull custom from a town centre cafe? Potentially the "All Saint's Mums" et al would venture there rather than trek down the hill but I'm not sure someone already in town would trek up to the wharf for a brew....

It's possible people from outside the area using the canal towpath would use a cafe next to the canal, rather than divert off into town to get refreshment.  I have seen people in walking boots in the Samuel Oldknown before now, and whilst I don't know where they came from, they could have been on the towpath.

If you walk the towpath through Disley you'll find signs next to the towpath telling you all the pubs and cafes.  Thus encouraging you to visit the various small businesses in the area...

Phil

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Re: Marple Wharf Development
« Reply #114 on: January 10, 2019, 08:28:38 PM »
Is a cafe run by a community enterprise not totally unfair on people who have invested their own money to open cafes in Marple?

How can we expect anyone to invest in Mapple if they are then faced with unfair competition?
You'll have to help me out here ringi. I don't have any involvement in the project outlined by Malcolm by the way but why would a community enterprise cafe be unfair competition? Competition yes but why unfair?

Plus will the wharf really pull custom from a town centre cafe? Potentially the "All Saint's Mums" et al would venture there rather than trek down the hill but I'm not sure someone already in town would trek up to the wharf for a brew....

RH

ringi

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Re: Marple Wharf Development
« Reply #113 on: January 10, 2019, 05:09:12 PM »
Is a cafe run by a community enterprise not totally unfair on people who have invested their own money to open cafes in Marple?

How can we expect anyone to invest in Mapple if they are then faced with unfair competition?

Malcolm Allan

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Re: Marple Wharf Development
« Reply #112 on: January 09, 2019, 01:06:58 PM »
I can say a bit more about the proposal a group of us have been working on. Our team is four professional local people with relevant skills whose sole purpose is to save the wharf for community use and community ownership. For a year we’ve been working on a full professional business plan, which is complete. This has been fully worked up, with cash flow and business projections but let me stress this would be a community enterprise – community owned and run. The plan has a cafe and heritage room on the ground floor (available for community room hire) and a health and fitness centre on the top floor. We have local business partners committed to both who have helped us work up business projections including income, operation and so on. The building is in a very poor state and it needs to be renovated and used. There is quite a bit of cash needed to get it into any sort of use and then more to turn it into anything else. Plus it will need planning permission in all events –  a heritage centre needs planning permission under the same overall planning rules as housing, so it is quite crucial the reasons why the application has been turned down, especially if the reasons apply to all types of use (parking and traffic issues for example). If these apply to heritage use, then a big difficulty has been created by turning down the planning application, as it will mean the building simply can't be used for anything at all so will be lost to the community. If we can’t get planning approval, we won’t get grants either. Our plan saves the building and gives it our best shot to run it for the benefit of the whole community. If it fails it won’t be for lack of trying to do something positive and if it fails it will still belong to the community, and to Marple!

We have had assistance from the council, both in looking at the business aspects and at the finances, plus practical support on how to run a heritage shop and what throughput and income we could expect. We have a structural engineer in our team and have had pro bono help of architects, accountants and surveyors.

We have successfully brought the CRT along with us and have outline heads of agreement and a price for purchase, all done prior to the planning application. They had agreed that if they obtained planning permission they would do nothing, but would instantly pause for a considerable period to let us raise money for the building and guarantee to sell it to the community if we reached the price agreed.

Our aim would be to supplement grant money we can obtain by being a community enterprise, with public share subscription – for residents not big business! This would need to be secured by the ownership of the building and a fall back if the enterprise fails, so that investors have security. One writer is correct to say this sort of enterprise is prone to failure, which is why we have a robust plan that has been tested and assessed, and uses the experience locally of the Northumberland Arms which has been very successful in its first year. We are forming our legal community company now, but need to work through how to get planning approval. If there are people with relevant skills who are genuinely committed to this sort of plan, we welcome interest.


GM

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Re: Marple Wharf Development
« Reply #111 on: January 04, 2019, 11:11:26 AM »
Having looked over the plans for the development including the provision for the bins and new horizon mooring.
Surely there would be room for compromise, excluding the pipe dreams for a cafe.

It makes more sense to utilise the unused wharf for use as an actual mooring and storing of the new horizon boat!.
Considering it is used by the disabled they could also adapt the end section for easier access by wheel chairs.

The planned bins and canal boat facilities could be sited directly behind, and allow for the current housing development to be extended and provide a clear distinction between the new and historic building.

They could convert the remain area of the wharf into a separate one/two bedroom apartment, as a full conversion would have to be built with the canal flowing freely under the a false floor on the ground level.

Snowball

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Re: Marple Wharf Development
« Reply #110 on: January 03, 2019, 02:27:49 PM »
It needs a lot of money spending on it now .the councilors rejected the aplication on the grounds of parking and density .

It does but here we have a developer who is prepared to spend that money. There seems to no viable alternatives only a load of pipe dreams.

amazon

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Re: Marple Wharf Development
« Reply #109 on: January 03, 2019, 11:12:43 AM »
Agreed.

In a few years time, when the canopy has collapsed and the Wharf buildings are so badly decayed that they have to be demolished we’ll look back at this and say it’s a pity that this development was rejected. At least it would have saved the area from dereliction.
It needs a lot of money spending on it now .the councilors rejected the aplication on the grounds of parking and density .

Snowball

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Re: Marple Wharf Development
« Reply #108 on: January 02, 2019, 09:59:56 PM »

All I see by supporters of this whole project is a lot of fantasy and very little realism.

Agreed.

In a few years time, when the canopy has collapsed and the Wharf buildings are so badly decayed that they have to be demolished we’ll look back at this and say it’s a pity that this development was rejected. At least it would have saved the area from dereliction.

andrewbowden

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Re: Marple Wharf Development
« Reply #107 on: January 02, 2019, 12:37:28 PM »
Who pays to run your well used visitor centre and cafe .

And who visits it?  And why?  What's in it?  How would it be any better than the current Welcome Station that is more conviently sited?

Go ask the people of Broadbottom how easy it is to run a visitor centre.  The local community there took over the visitor centre when Taneside council closed it.  It lasted a little while but now is a craft shop.  There's one on the Middlewood Way.  Every time I have been in, it's been empty. 

It's all very well having fantastic schemes but actually getting projects off the ground and sustainable in the long term.

All I see by supporters of this whole project is a lot of fantasy and very little realism. 

amazon

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Re: Marple Wharf Development
« Reply #106 on: January 02, 2019, 11:32:12 AM »
By that reckoning, you’d think something like a cafe wouldn’t be viable and indeed, having been there myself, it’d have made far more sense for a lavish residential conversion to give CRT a payout than Marple. I don’t know why they went in such different directions. Is the property market in Marple too tempting?

But by comparison Marple’s warehouse is hemmed in on all sides, totally overlooked by a towpath and practically in a town centre; not great for selling on as an expensive dream home but perfect for a well-used visitor hub and cafe.

I’m so glad the application was refused and only hope they do the decent thing and come back with a new plan which converts land value for sensible residential development (one fewer house at least) and reserves the warehouse for public use, with the income generated going directly into making Marple's canals the visitor draw they should be - bringing towpaths to Strines, Romiley and High Lane up to an acceptable standard would be a start.
Who pays to run your well used visitor centre and cafe .

rsh

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Re: Marple Wharf Development
« Reply #105 on: January 02, 2019, 12:15:47 AM »
To be fair they are two totally different situations. Froghall is (currently) a dead end on the network with no significant properties or villages close by and generally only has a visitor footfall. Even boaters have difficulty due to the restrictions of Froghall tunnel.

By that reckoning, you’d think something like a cafe wouldn’t be viable and indeed, having been there myself, it’d have made far more sense for a lavish residential conversion to give CRT a payout than Marple. I don’t know why they went in such different directions. Is the property market in Marple too tempting?

But by comparison Marple’s warehouse is hemmed in on all sides, totally overlooked by a towpath and practically in a town centre; not great for selling on as an expensive dream home but perfect for a well-used visitor hub and cafe.

I’m so glad the application was refused and only hope they do the decent thing and come back with a new plan which converts land value for sensible residential development (one fewer house at least) and reserves the warehouse for public use, with the income generated going directly into making Marple's canals the visitor draw they should be - bringing towpaths to Strines, Romiley and High Lane up to an acceptable standard would be a start.

GeoffAbell

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Re: Marple Wharf Development
« Reply #104 on: December 23, 2018, 08:36:20 PM »
CRT, and their development company H2O, are required to make the most of their heritage assets.  It's a question of how they do that.  (There are many aspects of planning law as I remember well!)  I should love The Wharf to become a shining asset for Marple. 

prestbury

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Re: Marple Wharf Development
« Reply #103 on: December 18, 2018, 11:49:45 PM »
For me, this article demonstrate what is wrong with CRT's plans for the warehouse at Marple Wharf:

In this article about the conversion of a very similar canal side wharf at Froghall Basin their property surveyor says "The Trust works hard to make the most of all our unusual canalside buildings. Our aim is to celebrate our rich waterway heritage by supporting sensitive restorations and finding new 21st century uses for these wonderful structures."

Why have they not been able to apply that in Marple? I understand that compared to Marple, Froghall Basin is a quiet and out-of-the-way location.


To be fair they are two totally different situations. Froghall is (currently) a dead end on the network with no significant properties or villages close by and generally only has a visitor footfall. Even boaters have difficulty due to the restrictions of Froghall tunnel.