Marple Website Community Calendar
Archive => Archived Boards => Sale of Hibbert Lane Campus to Supermarket Chain => Topic started by: sleepless on October 14, 2011, 01:16:07 PM
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The Yes Campaign must be taking great heart from the low turnout at Wednesday's meeting by No Campaigners who were hardly storming the doors to get in. Same for the Rally in the Park. If 7,000 people have signed a petition against the supermarket where are they all when it comes to turning out to show their support? Or are they all sitting back and thinking somebody else will solve the problem for them?
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Well, I wanted to attend, but couldnt as I was working, Im sure it will be the same for many others from yes and no groups .
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Well a lot of them will have been at home somewhere in Greater Manchester or Derbyshire.
What's been a real eye opener for me whilst collecting signatures in Marple is the amount of elderly people who make full use of their bus passes and come to Marple from Ashton, Denton, Glossop, Hyde Mossley, New Mills and countless other places to shop in our local shops ....
Many people sign a petition because they are asked to. Not because they have any interest in the subject.
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OP writes 'If 7,000 people have signed a petition against the supermarket where are they all when it comes to turning out to show their support? Or are they all sitting back and thinking somebody else will solve the problem for them?'
No, they're in Hyde, Glossop, New Mills, even Salford and Harpurhey, which according to MIA is where many petition signatories live. The 7,000 isn't all Marple residents, that's for sure!
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Apathy is evenly spread across both sides of debate it would seem:
But only three people responded when he asked for a show of hands in support of a new supermarket.
From The Manchester Evening News report on the meeting.
I cannot understand why there is this constant need to rubbish a petition which clearly has a great deal of local support. Perhaps MIA could furnish Dave with a copy and he could personally validate the veracity and location of the signatories. The Yes campaign has managed 231 likes on its facebook page , so in the interests of balance, Dave, when you have finished establishing the accuracy of No petition you could undertake some cyber forensics to examine the facebook "likes" for duplicates and residency status.
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I'm certainly not 'rubbishing' any petition, moorendman. Indeed, I think it was you that pointed out that it doesn't matter where the signatories live, and I agree entirely with that. I was only providing an answer to sleepless's question:
If 7,000 people have signed a petition against the supermarket where are they all when it comes to turning out to show their support?
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The negative replies to this message seem to prove the point - those in favour of the supermarket seem to be more active and responsive than those against.
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where are they all when it comes to turning out to show their support?
Dave, I'm sure that you witnessed or have read about the march which must have consisted of almost 1000 Marple people. Does that count?
[not posting as moderator]
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TBF to everyone, Yes, No or on the fence, 6pm on a week night was an awful slot for the meeting
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where are they all when it comes to turning out to show their support?
Dave, I'm sure that you witnessed or have read about the march which must have consisted of almost 1000 Marple people. Does that count?
[not posting as moderator]
Howard, I did not ask that question, I only tried to answer it!
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I have been in meeting after meeting today but just could not concentrate and have been clock watching desperate to get home and ask ......... Where were you on Wed Dave old boy ! Didn't see you supporting your 2 mates from the YES campaign ? What's my old saying ???? Oh yes ! Fantastic stuff is Arm Chair Socialism ;) lol
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oh, dont smile O'Reilly
.........with apologies to fawlty Towers
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TBF to everyone, Yes, No or on the fence, 6pm on a week night was an awful slot for the meeting
It was 5pm to start at 6pm and only room for 250 when full the doors would be locked ! Now that's what I call democracy in the 21st century !
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TBF to everyone, Yes, No or on the fence, 6pm on a week night was an awful slot for the meeting
'No' still managed to outnumber 'Yes' by close to 100 to 1 ;) :D
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TBF to everyone, Yes, No or on the fence, 6pm on a week night was an awful slot for the meeting
'No' still managed to outnumber 'Yes' by close to 100 to 1 ;) :D
Could that be because on the whole they are alot older and retired/around more in the day or a business only open till 5? (No offence intended on either side). The YES campaigners that i know of have young children or work at that time. Many people don't get home till at least 6.
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TBF to everyone, Yes, No or on the fence, 6pm on a week night was an awful slot for the meeting
'No' still managed to outnumber 'Yes' by close to 100 to 1 ;) :D
Could that be because on the whole they are alot older and retired/around more in the day or a business only open till 5? (No offence intended on either side). The YES campaigners that i know of have young children or work at that time. Many people don't get home till at least 6.
Well I didn't get out of my office until 6:30pm on Wednesday, in Birmingham :(
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OP writes 'If 7,000 people have signed a petition against the supermarket where are they all when it comes to turning out to show their support? Or are they all sitting back and thinking somebody else will solve the problem for them?'
No, they're in Hyde, Glossop, New Mills, even Salford and Harpurhey, which according to MIA is where many petition signatories live. The 7,000 isn't all Marple residents, that's for sure!
would be great if they all came to shop at the new supermarket when its built and then they visited the other shops in Marple .what a boost for trade ;)
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would be great if they all came to shop at the new supermarket when its built and then they visited the other shops in Marple .what a boost for trade ;)
But would they?
I have first hand experience of similar situations in Hyde and in New Mills. In the former, where I lived for a while, since Morrisons and ASDA set up shop (close to the centre of town), smaller food shops have fallen by the wayside. There are now no independent butchers, bakers/confectioners or proper grocers' or greengrocers' shops and the market, once a fantastic source of anything you could possibly need has dwindled to a shadow of its former self (and the market has always been cheap so it isn't a case that the supermarkets have priced them out of business). There is now one greengrocery stall where there used to be three. Both wet fish stalls have closed. An excellent cheese and dairy produce stall which also sold chickens and other poultry folded shortly after Morrisons moved in. A long established bacon and cooked meats stall has gone and the bread and confectionery stall appeared to be struggling along when I was last there.
And in New Mills, which I visit regularly on business, a similar slide has been taking place. Since the Co-op moved out of the centre of town traditional shops have been closing down.
In Marple's case, it's a safe bet that those people who say that a big supermarket will be a good thing because it will be cheaper than the Co-op will be disappointed. I'd put money on the two of them getting in cahoots and fixing prices as has happened in most places where there have been "competing" supermarkets.
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I have first hand experience of similar situations in Hyde and in New Mills. In the former, where I lived for a while, since Morrisons and ASDA set up shop (close to the centre of town), smaller food shops have fallen by the wayside. There are now no independent butchers, bakers/confectioners or proper grocers' or greengrocers' shops .....
I think the owners of Hibbert Family Butchers on Clarendon Place (just over from Morrisons) may be surprised to hear this. Similarly with the owners of the bakers/confectioners, The Cake Shop, on Bennett Street.
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If people have done their shopping at the big new cheap supermarket, what is there left for them to go into Marple to shop for? It is not in the supermarket's interest for people to shop elsewhere - for anything - and they will do their utmost to close down any competition. This idea that a big store will bring more shoppers into Marple town centre doesn't make sense.
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TBF to everyone, Yes, No or on the fence, 6pm on a week night was an awful slot for the meeting
'No' still managed to outnumber 'Yes' by close to 100 to 1 ;) :D
Could that be because on the whole they are alot older and retired/around more in the day or a business only open till 5? (No offence intended on either side). The YES campaigners that i know of have young children or work at that time. Many people don't get home till at least 6.
MIA. have members of every age, watch the videos , newspaper reports and the like. I always think it's so funny when people refer to MIA members as middle class, middle aged etc it's silly to stereotype people and if you only knew you would find it funny too ;D
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I have first hand experience of similar situations in Hyde and in New Mills. In the former, where I lived for a while, since Morrisons and ASDA set up shop (close to the centre of town), smaller food shops have fallen by the wayside. There are now no independent butchers, bakers/confectioners or proper grocers' or greengrocers' shops .....
I think the owners of Hibbert Family Butchers on Clarendon Place (just over from Morrisons) may be surprised to hear this. Similarly with the owners of the bakers/confectioners, The Cake Shop, on Bennett Street.
Harry that's two in a town. I used to live there and there were lots of independent traders Hyde is nothing like it used to be ! Ask the people who come to Marple to shop in our small shops or better still ask my family who live there they are so angry of the demise of their close community and local shops :D
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MIA. have members of every age, watch the videos , newspaper reports and the like. I always think it's so funny when people refer to MIA members as middle class, middle aged etc it's silly to stereotype people and if you only knew you would find it funny too ;D
Well, silly or not in your mind, we are all allowed an opinion surely, to make a suggestion as to why more members could not attend at a certain time? Those factors mentioned could affect who could make the meeting. I have read many reports (not seen the meeting one yet but intend to view it when I can).
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lets have a look at the shops it wouldn't affect the dentist, the cafe,the light shop, wallpaper shop,Paul Howard's,the wool shop,the art shop, icing on the cake,clothes shop,this is just a small proportion, but when you look at market street as a whole we have specialty shops that a supermarket wouldn't affect, because Marple is special people would still go to specialty shops.
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Exactly.. plus over 7000 people who will not change their shopping habits.
Surely the local shops are safe?
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So supermarkets dont' sell lighting or clothing or have their own cafe or dry cleaners etc? OK - will settle for losing Greggs, Bargain Booze, two greengrocers, Superdrug, the stationers, newsagents, Boots, printshop, butchers, delicatessen, two florist shops, two hardware stores... Maybe the shops in Marple who have the NO posters in their windows are just being perverse?
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Exactly.. plus over 7000 people who will not change their shopping habits.
Surely the local shops are safe?
. You have assured us they will be safe, so both myself and the shop keepers will sleep well tonight :-\
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I think you'll find I was asking a question MM.
But, working on what you tell us..
MIA state that they have over 7000 signatures of shoppers who are opposed to a supermarket. A figure that is rising all the time.
These individual signaturies are people who have signed the petition on Market Street etc.
Why would these people whose feelings are strong enough to sign the petition suddenly stop shopping there.
(genuine question)
armed with that information about potential footfall.. I might look at opening a shop myself!
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Seeing as you think MIA is a lost cause you certainly use the information.
It is well known that supermarkets strive to undercut local traders to fight off competition, they lower their prices and then when they put the said shop out of business there ceases to be competition so they fix the price, also they use loss leaders to get people in. Once a town centre starts to lose shops shoppers would be more reluctant to use a half empty shopping area and Just do a one stop shop.
I am sure you know this already so I hope you just dont want me to put it on here so you and Davey Boy can pick holes in everything I say. Have you watched the video yet ? There's a women on there who talks a lot of sense :-\
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Excellent post! ;)
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In Marple's case, it's a safe bet that those people who say that a big supermarket will be a good thing because it will be cheaper than the Co-op will be disappointed. I'd put money on the two of them getting in cahoots and fixing prices as has happened in most places where there have been "competing" supermarkets.
Isn't that illegal?
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The big supermarkets are always paying very large fines for price fixing.They can afford too.
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Exactly.. plus over 7000 people who will not change their shopping habits.
Surely the local shops are safe?
Sorry but when I signed the petition I did not see the statement about having to do 100% your shopping in the local shops before signing.
I thought it said about having objections to a new supermarket being built for a variety of reasons,
i.e. demise of local shops, traffic and change the community forever.
Maybe I misread it, I'll check it out next time I sign it again ;)
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Seeing as you think MIA is a lost cause you certainly use the information.
I don't remember saying MIA is a lost cause, perhaps you can show me where that comment is.
I actually think MIA* could be of great benefit to Marple. I actually admire the energy that some of you put into it. Fair play.
I can't help picking holes in an argument that's flawed, but I am merely playing Devil's advocate.. and I like the debate.
It's the rediculous comments about demolishing the swimming baths, building a dual carriageway etc. They are truely bizarre. and I also think it's wrong for this kind of talk to have been used to gain the signatures on the petition.
I wonder how many people who signed fearing the worst, when seeing the actual plans (IF they ever should arrive) will think, oh actually it's not that bad?
and for the record -
I don't want a 24hr big supermarket on Hibbert Lane.
*or some other democratically elected group
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Seeing as you think MIA is a lost cause you certainly use the information.
I don't remember saying MIA is a lost cause, perhaps you can show me where that comment is.
I actually think MIA* could be of great benefit to Marple. I actually admire the energy that some of you put into it. Fair play.
I can't help picking holes in an argument that's flawed, but I am merely playing Devil's advocate.. and I like the debate.
It's the rediculous comments about demolishing the swimming baths, building a dual carriageway etc. They are truely bizarre. and I also think it's wrong for this kind of talk to have been used to gain the signatures on the petition.
I wonder how many people who signed fearing the worst, when seeing the actual plans (IF they ever should arrive) will think, oh actually it's not that bad?
and for the record -
I don't want a 24hr big supermarket on Hibbert Lane.
*or some other democratically elected group
I'm in pretty much full agreement with this. Politics is all won in the centre these days as we know, and the same applies to local issues. I do think MIA have been shooting themselves in the foot with the alarmism and a hard line anti college stance. It may have a short term gain in terms of petition signatures but in time it will put more and more people off, and the common consensus is that we're in this for the long haul. You have to be as inclusive as possible with this kind of thing. I don't think activities such as picketing the college is going to win over hearts and minds.
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I agree with the above two posts. I also think the campaign is abit extreme (not sure if that is MIA itself or some vocal members). Also the personal attacks on people etc. has led me to remain on the fence and sympathising with YES. If it were a more reasoned debate then it would be better. Such as them acknowledging that it would be good for those on a low income to have choice BUT it is outweighed by traffic etc. But simply telling people to get a bus etc. is not a balanced mature argument in my view. Both sides should be acknowledged (and there are very good arguments either way) and THEN say why overall you are in favour of YES/NO. Not just dismiss everything the other side are coming out with. It also seems there is some hypocracy and NIMBYism for some members of NO. Again, not sure if that is the more vocal members colouring my view. It seems people don't mind going out of Marple to Morrisons etc. and adding to traffic in those areas but wanting to keep their own backyards clear.
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I agree with the above two posts. I also think the campaign is abit extreme (not sure if that is MIA itself or some vocal members). Also the personal attacks on people etc. has led me to remain on the fence and sympathising with YES. If it were a more reasoned debate then it would be better. Such as them acknowledging that it would be good for those on a low income to have choice BUT it is outweighed by traffic etc. But simply telling people to get a bus etc. is not a balanced mature argument in my view. Both sides should be acknowledged (and there are very good arguments either way) and THEN say why overall you are in favour of YES/NO. Not just dismiss everything the other side are coming out with. It also seems there is some hypocracy and NIMBYism for some members of NO. Again, not sure if that is the more vocal members colouring my view. It seems people don't mind going out of Marple to Morrisons etc. and adding to traffic in those areas but wanting to keep their own backyards clear.
Re:- Comment about going out of Marple to Morrisons.
Morrisons or Safeway when it was built, is on a site that was previously a industrial area not area designated for educational or residential
purposes.
Also that area as always a large amount of traffic for decades,i.e. within in plenty of time for those people to decide to move there
to realise what the traffic etc was like.
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Re:- Comment about going out of Marple to Morrisons.
Morrisons or Safeway when it was built, is on a site that was previously a industrial area not area designated for educational or residential
purposes.
Also that area as always a large amount of traffic for decades,i.e. within in plenty of time for those people to decide to move there
to realise what the traffic etc was like.
Fair point about certain sites but my general point was that for some people it is acceptable to contribute to increased traffic in neighbouring areas yet being aghast at anything that may add traffic to their own areas. This is seen as abit hypocritical to some people. This isn't just my opinion, even people on the Hazel Grove website and newspapers, as well as people I have spoken to, have made the point.
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Tricky I am the one who reported about the swimming baths on the first thread re ASDA/Tesco this was long before MIAwas formed. My friend who I cannot name as they are still employed by CAMSFC were invited to some kind of meeting with who they said was Tesco and the principal. They were allowed to ask questions and one of those questions was about congestion/traffic the representative was the one why informed all present that the plans were to put a roundabout at the bottom of the new road. The issue of the baths was them spoke about and this was when they were informed that if the proposals went ahead the swimming baths would be relocated on the Buxton Lane sight
I posted all this and then all staff concerned in that meeting received an email saying that given all this had leaked out there would be no further communication from the corporation to staff until the deal was finalised, these emails were the ones I posted on this site and CAMSFC contacted admin to have them removed which he had to do due to legal reasons, but I still have them.
MIA do not scare monger in fact the opposite as we have information that we have chosen not to put on the web. As I have said before, like you I am not opposed to supermarkets we live thank god in a democracy so I believe people should shop where they want to without question. All I am opposed to is a supermarket on HIBBERT Lane ! I don't think I can say this any clearer !
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Tricky I am the one who reported about the swimming baths on the first thread re ASDA/Tesco this was long before MIAwas formed. My friend who I cannot name as they are still employed by CAMSFC were invited to some kind of meeting with who they said was Tesco and the principal. They were allowed to ask questions and one of those questions was about congestion/traffic the representative was the one why informed all present that the plans were to put a roundabout at the bottom of the new road. The issue of the baths was them spoke about and this was when they were informed that if the proposals went ahead the swimming baths would be relocated on the Buxton Lane sight
I posted all this and then all staff concerned in that meeting received an email saying that given all this had leaked out there would be no further communication from the corporation to staff until the deal was finalised, these emails were the ones I posted on this site and CAMSFC contacted admin to have them removed which he had to do due to legal reasons, but I still have them.
MIA do not scare monger in fact the opposite as we have information that we have chosen not to put on the web. As I have said before, like you I am not opposed to supermarkets we live thank god in a democracy so I believe people should shop where they want to without question. All I am opposed to is a supermarket on HIBBERT Lane ! I don't think I can say this any clearer !
Can I add that it is ADSA who is the favoured supermarket so the comment about the swimming baths becomes nil and void as you say it was Tesco who said it?
The council members even told you its not true! If a supermarket does get built on Hibbert Lane and the supermarket wanted to knock the baths down the the council have already said its something they don't want?
Also I would think again about saying it was friend of yours who told you... that is really unfair on your friend, that person still has to work there and word of mouth gets about, what about that person's job if the wrong person tells Ms Cassidy?
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Seeing as you think MIA is a lost cause you certainly use the information.
It's the rediculous comments about demolishing the swimming baths, building a dual carriageway etc. They are truely bizarre. and I also think it's wrong for this kind of talk to have been used to gain the signatures on the petition.
I wonder how many people who signed fearing the worst, when seeing the actual plans (IF they ever should arrive) will think, oh actually it's not that bad?
That's a point I've been making for the a while. It is my opinion (purely opinion, with no facts, figures, or DeepThroats to back it up) that when the planning application is finally submitted, a lot of people who have signed petitions, and been very anti-supermarket will look at it and go "oh, is that all. And they're going to improve the Stockport Road junction that causes all the traffic-jams in the centre of marple, and they're going to turn the open space next to the college into an actual useable park, instead of a tatty piece of grass, cool, bring it on".
I'm with Tricky, in that I don't want a supermarket in Marple either. But I do think that, MIA and some of their more vocal supporters are taking the wrong track, and have focused on the wrong things - eg, instead of proving that the College don't need to sell the land and going after them for taking the easy way out, they've gone after them for selling to the highest bidder, something which MIA acknowledge they are legally required to do!
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Tina there were three supermarkets at first in the running, you must be aware of that ??? this is why Tesco was mentioned. Also it would be now hard to identify why my friend is because more and more staff have come forward and spoke about the said meeting and how staff were informed not to speak outside the college Debate. Tina try not to score points please its getting so so predictable and oh so boring ! ;)
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Tina there were three supermarkets at first in the running, you must be aware of that ??? this is why Tesco was mentioned. Also it would be now hard to identify why my friend is because more and more staff have come forward and spoke about the said meeting and how staff were informed not to speak outside the college Debate. Tina try not to score points please its getting so so predictable and oh so boring ! ;)
I'm not trying to score points, I know there was a few in talks. But you said it was a person from Tesco in the meeting who answered the question about traffic...who in turn said about the swimming baths. I was only saying if it was Tesco's who said it then it needs to be nil and void as we know it is ASDA who is the favoured supermarket.
As for the member of staff. yes maybe more have since spoken up, my concern is that the original person could be named and then loose their job.
thats all no points to be scored
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Tina.. I don't think you need to worry.. noone will lose their job for talking to people or sharing emails. Unless its in their contract not to and I'm guessing an org like the college wouldnt have thought of that!
And if thats what Tesco were offering.. and the college have gone for asda, then asda must have a "better" deal on the table!!
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Tina.. I don't think you need to worry.. noone will lose their job for talking to people or sharing emails. Unless its in their contract not to and I'm guessing an org like the college wouldnt have thought of that!
I don't know, these days, almost every organisation, for even the most "lowly" of staff, usually has a clause about sharing confidential information, and failing that, a clause about bring the organisation into disrepute.
Now the disrepute clause may not stand up to examination at an employment tribunal in this instance, but that wouldn't stop someone initially getting sacked, and then going through a lot of grief until it got overturned.