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Archive => Archived Boards => Local Issues => Topic started by: Harry on December 13, 2017, 07:25:17 PM
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Interesting to see that the council are considering increasing car park charges in the district centres by 150% in order to increase their revenue. i.e. Scrap the one hour 20p charge and increase the two hour charge to 50p.
Also, they are considering charging for parking at Marple station (and others) at both car parks.
Details here http://democracy.stockport.gov.uk/documents/s126778/Enc%204%20Increase%20in%20Parking%20revenues%20draft%20business%20case.pdf (http://democracy.stockport.gov.uk/documents/s126778/Enc%204%20Increase%20in%20Parking%20revenues%20draft%20business%20case.pdf)
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Yes, this seems to have crept up on us almost unnoticed @Harry .
I've just come back from Marple Area Committee and councillors were not very happy about the level of consultation and I think there will be further consultation to be done.
You can skip direct to the item via this link at 9mins and 30 seconds in and it runs until just after the 14th minute:
https://stockport.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/321571/start_time/570000 (https://stockport.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/321571/start_time/570000)
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Would I be correct in thinking what the council calls the Middlers car park is the one next to the Purple Pakora?
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Would I be correct in thinking what the council calls the Middlers car park is the one next to the Purple Pakora?
I think they are referring to the council one next to the Midland Pub (opposite the entrance to Brabyns Park), which is currently free of charges.
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Would I be correct in thinking what the council calls the Middlers car park is the one next to the Purple Pakora?
I think that is the one they are referring to. The Purple Pakora used to be a restaurant called Midlers (or Middlers, can't remember). They mention it having 90 spaces, which backs up it being that one).
They also refer to a car park as Brabyns Brow, with 71 spaces. That could be the one Mark referred to, next to the Midland.
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I think that is the one they are referring to. The Purple Pakora used to be a restaurant called Midlers (or Middlers, can't remember). They mention it having 90 spaces, which backs up it being that one).
They also refer to a car park as Brabyns Brow, with 71 spaces. That could be the one Mark referred to, next to the Midland.
Yes, I agree with that @Harry I was getting my wires crossed, sorry @corium I didn't realise the one at the Pakora was council owned too.
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Yes, I agree with that @Harry I was getting my wires crossed, sorry @corium I didn't realise the one at the Pakora was council owned too.
Neither did I to be honest, I'd always wondered. I can't recall the current arrangements (I think there are none per se) but if this goes ahead we can probably wave goodbye to the spaces in Brabyns Park being available during the day and without forethought, all the paid for parking space in Marple Bridge suddenly become options for those commuters prepared to pay.
Noting that this arrangement appears to on the drawing board, at least for the moment, dealing with parking charges in isolation will simply cause knock on issues - there are short lengths of road outside St Martin's church & I think the Purple Pakora with no current restrictions if I recall correctly so those will be parked on which won't help the traffic flow and as for Ley Hall Road etc... People will walk that far to avoid paying. I'm not sure 2 hours minimum will encourage people to "pop" into the Marple Bridge shops.
Yes it would be nice if everyone walked, but I accept large numbers in the community need their car for one reason or another. Getting around in Marple Bridge always involves climbing a hill at some point and this is a real issue for many.
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Yes, I agree with that @Harry I was getting my wires crossed, sorry @corium I didn't realise the one at the Pakora was council owned too.
I've been told on a few occasions that the Purple Pakora car park was/is owned by Rail Track/Network Rail/the railways...
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That would not surprise me, as there is a well used vehicular access on to the railway track via that land.
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To avoid ANY doubt, the Stockport Council website lists the Purple Pakora car park as 'Middlers' on this page
https://www.stockport.gov.uk/car-parks/car-parks-in-stockport
(select Find Address and enter 'SK6 7DA' - the Purple Pakora postcode)
Stockport Council also have a map that shows their land and assets
https://www.stockport.gov.uk/stockport-council-land-and-assets-map
Using the same postcode we can see that they own land marked "Brabyns Brow Picnic Area". Whilst named that, it's clear from the map that the land includes the car park.
So not railway owned.
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One thing I note from the maps & info kindly pointed to by others & combining it is that the car parking in Brabyns Park is council owned but they don't seem to regard it as being near the station...unlike all the commuters I see using it!
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Interesting - can't understand why they wouldn't already apply a charge here for parking if they do own it - and why its not kept in good condition like other council owned car parks.
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And what the Purple Pakora car park needs more than anything is marked spaces. People park too far apart, and it's very wasteful of precious space.
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To update a few details: the "Purple Pakora" car park is Stockport MBC owned: it used to be a cattle market until teh 60s I gather. TfGM stumped up some money to make a surfaced car park, but we (the people) still own it. Network Rail do have access rights. And the restaurant, formerly Mi(d)dlers (officers have been told it's changed), formerly a sweet shop, is not part of that car park space.
None of the local councillors are happy with the proposals, and we are attempting to change them. We were told there was consultation, but this wasn't done properly. There was a meeting at the town hall re this last week (when I was away) reported by Marple Civic Society here - thanks to them. Look for "car parking" at teh start of eth news section.
http://www.marplecivicsociety.org.uk/News.html (http://www.marplecivicsociety.org.uk/News.html)
The big danger is that is will hurt small businesses in Marple Br and Marple, and train usage.
The Labour-run council however faced a revenue shortfall of £1.5m last year and this was only met by digging into reserves built up over the years. This is not sustainable, and will get worse until 2020 when all government rate-support subsidy stops. They need to find the money from somewhere. 2018-2019's budget will be set on 22 Feb at full council. That's the backdrop.
I'll keep an update on progress here. I hope people find this useful.
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Apropos to nothing, but the planned charges are hardly extortionate. And it has to be said that a factor in why people don't use public transport is the availability of cheap parking. I took the kids to Stockport for some new shoes recently. Would have cost us £9 by bus. Parking was £1.80. Doesn't encourage you to jump on a bus.
Ultimately free parking is a subsidy to car drivers. Car parks need to be maintained if nothing else. In this era of never ending government enforced austerity and budget cuts, it is not surprising that councils like Stockport are having to think about how they raise more money.
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Excellent points Andrew. All land has a value and it's perfectly proper for the owner of the land, the council in this case, to seek to maximise income from that land. Geoff this seems an excellent proposal to me and a little opportunist to be objecting to it. 😙
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50p for two hours and paying for all day parking doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
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The big danger is that is will hurt small businesses in Marple Br and Marple, and train usage.
I agree that introducing car park charges at the Purple Pakora may discourage people from using the trains, although the level of proposed charges appears to be modest - as far as I can tell from the council report the plan is to charge 20p per hour. So someone parking all day would pay about £2, which is not excessive. And if the car park spaces were to be marked, that would enable more cars to park there, which would be really helpful.
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50p for two hours and paying for all day parking doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
Given I no longer use cash to pay for anything, it is enough to put me off going just due to finding change to use (I am not willing to pay a "fine" to use a credit card to pay for parking.) Then there is the risk that the cafe does not have a table, and the carpark will not give me a refund......
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Given I no longer use cash to pay for anything, it is enough to put me off going just due to finding change to use (I am not willing to pay a "fine" to use a credit card to pay for parking.) Then there is the risk that the cafe does not have a table, and the carpark will not give me a refund......
If they dont have a table dont you go elswere .
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If they dont have a table dont you go elswere .
Yes, but that results it moving the car.....
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Given I no longer use cash to pay for anything, it is enough to put me off going just due to finding change to use (I am not willing to pay a "fine" to use a credit card to pay for parking.) Then there is the risk that the cafe does not have a table, and the carpark will not give me a refund......
Most parking machines have many ways to pay by mobile phone these days. Contactless readers and even the old fashioned way of paying by text message as long as you register your mobile number with the parking provider which takes two minutes.
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Yes, but that results it moving the car.....
so you should you want it for nothing .
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Most parking machines have many ways to pay by mobile phone these days.
Yes - and they are a nightmare! >:(
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Yes - and they are a nightmare! >:(
Not my experience actually. In the early days of mobile payments, the infrastructure wasn't really up to much but these days it is highly reliable and very quick. As @ringi says, I rarely carry coins these days and use contactless for almost everything.
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I take the point that all land has a value.
The Trafford Centre has "free" parking and does well out of it. It's not really free - the cost is folded into what the retailers and therefore shoppers pay, but it is free at the point of use. District centres may be "cost sensitive" - officers words, not mine. That is, not everyone is so public-minded.
Part of the problem is that the station car park would be free, but the overflow not which is inconsistent.
Does anyone on this forum use the car park to travel by train? And would you mind paying £2 per day extra?
(In case you missed them, these are the original proposals from last year, and they may be subject to change
http://democracy.stockport.gov.uk/documents/s126778/Enc%204%20Increase%20in%20Parking%20revenues%20draft%20business%20case.pdf (http://democracy.stockport.gov.uk/documents/s126778/Enc%204%20Increase%20in%20Parking%20revenues%20draft%20business%20case.pdf) )
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There are a few points I guess.
I pay £15.50 a day to park at Stockport Station. Well, I don't any more I load up a backpack and run. I travel to London once or twice a week. Over fifteen quid is expensive, you could park all week for that at Marple. It's nowt compared to the train fare though!
What is the difference in the price of a train ticket between New Mills and Marple. I know several Miller's who will drive over and park in Marple because the GMPTE subsidy and free parking saves them quite a bit. If the parking levelled this up perhaps fewer would do it and the carpark would have more empty spaces. How many people drive for less than a mile, I expect quite a few.
Lastly, but very importantly, we know the councillors will all make a big fuss about this but ignore the simple fact that Tory cuts, decisions taken by our MP and his colleagues, have slashed all LA funding. If any Tory or Liberal councillor suggests this isn't the case they need shouting down. As Geoff rightly pointed out the Lab minority at Stockport are struggling to balance a shrunken budget and still need to find 18million! Do you think a labour council wants to do this?!
If it is the choice between an open library and functioning social care or free parking at the station then I know how i will vote in may!
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What is the difference in the price of a train ticket between New Mills and Marple.
Day return from New Mills Central to Piccadilly, travelling at normal peak hours: £10.40
Same ticket from Marple to Piccadilly: £6.60.
So it is quite a big difference - £3.80 per day = £19 per week.
I pay £15.50 a day to park at Stockport Station.
That's extortionate! But there are cheaper car parks pretty close to the station. There's one round near the back entrance that is only £7 per day, and there are council car parks around Edgeley which are even cheaper.
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Does anyone on this forum use the car park to travel by train? And would you mind paying £2 per day extra?
At present, it is easy to get a space at Rose Hill, but if Marple cost £2 that may change. There are a lot of near Rose Hill that will be filled of parked cars if Rose Hill started charger.....
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Another alternative to paying £15 at Stockport would be to park in Marple, then get the bus ;) (£3.90 PlusBus day ticket if travelling by train.)
I go to London regularly, and always leap on the 383/384 (I do live near the bus route.)
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There are a few points I guess.
Lastly, but very importantly, we know the councillors will all make a big fuss about this ........
Does this include the Marple Councillor that now lives in Hyde and has done for some time. Indeed living in a different LA is he even still qualified.?.....
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Does this include the Marple Councillor that now lives in Hyde and has done for some time. Indeed living in a different LA is he even still qualified.?.....
Before I lived in Marple, I lived in London. At one point there was a Ukip councillor in the borough, who actually lived in Wales :/
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Day return from New Mills Central to Piccadilly, travelling at normal peak hours: £10.40
Same ticket from Marple to Piccadilly: £6.60.
So it is quite a big difference - £3.80 per day = £19 per week.
I believe this is the key "metric" in all this. People who live closer to New Mills would rather drive to Marple to get cheaper rail tickets, on the basis that it costs less than £19 to drive c 40 miles.
Whichever authority is responsible for ticket prices could ease this at a stroke.
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Whichever authority is responsible for ticket prices could ease this at a stroke.
Somehow I can't see TfGM subsidising ticket prices from somewhere outside Greater Manchester.
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A peak time toll on the road from New Mills would solve a lot of problems........
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Day return from New Mills Central to Piccadilly, travelling at normal peak hours: £10.40
Same ticket from Marple to Piccadilly: £6.60.
So it is quite a big difference - £3.80 per day = £19 per week.
That's extortionate! But there are cheaper car parks pretty close to the station. There's one round near the back entrance that is only £7 per day, and there are council car parks around Edgeley which are even cheaper.
Why not create an scheme for Stockport residents' (some kind of sticker/ID card/tag etc) obtainable with proof of address that allows them to park with a discount. Anyone outside Stockport (e.g. new Mills) can park there but at a 200% hike.
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To be clear, rail fares in Greater Manchester are regulated by Transport for Greater Manchester, and that's not the same as subsidising. They also regulate fares for Glossop, Hadfield and Dinting. Ultimately most fare control for regulated fares sits with the Department for Transport - witness a few years ago when the Department for Transport decided that off peak tickets would not be valid between 4 and 6:30pm. Transport for Greater Manchester was not involved in that decision.
Transport for Greater Manchester do subsidise some fares - things like over 65s getting free travel on trains and trams, as well as buses.
Fares for New Mills are officially set by Northern Railway - and that basically means where fares are regulated, they are controlled by the Department for Transport.
Basically unless Northern decide to reduce the fares out of the good of their own heart, nothing will ever happen, because the DfT certainly isn't going to do anything.
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What Northern have done is to reduce the difference between peak and off-peak fares at 4:30 - thank goodness.
In addition there is 1 (one) place for a car to be parked at New Mills Central. Inevitably I think there will be less rail users but also more parking on neighbouring streets like mine. I personally do not have a problem - I want more rail users - but some may.
In response to @wheels - there may be a problem if a councillor does not live / work / own property in the constituency, but only when they are up for election. Thanks for asking the question.
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What Northern have done is to reduce the difference between peak and off-peak fares at 4:30 - thank goodness.
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In response to @wheels - there may be a problem if a councillor does not live / work / own property in the constituency, but only when they are up for election. Thanks for asking the question.
Thanks Geoff useful to know nothing can be done about the Tory who no longer lives in Stockport MBC never mind Marple.
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Geoff well as a none car driver perhaps you could rent out your drive to commuters. 😂
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I believe that the money collected for parking in Etherow Country Park, and this will probably apply to all Park Car Parks, goes into a general Highways fund - perhaps someone can clarify this.
If this is the case then the Council, which now relies on volunteers to keep the Parks presentable and so encourage more car people to visit the park, is raking of the car park charges to use for other, often money wasting, highways projects, while the parks themselves are steadily deteriorating because of there being no Park Wardens to do the jobs the volunteers cannot cope with.
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Intended Car Park Charges to be a new topic, perhaps Admin can rearrange it.
Thanks
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Intended Car Park Charges to be a new topic, perhaps Admin can rearrange it.
Thanks
You posted it as a separate topic but it isn't really, it is just approaching the same topic (of car parking charges) from a different angle.
Even the title was identical, so I have merged them.
@CllrGeoffAbell do you know the answer this this query?
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OK Mark.
Re where does the money go that is paid into the Car Parks?
I have just had an email from the Council's Parks representative concerning the footpath through Brabyns Park from Compstall to Marple Station etc. It implies that any improvements to the surface, which could result in reducing pressure on the Station Car Park etc, by promoting the Government's directive to encourage walking and cycling, will be dependent on the doubtful generosity of Highways Department who, I believe, receive the funds from the Park Car Parks. So many of the Council's Highways" projects are ill considered and a waste of money that this chasing the money created by the Parks through the Highways' Department gives the Council every opportunity to hide their lack of understanding of what is required in this Borough.
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Why not create an scheme for Stockport residents' (some kind of sticker/ID card/tag etc) obtainable with proof of address that allows them to park with a discount. Anyone outside Stockport (e.g. new Mills) can park there but at a 200% hike.
Interesting idea, Howard. These things usually have a negative knock-on effect of parking on residential streets instead. Not sure how much in this case though.
The near-complete lack of parking around New Mills Central is also a problem of course. Fewer trains to/from Strines (which does have a car park) doesn't help either.
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You posted it as a separate topic but it isn't really, it is just approaching the same topic (of car parking charges) from a different angle.
Even the title was identical, so I have merged them.
@CllrGeoffAbell do you know the answer this this query?
I believe that the Labour exec member has backed off putting new charges on free car parking this week. But yes, there is a highways pot and a greenspace budget too @CTCREP - ultimately local government finance is still being strangled.
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This is why I suggested a new topic of Park Car Park Charges. I believe the money paid to park in our Park Car Parks goes into the Council's Highways Budget who then provide a small amount for the Greenspace pot. The Council then wastes money on Highways schemes such as the shared cycle and footpath on New Bridge Lane that no regular cyclist will use as it increases their travel time and is potentially dangerous, while giving insufficient money back to the Greenspace group to look after our parks etc.
It is the Parks that are attracting the people to park there, so surely all the money collected on these Park Car Parks should go to the upkeep of the parks, otherwise the parks will deteriorate and fewer people will use them regardless of the noble efforts of the Friends group, who, I suggest, should also pressure the Council to change their policy. Currently the condition of Etherow Country Park is atrocious, and the route through Brabyns Park for ordinary pedestrians is unacceptable. Surely it is the responsibility of Local Councillors to control how money is used and not just quote Stockport MBC policy.
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Re Geoff's contribution below, the Labour administration said from the very start that it would work openly and collaboratively with other groups to come to common solutions. Cllr Bailey has offered this all along on this issue – and she has now met with Liberal Democrats and done so. This could happened from the very start, but the Liberal Democrats chose to generate controversy and a petition, and then say Labour ‘backed down’ - Lisa Smart declared a great victory at a public meeting in Romiley that night. D.Trump comes to mind - This is disappointing, but not surprising. Labour will continue to work openly in discussion with anyone and everyone.
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This is why I suggested a new topic of Park Car Park Charges. I believe the money paid to park in our Park Car Parks goes into the Council's Highways Budget who then provide a small amount for the Greenspace pot. The Council then wastes money on Highways schemes such as the shared cycle and footpath on New Bridge Lane that no regular cyclist will use as it increases their travel time and is potentially dangerous, while giving insufficient money back to the Greenspace group to look after our parks etc.
It is the Parks that are attracting the people to park there, so surely all the money collected on these Park Car Parks should go to the upkeep of the parks, otherwise the parks will deteriorate and fewer people will use them regardless of the noble efforts of the Friends group, who, I suggest, should also pressure the Council to change their policy. Currently the condition of Etherow Country Park is atrocious, and the route through Brabyns Park for ordinary pedestrians is unacceptable. Surely it is the responsibility of Local Councillors to control how money is used and not just quote Stockport MBC policy.
Agree with you re etherow path from cafe up to the road it un walkable in parts they have done some of the path up to the small bridge .
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Re Geoff's contribution below, the Labour administration said from the very start that it would work openly and collaboratively with other groups to come to common solutions. Cllr Bailey has offered this all along on this issue – and she has now met with Liberal Democrats and done so. This could happened from the very start, but the Liberal Democrats chose to generate controversy and a petition, and then say Labour ‘backed down’ - Lisa Smart declared a great victory at a public meeting in Romiley that night. D.Trump comes to mind - This is disappointing, but not surprising. Labour will continue to work openly in discussion with anyone and everyone.
I work with Sheila (Cllr Bailey) on many issues and praise her where it's due - e.g. on building more affordable housing via the Viaduct Housing Partnership.
However in this case there was no consultation, the plan was hastily put together, and "consultation" consisted of an announcement in a local paper. She did back down (as she did on bins last year), and I am grateful. I hope we'd do the same but not get into that position in the first place.
By the way, how's your residents parking scheme working out?
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Hello Admin. Any chance of keeping the issue of Park Car Park Charges separate from road repairs etc, and could our Councillors spend less time blaming each other and more on trying to ensure any money collected at Park Car Parks goes into the upkeep of the Parks and isn't diverted into other schemes.
Thanks
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Mrs Admin went to Marple today and reports that the minimum car parking fee is now 30p.
I understood that the parking fee changes had been put on hold pending further consultation.
Has that happened and we all missed it again?
Can anyone advise the full scope of changes and details of the process that has been gone through?
@Steve Gribbon
@Malcolm Allan
@ColinMac
@CllrKennyBlair
@TomDowseMarpleSouth
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I can recall the details but the proposed changes other than this small increase were dropped a couple of months ago.
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The charges were passed at the budget meeting where the Conservative Councillors all voted with Labour, so I wonder if any of them will respond on this forum?
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A reply from me, as best I can, to Admin’s question. When the proposals were published, a number of councillors raised objections, including the need to consult more widely, and a very small number of us met the Cabinet member responsible, Cllr Sheila Bailey. I guess she felt we were representing our residents and didn’t feel the need for a wide consultation, I’m not sure. I had certainly imagined she might do something more than meet us. I’d encouraged community groups to write to her at this stage which I know some did (MBA for example did a very good letter). This was influential, I’m sure in changing the proposals, but we were not successful at stopping the increase. The matter then came up as part of the proposed Council budget for next year – the additional charges represent additional income to balance the books. The Lib Dem group proposed amendments to the budget (the only group to do so) and this specifically included a freeze on car parking charges in “District centres” like Marple. I actually spoke in the meeting and asked Sheila specifically is she’d freeze the charges given she had committed to a review of District Centres – it seemed logical to me to do a review first and assess what effect an increase might have, even if this meant a change in the long run. This amendment was one of a block we proposed, which would overall, we argued, have saved the Council money as we linked it to some savings. This amendment was not voted for by enough Councillors to get passed, and after that, enough voted for the budget to get the increase in parking charges passed.
In the fine detail, and in simplified terms, the changes involve a new set of charges for Stockport Town Centre, which charges more already than places like Marple. The proposal to start charging on free car parks, like the one by the Midland, was withdrawn after our representations, and the proposal to make the first two hours cost 50p (thus 50p becoming the minimum charge) was adjusted, also after representations, to an extra 10p per hour (30p being the minimum charge).