Marple Community Forum & Noticeboard

Local Community => Local Issues => Topic started by: admin on January 24, 2009, 03:12:35 PM

Title: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on January 24, 2009, 03:12:35 PM
British Waterways are planning to redevelop their yard at Marple Wharf, between Bridge no.1 at Top Lock and Bridge no. 2 near to the Ring o' Bells.

The plans will be available for viewing on Friday 30th January 2009 at the warehouse in the yard between 3pm and 7pm.

H2O reps will be available to answer questions.

I understand that these plans will include taking the mooring away from the New Horizon's narrowboat for the disabled, which I don't believe will be a popular decision amongst the people of Marple.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: alan@romiley on January 24, 2009, 07:18:02 PM

My concern is about the possible increase in road traffic to service the proposed development.

The risk of Lockside, one again becoming a "ratrun" for vehicles avoiding town center to get up Church Lane.

I would offer no objection if either end of the canal yard was closed up permanently to vehicular traffic, with the exception of pedestrian access opening.

Will there be a provision for the "New Horizons" without charge for as long as the vessel is in service?
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: wolfman on January 28, 2009, 04:09:59 PM
Charity could be sold down river
by Matt Davis
28/ 1/2009


A MARPLE charity that offers canal trips for disabled people may be forced to find a new home if proposals for a new development go ahead.

British Waterways and H20 Urban LLP are looking to redevelop a grade II listed warehouse at Marple Yard, off Lockside, by the Macclesfield canal, into residential accommodation.

But the proposals will affect New Horizons, a charity which moors its 70-foot canal boat on the water by Marple Yard - and the charity has been told it will have to move on after this season finishes.

Marion Eyers, New Horizons’ information officer, said: "We have to be off the mooring by the beginning of next season. It will cause a problem because at the moment we have nowhere else to moor it. We need access for disabled people, wheelchair access, and we need buses to be able to get near the canal and the spot we have on Marple Wharf is perfect. We want to stay in Marple as the community has done a lot to support the charity and many volunteers are from the area. But at the moment we do not know what is available - this new development could cause us problems."

A British Waterways spokesperson confirmed it would be helping New Horizons relocate to a new home.

The refurbishment would involve two units and nine new-build dwellings at the site and a public consultation will be held this Friday (January 30) between 3pm and 7pm in the warehouse to discuss the plans.

Richard Thomas, Development Manager of H2O Urban LLP, said: "Our team has worked hard to develop proposals to ensure the future of the existing buildings on the site through providing some attractive and interesting places for people to live.  We look forward to presenting these proposals to the public and taking the scheme forward for re-development."

Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: certa cito on January 28, 2009, 05:57:08 PM
If I am reading this correct they are trying to develop the yard close to the lockside end. Just an idea (no idea of the admin involved) but what about NH building a purpose built building at the other end (church street/church lane) something like having its own under cover marina into the yard (where the old garage used to be). It may be pie in the sky but it would be sad to see the NH go from Marple.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: alan@romiley on January 29, 2009, 11:51:40 PM

I would not be surprised if the Church Lane end of the site might eventually be part of the same long term plan.

How nice it would be if Stockport MBC bought the whole site and perhaps entered into a joint venture with other agencies and have the whole area dedicated to leisurely youth activities sea scouts boating etc and of course the New Horizons.

Just a thought
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on February 01, 2009, 10:18:11 AM
I've moved this topic from Events to Local Issues as I imagine there will be continued local interest. Here's a picture of the proposed development for anyone who wasn't able to make it to the consultation:

(http://www.marple-uk.com/pics/wharf_development.jpg)

There were quite a lot of other people there when I had a look at the plans. I didn't hear anyone express support and there were several quite vocal objections. My own comments submitted to BW are as follows (wishful thinking maybe but it is what I think):

I am disappointed at the proposals to turn the grade II listed warehouse into private dwellings. I believe this building could be much better used by BW to provide services to the boating community and to the public. Such uses could include a heritage centre / boating museum / boating centre / cafe / restaurant / tourist information with the selling of souvenirs and boating supplies.

Removal of the toilet block and sanitary station will make Marple a less attractive stop-off point for passing boaters and reduce the local tourist trade from boating. I believe BW should be seeking to improve the facilities for boaters at Marple, not remove them, and this could be done in conjunction with making the warehouse into a heritage centre / boating museum / boating centre.

I object to the removal of the mooring provided for New Horizons, the narrowboat for the disabled and would not wish to see this excellent charity moved away from Marple. I believe improved facilities for New Horizons could be provided by giving them a mooring alongside the warehouse in conjunction with turning it into a heritage centre / boating museum.

I believe that turning the warehouse into a heritage centre / museum / boating centre may mean less short term profit for BW but would lead to long term benefits for the local community, the boating community and the disabled who would use the New Horizons boat.

I also feel that the separate development of the BW site and the site adjacent to it nearer to Church Lane will be detrimental to the overall impact on the area. It would make far more sense for these two sites to be combined and developed as one by BW.


I understand that New Horizons are keeping their powder dry until they have met with BW in March. If they wish to use the website to publicise their views after this meeting we will be happy to oblige.

What are your views on these development proposals? As usual with these things there is not much time to have a say. If you want to you should email them to enquiries.northwest@britishwaterways.co.uk or write to Marple Consultation, H2O Urban LLP, 26 King Street, Manchester, M3 6AY before Friday 6 February 2009.



Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Barbara on February 01, 2009, 10:27:23 AM
Very well argued, Mark.  I am sure you speak for a lot of us.
I voiced the opinion that the viewing was very poorly advertised - many people in Marple were completely unaware of it.  I am also concerned about the extra car traffic which would be generated if this development goes ahead as depicted.  The houses all have provision for 2 cars (both of which would be parked on the road somewhere as there is no storage space in the houses so the garage would be used for that!) so there will be probably around 30 extra vehicles in the immediate vicinity.  I also think the density of the housing is too much, and of course there will be even more houses when the former garage site is eventually developed. 
I said that a proper public meeting would have been a better way of introducing this project, so that the plans of both the developers and BW could have been explained properly. 
I look forward to hearing what other people thought.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: alan@romiley on February 03, 2009, 12:14:24 PM
I received a circular letter from "BW" about a week before the event, inviting me to attend.
I presume this is because I am a nearby resident.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on February 10, 2009, 08:55:19 PM
Here's the text of a letter delivered to properties near to the development by concerned local residents last week:

PROPOSED CANALSIDE DEVELOPMENT

Are you aware that British Waterways are planning to develop the area along the canal between the bridge at Top Lock and the bridge near the Ring O’Bells ?

The plan is to convert the BW office into two homes and build a further nine houses along this part of the canal.  This is in addition to the three houses planned at the Ring O’Bells end, for which planning permission has already been granted to another company.

There was a consultation event at the BW office on Friday 30th January.
See overleaf for a copy of a photo of the proposed development on display at the event.

The planners claim this design “will enhance the site and positively contribute to the local area”, and is “an appropriate use that will deliver a positive future for the historic site” and “enhance the setting of the conservation area”.  There appeared to be little support for the scheme at the event, and those present were surprised that more local residents had not been notified of it.

Amongst the many concerns expressed were:
·   conversion of the BW office (a Grade II listed building) into housing;
·   loss of this unique stretch of canal to houses;
·   how would the proposal “positively address the canal” as it does not reflect the local heritage?
·   potential of increased traffic along Lockside, Suttons Lane and Brickbridge Road (despite the planner’s reassurances to the contrary because of planned bollards at the Lockside end);
·   loss of New Horizons boat for the disabled to an alternative location;
·   loss of moorings and facilities for boat users.
What are your views on the proposal?
You can e-mail your views to “enquiries.northwest@britishwaterways.co.uk” or write to
Marple Consultation, H2O Urban LLP, 26 King Street, Manchester, M3 6AY, “ideally before Friday 6 February 2009, but those received in advance of planning submission will be considered”.
Please send a copy to Stockport's Conservation Officer (paul.hartley@stockport.gov.uk), Marple Civic Society and local councillors.
If you did not know about the consultation event you should write to complain about that, too!

Keep an eye on the Marple Website (www.marple-uk.com) for updates
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Dave on February 11, 2009, 08:27:33 AM
I had a look at the proposals the other day and I think they are good.  That short stretch of the canal between Top Lock and Church Lane is very run down - it's the last really grotty bit of canalside left in Marple.  The proposed housing looks appropriate, and I think the area will benefit from this plan.  And by the look of them they should be 'affordable homes', which are badly needed.

Obviously a new berth will have to be found for the New Horizons boat, but I should imagine that there are some possible options nearby.

While acknowledging that those living in the immediate vicinity will inevitably have their concerns, I think the points listed above can be addressed, and in some cases they are less than convincing. 

For example, as the BW office is a listed building, it can only be converted in a sympathetic way which does not damage its external appearance.   OK, in an ideal world we might prefer to see BW convert the office into a visitor centre or cafe, but that option is not on the table and in the current financial climate I doubt whether it ever could be.  In the real world, the viability of this proposal will almost certainly depend on the value of the housing to make it all stack up financially.   No housing = no improved canalside.

And as for the 'loss of this unique stretch of canal', well, as I suggested above, it is unique, but hardly in a positive sense - in fact, it has become uniquely grotty!   Maybe we should be pleased that BW want to do something about that? 
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Barbara on February 11, 2009, 09:46:25 AM
Depends whether 'affordable homes' start at a minimum of £250,000 which is what I was quoted by one of the development team.  By the time they are built (if at all!) I imagine the price will be considerably more than that.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on February 11, 2009, 06:14:48 PM
To clarify my own views on this, I don’t object to the construction of houses and I understand that they are essential to bring in the finance needed to do anything with the area.

What I do object to is the wholesale turning over of the complete site to housing without a thought for the local community, the boating community and the facilities that they need and also the turfing out of New Horizons from their long established berth in Marple.

I believe that the listed warehouse could be used for the purposes I’ve already described and that could be funded by the building of new properties. This way the facilities for boaters and for New Horizons could be improved rather than taken away and the waterway would be improved for the greater public benefit. This is one of British Waterways key objectives. The following text is taken from their own web site:

Delivering Public Benefit http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/our-work/delivering-public-benefit
Our waterways provide many non-financial benefits for the nation, and our work includes partnering organisations such as Local Authorities and Regional Development Agencies to enhance local public amenities and provide greater public benefit.

Increasing numbers of people are choosing our accessible waterway towpaths to perform their daily routines such as walking the dog, taking gentle healthy exercise and a traffic-free commute to work. We also provide access and good value facilities for canoeists and anglers, as well as a range of educational tools for schools.

Alongside this we are guardians of a 200-year-old living and working heritage, and carefully look after the enormous amount of wildlife that resides on and beside our waterways.

We do all of this with sustainability in mind, and so our outstanding national asset is well-kept for future generations to enjoy.


There are several examples of areas that have had much more sympathetic treatment than is proposed for Marple Wharf. With our historic and listed flight of locks that was saved by the determination of community groups I think that Marple Wharf merits similar treatment.

Hatton Locks
Probably one of the best-known Industrial Archaeology locations in South Warwickshire is the flight of locks at Hatton. Now in excellent condition and also serving as a mini heritage centre, (with excellent tea room), follow this links for some winter shots of the locks taken early in 2008. http://www.warwickshireias.org/hattonlocks.htm

Fradley Junction
A busy junction with a pub, boatyard, chandlery and gift shop. There are BW offices plus a water point, sanitary station and toilets down one lock to the east of the junction. http://www2.mihalis.net/canal/cgi-bin/gazette.cgi?where=$u683 (you will have to paste the $u683 bit onto the link after you've clicked it).

Anderton Boatlift http://www.andertonboatlift.co.uk/Visitors%20Area/About%20Us/yourvisit.html

To me the proposals for Marple Wharf are all take and no give. I would be much happier if BW were meeting a few more of their objectives and critera that they brag about on their web site.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Dave on February 12, 2009, 09:27:17 AM
To me the proposals for Marple Wharf are all take and no give. I would be much happier if BW were meeting a few more of their objectives and critera that they brag about on their web site.

Good point Mark.  I wrote in an earlier post 'No housing = no improved canalside', but if the new houses are being sold for 250K it it would surely be possible to make the scheme financially viable through the new-build houses alone, while restoring the old office building as a public amenity.
 
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on March 02, 2009, 07:04:55 PM
I was sent this copy of a letter from BW to Stockport MBC regarding the planning application for development of the plot at the Church Lane end of the Marple Wharf area. It was sent 4 years ago in response to the outline application for the site where the garages used to be and it is interesting to note BW's comments about the importance of the whole area in terms of it being a "strategic recreational route" and its heritage value. So why are they proposing to get rid of the facilities for boaters now?

www.marple-uk.com/pics/BWletter.pdf
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on March 21, 2009, 07:03:01 AM
Follow the link below to see a copy of the letter sent by Marple Civic Society to H2O Urban regarding the development proposals:

http://www.marplecivicsociety.org.uk/BW%20Warehouse%20Marple%201.pdf

For more about Marple Civic Society, see http://www.marplecivicsociety.org.uk
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Dave on March 21, 2009, 09:55:22 AM
It's unfortunate that the Civic Society should be adopting such an uncompromisingly negative position.  The scheme may have its shortcomings, but I think we need to be more constructive. 

The letter complains because this proposal would mean that this stretch of canalside would not have public access, but there is already ample public access to the canals in the immediate vicinity.  What we have between Top Lock and Church Lane is the last bit of really run down canalside in Marple, and we should be pleased that BW want to develop it at last.

We need to bear in mind that Defra are cutting BW's funding at the moment - they haven't got any money, and unless there is housing to fund any scheme, then there won't be any development.  What we should be doing is engaging constructively with BW.  For example, we could try to persuade them to restore the old office as a public amenity, using the new housing as an 'enabling development' to cross subsidise.  As Mark has pointed out, the old building, sympathetically restored, could make a really nice cafe/information/visitor centre.

Buut we won't get anything, I fear, if we are as negative as this.   :(
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on March 24, 2009, 08:00:50 PM
The following text is from a letter by local residents living near the development site to Waterways World magazine. Hopefully something will appear in the mag:

MARPLE WHARF – PROPOSED DEVELOPMENT

Marple Wharf (approx. 100 metres long) is located at the start of the Macclesfield Canal between bridge nos. 1 and 2, next to its junction with the Peak Forest Canal, and at the start of the descent through Marple's historic flight of sixteen locks on the way to the Ashton Canal.
The wharf area is currently owned by British Waterways, who use a Grade II listed warehouse building as its offices.  The wharf also houses BW workshops and storage areas, as well as a water supply point, rubbish disposal and recycling point, and a sanitary station for boaters.
In addition, the site includes the moorings of the disabled access canal boat “New Horizons” run by the Stockport Canal Boat Trust.  This boat was launched in 1981 by Prince Charles and it runs trips for people with disabilities, seven days a week between April and October, having carried over 2,000 passengers in 2008.
Photos are attached showing the current situation at the wharf.

Marple Wharf is of significant value in terms of the heritage of the canal as it symbolises the hub of the area’s former industries.  Since the mid-1800s the area has been available for boats to load and unload and replenish supplies – a living testament to those who built it.  The great scenic beauty of the canal attracts many visitors to the area throughout the year.

This has all now been put in jeopardy by BW’s proposals to develop the site, in a joint venture with H2O Urban Ltd.  A “Consultation Event” was held on 30th January 2009 at the site’s BW offices enabling invited local residents to view and comment on plans of the proposals, which include converting the Grade II listed building into private dwellings and the building of a further nine houses on the site.  The attached photos show the plans displayed by H2O at the event.

There is currently growing concern amongst Marple residents and the boating community regarding British Waterways’ proposals.  Marple Civic Society has written to British Waterways to express their reservations, concluding that the proposals are inappropriate to this historically important site and are, in fact, a wasted of the opportunity to develop the heritage site with a more sensitive approach, involving people from the local community in the scheme.
The loss of the Marple facilities will be an extreme inconvenience to boaters who regularly use this stretch of canal and will be a disincentive for boat users planning their holidays and cruising time to visit Marple, resulting in a loss of revenue for local businesses.

The following are further observations made by local residents:

-   The junction of the Macclesfield and Peak Forest Canals and the lock flight are key historical features at the heart of Marple, attracting local visitors as well as tourists to the area.  The canal architecture is the subject of guides, postcards and paintings and the stretch between the Top Lock and the Ring O’Bells bridges is particularly distinctive.  Far from the claim that the development will “enhance the site and positively contribute to the local area” and “positively address the canal”, a row of new houses would completely detract from the canal.  It would change drastically the view of the area from both bridges and therefore we disagree with your statement that this proposal offers “an appropriate use that will deliver a positive future for the historic site”
-   At present the view from the bridge on Church Lane towards the junction is particularly attractive and in keeping with the nature of the area with, usually, a number of canal boats moored up and few if any modern buildings in sight. It seems to me that to fill up the whole of one side of the canal with tightly packed modern houses would be an act of aesthetic vandalism
-   I cannot see how it will enhance the site. Currently the site provides an open aspect alongside some old canal buildings. The easy access to the canalside is particularly important for the New Horizons disabled boat. The canal at Marple is important for drawing visitors to it and its beauty comes from the fact that there is not wall to wall housing alongside it.
-   I am disappointed at the proposals to turn the grade II listed warehouse into private dwellings. I believe this building could be much better used by BW to provide services to the boating community and to the public. Such uses could include a heritage centre / boating museum / boating centre / cafe / restaurant / tourist information with the selling of souvenirs and boating supplies. I believe that (this) may mean less short term profit for BW but would lead to long term benefits for the local community, the boating community and the disabled who would use the New Horizons boat.
-   Whilst we accept that this area could be improved and are aware of the need to recuperate funds, we are very disappointed that British Waterways considers this an appropriate proposal for this site as it completely ignores its legacy. Had the proposal involved the development of the Grade II listed building for purposes linked to canal heritage, education and leisure, and the improvement of the area for boaters and visitors with some public community use foreseen, then your claim that it will “enhance the setting of the conservation area” would have been justified.  As it is, this would appear to be an incongruous cramming of houses into a tiny space with little genuine consideration of the nature of its unique surroundings, and the true impact it would have on them.


A letter in the May 2006 issue of Waterways World regarding waterside development made some interesting points when referring to an editorial highlighting the plight of our canals as a result of British Waterways striving for financial self-sufficiency:

-   In my experience, residents of such canalside properties begin to see the waterway as not only adding value to their premises, but also that it somehow belongs to them. This usually manifests itself through pressure groups lobbying BW to reduce visitor moorings, or the time allowed on each mooring within the area of the properties. Boats spoil the view, make noise and, at times, are considered undesirable when moored within the vicinity of such properties.
-   I know of examples where BW has capitulated to strong lobbying, and has then imposed restrictions on moorings near residential areas.
-   BW have a duty to ensure that the interests of the licence payer are upheld and, as custodians of the canal system, they must ensure parts of our heritage do not become highly desirable and expensive areas but “no go” areas for boaters.
-   A close eye needs to be kept on BW as it strives for its financial independence, otherwise the true cost will be the loss of the systems and its use as we know it.


This shows that if the planned development goes ahead we run the risk of losing not only the mooring spaces on the side of the canal alongside the new houses, which would inevitably be lost as they would adjoin the gardens of the proposed houses, but also those along the towpath on the opposite side of the canal – that is assuming boaters wanted to moor there at all, just a few feet away from the new houses.

The Marple Locks Heritage Society has said “We are concerned about the loss of amenities for boaters, in particular the loss of the sluice, water supply and waste disposal area. The removal of these facilities will impact on the business and local community as boaters will be less likely to stop in Marple.”

A privately-owned plot of land at one end of the wharf, adjacent to bridge no. 2 - which previously housed a car repairs garage - was sold in 2004 and an outline application was submitted to Stockport MBC by the new owners to build three houses.  British Waterways wrote to the Council in August 2004 with their comments, which, interestingly, included:

-   The Canal is designated as a Conservation Area, recognising its considerable environmental and heritage value. It is also adjacent to the Marple Yard complex of Canal Buildings, comprising two listed canal cottages, the listed boathouse and associated buildings. It is also adjacent to a listed canal bridge. The Church Yard Garage is therefore located in a sensitive area in environmental and heritage terms and any development on the site needs to be mindful of this setting.
-   The Canal is also designated as a “Strategic Recreation Route” within the current UDP (Unitary Development Plan). Indeed, the Canal at this point forms part of the Cheshire Ring, making it attractive to recreational visitors, both land and water borne. The garage site is therefore highly prominent to a large number of visitors and it is important that any development on the site does not prejudice the high quality corridor to which the UDP aspires. Likewise, the garage site offers a unique opportunity to provide a local landmark and identity of the whole of the Canal side area between Lockside and Church Lane.


The letter continued in a similar vein for three pages.  It is disappointing that BW have not taken these very same principles into consideration when preparing the own current proposals for the adjoining site.

Stockport MP, Andrew Stunell, who is also Vice President of the Macclesfield Canal Society, has been approached by residents regarding the issue and is following the matter closely.  The subject has also been raised in March 2009 at a Marple Area Committee meeting, a forum which gives the public the opportunity to hear matters which affect the lives of the local residents discussed by councillors.  The Manchester Branch of the Inland Waterways has contacted Marple Civic Society for further details, and has expressed initial concerns.
Other local associations, groups and individuals are still becoming aware of the proposed development and further reservations and objections can be expected.
Views on the proposed development may be posted on the forum on The Marple Website (www.marple-uk.com).

(The attached photos are reproduced with the kind permission of The Marple Website)

(http://www.marple-uk.com/pics/Wharf2.jpg)




Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: CTCREP on March 25, 2009, 12:23:23 PM
I haven't looked at this plan, but if it is anything like the one created for Compstall Mill it is very likely there is insufficient car-parking allocated. Two cars per dwelling is now the norm, as is providing garages too small to be used for cars so they get filled up with garden appliances etc and the cars go on the road. If you live or use the area this could be a problem.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Barbara on March 25, 2009, 07:48:17 PM
The parking problem was one which both I and my husband pointed out at the so-called 'consultation' event.  The representative we were talking to could not have been more dismissive - almost 'what do you know you peasant!'  Maybe the credit crunch will sort this development out, as it seems to have done at Compstall. 
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: wolfman on March 27, 2009, 06:05:42 PM
Essex today, Marple??????Ben Webster, Transport Correspondent
The contortionist’s skill required to squeeze a car into a tiny modern garage and climb out of a barely opened door will become redundant under plans to allow more generous parking provision on new housing estates.

A decade after the Government ordered developers to discourage car ownership by making it difficult to park, a local authority has produced new guidance that acknowledges that the policy has failed.

Far from reducing car usage, the policy has turned modern housing developments into obstacle courses for pedestrians and cyclists, who routinely find pavements and cycle paths occupied by cars with nowhere else to park.

A study by Essex County Council found that 78 per cent of garages were not being used to store vehicles, largely because a trend towards larger cars and 4x4s meant that many did not fit comfortably inside the space.

Related Links
What Essex man wants: indoor room for Mondeo
Essex has become the first authority to challenge the Government’s anti-car planning guidelines. It has issued draft guidelines that require larger garages and driveways, more parking spaces per dwelling, bigger on-street bays and at least 25 extra spaces for visitors for every 100 homes. The council has discussed its approach with several other authorities interested in relaxing limits on parking.

The new parking standards will be treated as a minimum rather than, as at present, a maximum. Developers will be free, for the first time in a decade, to offer as many spaces as they believe their customers will want.

Garages will have to be at least 7 metres by 3 metres (23ft by 10ft), as opposed to the existing guidance of 5 metres by 2.5 metres. Any garage smaller than the new dimensions will be treated as a storeroom and not counted towards the minimum number of parking spaces. Any home with two or more bedrooms will require at least two spaces.

The council found that planning guidance issued between 1998 and 2001 had created a severe shortage of spaces in many developments. Families had responded not by giving up their second car but by parking on narrow residential roads, blocking access for emergency services and refuse collection lorries.

There are more than 1.5 cars per home in 35 per cent of council wards in Essex. Nationally, there are more homes with two or more cars than there are homes without a car.

The proportion of car-less households fell from 45 per cent in 1976 to 24 per cent in 2006. Over the same period, the proportion of homes with two or more cars rose from 11 per cent to 32 per cent.

Norman Hume, the Conservative-controlled council’s Cabinet member for transport, said: “This new parking guidance is a radical break from the past failed approach which has seen local communities blighted by parked cars. We are effectively asking people whether we should continue living in neighbourhoods that often have the appearance of disorganised car parks or if instead we should look much more closely at how we accommodate the car to allow a better quality of life for our residents.”

The Campaign for Better Transport, which promotes alternatives to cars, said that Essex was undermining a decade of work to help people to become less car-dependent. Stephen Joseph, the campaign’s director, said: “Essex will create a new generation of car-dominated estates, causing congestion and pollution. In the guise of offering freedom, people will be locked into car dependency. Homes will be too spread out to make good public transport feasible.”

Mr Joseph said that Essex should have adopted the approach in Cambridge and Kent Thameside, where clusters of new homes are being built close to dedicated bus lanes offering fast, regular services.

John Jowers, Cabinet member for planning in Essex, said: “Whether you like it or not, you have to live with the car. Rationing parking spaces doesn’t stop people owning cars, it just means they park where it is most inconvenient for everyone else.”

He said that Essex was considering reducing the number of people commuting by car by imposing a charge on workplace parking spaces.

Times online author as stated
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Dave on March 28, 2009, 11:57:23 AM
Maybe the credit crunch will sort this development out, as it seems to have done at Compstall. 

I fear you're right, Barbara.  But if you click on the links in Mark's post you get a glimpse of what other parts of the canal network have got, in terms of visitor facilities.  It makes you realise that we (and BW) have yet to make the best of our own corner of the network.  If we could persuade BW to convert the old office into a visitor centre which could attract more boaters and other visitors to Marple, it could do a lot to help create employment and regenerate the town.

But the money has to come from somewhere, and if not housing, then where?   ???
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: PeterU on May 17, 2009, 01:26:06 PM
As a boater and great fan of the canal system it seems to me that the desecration of the British Waterways site at Marple is much to do with that organisation's desire to exploit whatever property comes to hand for the maximum profit rather than give any consideration to the historic importance of such a site.
British Waterways’ senior directors are part of the bonus culture which means they can take home many times more than any cabinet minister, including expenses and in recent years their focus has not been canals but property.
They do not seem to have realised that particular gravy train has come off the rails and their plans to turn the wharf at Marple into yet another development of flats and boxlike homes ignores the needs of the town and the local canal community.
Marple prides itself on being a canal town, with narrowboats on all the lamp posts, yet British Waterways have failed to keep even the designated mooring spots useable -  the bank has collapsed in many places and not been repaired for years.
Now it proposes to take away the facilities for boaters and will succeed, if not checked, in making Marple a place where it is impossible for boaters to stop, shop, have a pint and eat.
In addition, it is moving the well-used trip boat for the disabled in its greed to clear the development site and has yet to come up with a suitable alternative mooring.
All of this is particularly ironic as the British Waterways chairman, Robin Evans, is currently telling anyone who will listen that he wants to transform the organisation into a National Trust for the waterways, focused on retaining this massive and important national heritage for everyone from boaters to walkers, cyclists to fishermen and simply those who enjoy the remarkable engineering achievements of our ancestors.
Just how he squares this with the plans to desecrate the Marple site has yet to be explained by his public relations machine.

PeterU

Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Miss Marple on May 17, 2009, 02:27:35 PM
Hi just a thought but has anyone organised a petition against the proposed changes.as a group of interested residents it may be a great idea. Its not really enough to 'wait and see' (Seventeen Windows springs to mind )maybe we should become proactive before we have yet another change to our landscape! I will be interested in joining some form of organised group! Any ideas of how we start to have a say in our local community planning !   Just a thought !!!
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on May 17, 2009, 04:57:02 PM
You should both write to express your views to Marple Civic Society. They have formed a sub-group just to deal with this particular issue and they are collating the views of local people. Every letter or email that expresses objections to the proposals will help the Society battle on behalf of the community. And if you're looking for an organisation to join in order to have a say about this and other planning matters then consider joining the Civic Society.

Their posters say "Shouldn’t any new development celebrate Marple’s canal heritage rather than destroy it? There’s still time to voice your concerns about the proposal and help influence the decisions." Please send us your views by email to: alan(dot)postill(at)btopenworld.com or by post to: Marple Civic Society, 268 Windlehurst Road, Marple, SK6 7EN.

For more details check out the planning section of their web site at www.marplecivicsociety.org.uk
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Chairman Civic Society on May 25, 2009, 07:30:48 PM
Many thanks Mark for your support.

I can assure Miss Marple and others that it is by no means too late to write to us with their views on British Waterway's housing proposal for Marple Wharf. It is in fact very timely because we have just begun discussions with British Waterways and it is only public pressure which persuaded them to talk to us. Councillor Craig Wright has recently joined our steering group and will join us in discussions and meetings with BW.

The Society has received 61 communications from the public. With sufficient pressure we hope commonsense will prevail and a suitable scheme will be found for this iconic heritage site.

Please please write to us with you views, public pressure can have an enormous impact on matters such as this. Better still, pursuade your friends, neighbours and family to do the same and print a poster from our website to display in a prominent place to alert others.

We will be updating our website this week so visit www.marplecivicsociety.org.uk for updates

Send your emails to:mail@marplecivicsociety.org.uk. or write to Marple Civic Society 268 Windlehurst Road, Marple Stockport, SK6 7EN

Together we can make a difference
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: alan@romiley on May 26, 2009, 12:49:21 PM

What concerns me about this subject is that when and if, a planning application is submitted, will this council, notwithstanding the views of the residents and other interested groups, pass it, rather than run the risk of a costly appeal.

Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Belly on May 26, 2009, 07:22:17 PM

What concerns me about this subject is that when and if, a planning application is submitted, will this council, notwithstanding the views of the residents and other interested groups, pass it, rather than run the risk of a costly appeal.



Problem is its not enough for the Council just to turn things down just cause the local residents don't like it. Planning doesn't work that way.

Refusing planning permission always needs a proper defensible reason. Without such a reason the Council would simply be wasting money taking things to appeal - something that residents are always complaining to the Council.

Lets hope that some pressure can be placed on BWB to try to incorporate sensible suggestions. Just saying no all the time will in the long run, get Marple nowhere.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Dave on May 27, 2009, 09:22:11 AM
Lets hope that some pressure can be placed on BWB to try to incorporate sensible suggestions. Just saying no all the time will in the long run, get Marple nowhere.

Quite so, Belly.     What's on the table from BW at the moment is not ideal, but let's be honest, this is a semi-derelict stretch of canalside which has been badly in need of restoration for a long time.   The danger is that nothing will happen at all, leaving the area to decay even further.   What we need from the Civic Society is a constructive and realistic counter-proposal which is capable of being funded. 
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on June 14, 2009, 06:51:07 PM
The following email update has been distributed by Marple Civic Society to everyone who responded to their plea for letters and comments:

Dear Friends,

I am writing to inform you about the latest developments regarding Marple Wharf.

The Society’s steering group met for the second time with BW/H20urban on Monday 8th June 2009. It was a difficult meeting with little common ground so our chairman put forward a proposal to them for a 6 month feasibility study involving all interested parties and stakeholders.  The study would examine all issues related to the site and consider viable options that would preserve and enhance it.

We received an acknowledgment letter today from Richard Davies, Development Manager from H20urban saying that they are looking at entering into a period of consultation with the Civic Society and relevant groups. They say they will respond to our proposal and confirm how they intend to proceed within the next ten days, that is, by the 22nd June.

Our next move will depend upon “how they intend to proceed".

Thank you to all the 74 respondents who have written to us with their support, there is no doubt that this site is very close to the hearts of Marple residents and local groups.

We shall continue to work on your behalf and keep you updated by email and on our website.

Kind regards

Alan Postill, Chairman Marple Civic Society.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on July 05, 2009, 08:06:15 AM
The following email update has been distributed by Marple Civic Society to everyone who responded to their plea for letters and comments:

Dear Members and Friends

The Civic Society steering group met with BW/H2O Urban on Thursday 2nd July to discuss our proposal for a feasibility study to look at all options for the development of the site at Church Street (known to many as Marple Wharf).

I am pleased to tell you that agreement has been reached in principle to an extended consultation between Marple Civic Society and BW/H2O Urban.  Please see the attached joint statement for further details.  

I’ll keep you informed as the situation develops.  

We will have a stand at the Marple Locks Festival tomorrow 5th July (rain or shine!) so please call in to see us to discuss Marple Wharf and any other issues regarding Marple.

Thank you all for your continued support.

Regards

Alan Postill, Chairman

Joint Statement on the British Waterways site at Church Street, Marple

Having met with the Marple Civic Society Steering Group, British Waterways and its joint venture partnership H20 Urban LLP have agreed principles for an extended consultation in respect of the British Waterways’ site at Church Street, Marple.

British Waterways wishes to see a sustainable redevelopment of the Marple site which enhances this important canalside location and secure a new and viable use for the historic warehouse, consistent with its longer term aspirations as recently set out in 2020 A Vision for the Future of our Canals and Rivers.

British Waterways and H2O Urban LLP are committed to finding a solution which is in the long-term interests of the site, the area and the canal network.
 
In this respect:

Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on July 23, 2009, 07:34:43 PM
A new update has been distributed by Marple Civic Society today as follows:

Dear Members and Friends,

Re: Marple Wharf Development

Marple Civic Society and British Waterways joint working group for Marple Wharf met on 16th July 2009.

Please find attached the joint statement from the working group

Thank you for your support

Regards

Gillian Postill

Committee member and member of the joint working group

Joint Statement on the British Waterways Site at Church Street, Marple

Following their earlier agreement of the principles for an extended consultation in respect of the British Waterways’ site at Church Street, Marple, the Marple Civic Society Steering Group and British Waterways met on 16th July.

The objective of the meeting was to share information on an open, honest and transparent basis in order to establish the principles that may guide or influence any potential future development of the site.

This was facilitated through the participation of British Waterways’ Design Manager.

Matters discussed included the constraints influencing design and layout; the current and future built form; the current and future use of the waterspace including New Horizons; BW customer facilities; and potential future uses for the warehouse and the remainder of the site.

The next steps will be for these to be worked up in more detail as plan based options for the next meeting of the group on 27th August. In addition further information will be obtained as regards potential uses for the site. 
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Mr Marple on July 27, 2009, 12:49:47 PM
Having Sea scouts and the NH in one place is certainly ideal and the majority of Marple would probably agree.


I would not be surprised if the Church Lane end of the site might eventually be part of the same long term plan.

How nice it would be if Stockport MBC bought the whole site and perhaps entered into a joint venture with other agencies and have the whole area dedicated to leisurely youth activities sea scouts boating etc and of course the New Horizons.

Just a thought
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on August 25, 2009, 06:57:28 AM
British Waterways have postponed the next meeting with Marple Civic Society due on Thursday 27th August 2009 and it has been rearranged for Friday 11th September.

Therefore the next communication regarding Marple Wharf will be after 11th September 2009.

Don't forget to get in touch with MSC regarding use of the warehouse by local groups:

Quote
Marple Wharf – Community Facilities

(http://www.marple-uk.com/design8.jpg)

You may already be aware that British Waterways are planning to develop their site alongside the canal in Marple between the bridge at Top Lock and the bridge near the Ring o’ Bells (the area historically known as “Marple Wharf”), as it is surplus to their operational requirements.

BW’s initial plan for residential use only on the site was not well received by the local community and, as a result, Marple Civic Society (MCS) is now in joint consultation with British Waterways to look at alternative and more suitable options for the site.

BW is currently studying revised proposals on the basis of the discussions held with MCS.  Meanwhile, MCS is itself studying various options for the site, as it would like to see a more community-based development, for recreational and community purposes in line with the feedback from the community.

MCS would therefore like to determine the level of interest of local organisations, clubs and enterprises in using any existing or newly built facilities on the site, whether on a minimal part-time basis (such as an hour or two per week) or with a more substantial involvement.

Although discussions with BW are only at a very preliminary stage MCS would like to hear if you might be interested in using such facilities on the site - obviously with absolutely no commitment on your part at this stage.

Please e-mail them or, if you would like to discuss this further, do not hesitate to phone.

Gillian Postill (tel. 0161 427 1379)
Graham Clarke (tel. 0161 285 9357)
David Sumner (tel. 0161 449 9084)

Email wharf@marple-uk.com (will be received by all three Civic Society members listed above).

Posted on behalf of Marple Civic Society.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on October 05, 2009, 07:38:03 PM
As part of Marple Civic Society's Membership Drive they have published some new information about Marple Wharf and have agreed that it can be added here:

Dear Friends,

You wrote to Marple Civic Society earlier this year supporting our work for Marple Wharf. The work continues and we await the 3rd joint statement from BW which I hope to send to you soon.  I have attached an update and plan of the current situation at Marple Wharf..

It is now time for our annual membership drive which takes place this month. We will be delivering 800 membership packs to local residents and as someone who is interested in Marple issues I am writing to ask if you would consider joining us.

Marple Civic Society is a Registered Charity and is non political. Our aim is to be an independent voice in our community on local matters and to strive to make Marple a better place to live and work. We are particularly interested in our heritage (there are 120 listed buildings and four conservation areas within our area), protection of our environment (we monitor planning applications each month and show a keen interest in services provided by the Local Authority), and improvement of Local Amenities e.g. transport services.  We strive to take up issues which are of importance to the whole community as well as those which have a much more limited impact. Increasing our membership increases our influence on all these issues.


Being a member need not make a demand on your time unless you choose to come to our open meetings held four times a year in Marple Library.  However, to ensure that our voice is heard we do need to increase our membership. We have good relationships with local Councillors and the Council itself but they do need to know that we speak with some authority on behalf of the Community.

I do hope you will join the Civic Society and to find out more, please contact me for a membership pack or alternatively, you can join through our website www.marplecivicsociety.org.uk .
 
Kind regards
 
Gillian Postill

Committee Member

Report on Marple Wharf Developments:

www.marple-uk.com/misc/News_flash_for_membership_drive_2009_v2.pdf
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on October 15, 2009, 05:55:04 PM
The Third Joint Statement from Marple Civic Society and British Waterways is now available:

Dear Friends,

Re: Marple Wharf - 3rd Joint statement

Please find attached the 3rd joint statement received from British Waterways today. We are due to meet with BW again on 26th October 2009.

If you have any comments please email them to me so that I can feedback your views to the extended consultation group between Marple Civic Society and British Waterways.

Kind regards

Gillian Postill
Committee member

Email wharf@marple-uk.com (to send to all Civic Society members on the Wharf Committee).

Joint Statement on the British Waterways Site at Church Street, Marple

Marple Civic Society Steering Group and British Waterways met on 11th September as part of the continuing extended consultation exercise.

The objective of the meeting was to continue to share information and opinion on an open, honest and transparent basis and to develop further the principles that may guide or influence any potential future development of the site.

Matters addressed included:


The next steps will include for the constituent potential uses discussed to date to be developed in to composite plan based options for the whole site for discussion at the next meeting of the group on 26th October.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on January 06, 2010, 04:52:04 PM
As you know, Marple Civic Society has been in consultation with British Waterways since July 2009. We last met with them on 7th December and are due to meet with them again on 19th January 2010. The Regeneration Team at Stockport MBC has recently taken an interest in Marple Wharf and its potential and they will enter into discussions with British Waterways this month.

The latest joint statement is below but British Waterways has offered to provide a comprehensive review, including diagrams describing the work to date and the current situation. When this is available we will arrange a display in Marple Library for members and friends to view. Members of our steering group will be on hand to explain and answer questions. We expect the meeting will take place towards the end of January or beginning of February 2010.

Alan Postill
Chairman Marple Civic Society

Joint Statement on the British Waterways
Site at Church Street, Marple

Marple Civic Society Steering Group and British Waterways met on 7th December as part of the continuing extended consultation exercise.
The objective of the meeting was to continue to share information and opinion on an open, honest and transparent basis and to develop further the principles that may guide or influence any potential future development of the site. The meeting was held at the Grade 2* listed Navigation Warehouse at Wakefield, comprehensively refurbished for office use following a Development Agreement between British Waterways and CTP St.James Ltd.
Matters addressed included:

The next steps will include considering the external treatment of new build uses on the site, financially appraising the emerging options for the site and circulating the mooring basin analysis drawing. The next meeting of the Consultation Group in respect of the subject site will be on Tuesday 19th January at Marple office.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on March 09, 2010, 10:00:36 AM
Please find attached the joint statement from the meeting with British Waterways on 19th January, which we received this week.
 
We presented an update on Marple Wharf recently, in the form of a poster display, to members and friends in Marple Library; over a hundred people attended and gave us their views. We are in the process of collating those views and comments which will help to guide us on the way forward.
 
A summary of the results will be presented to BW at our next meeting with them on 22nd April 2010. In the meantime, we have agreed not to publish the results until after we have met with them.
 
We are disappointed that BW postponed the meeting arranged for 3rd March and cannot now meet us for almost two months. However, if there are any developments in the meantime we will keep you informed.
 
Many thanks to those who attended the display.
 
Kind regards
 
Gillian Postill
Committee member and member of the Marple Wharf Steering Group

Joint Statement on the British Waterways Site at Church Street, Marple

Marple Civic Society Steering Group and British Waterways met on 19th January 2010 as part of the continuing extended consultation exercise.
The objective of the meeting was to continue to share information and opinion on an open, honest and transparent basis and to develop further the principles that may guide or influence any potential future development of the site. The meeting was held at the Marple office.
Matters addressed included:

The next steps will include for MCS sharing the summary presentation with its members and BW giving consideration to the nature of a wider consultation process. The next meeting of the Consultation Group in respect of the subject site will now be held on Thursday 22nd April at Marple office.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on May 10, 2010, 05:39:40 PM
Please find attached the Joint statement following our meeting with British Waterways on 22nd April 2010. Our next meeting with them is on 27 May 2010.
 
You will find a summary of the results of our presentation to members and friends in the joint statement and we welcome any comments and suggestions you may have before 27 May 2010 which we can feed back to BW.
 
Britsh Waterways recently consulted with IWA and other boating groups to discuss the requirements of boating facilities at Marple Wharf. James Dunlop, Chairman of Stockport Canal Boat Trust for Disabled People Ltd., was also recently consulted by BW to discuss the requirements of New Horizons Boat for the Disabled.
 
Kind regards
 
Gillian Postill
Committee member and member of the Marple Wharf Steering Group

Joint Statement on the British Waterways
Site at Church Street, Marple

Marple Civic Society Steering Group and British Waterways met on 22nd April 2010 as part of the continuing extended consultation exercise.

The objective of the meeting was to continue to share information and opinion on an open, honest and transparent basis and to develop further the principles that may guide or influence any potential future
development of the site. The meeting was held at the British Waterways’ Marple office.

MCS provided detailed feedback in respect of their presentation to MCS members and friends on 23rd February 2010 of the joint work undertaken by the Consultation Group. This feedback was collated in response to a questionnaire completed by 98 attendees. The questionnaire was prepared by MCS in advance of the presentation meeting.

The main concerns and views expressed by Civic Society members and friends in response to the MCS questionnaire were that:


As reflected in the presentation document BW wished to see the New Horizons Charity Boat and the boating facilities retained at the site as part of any scheme. Moreover direct consultation was shortly to take
place between BW and both the New Horizons trustees and representatives of boating groups in respect of the options under consideration.

MCS also made a presentation which analysed certain planning and highway regulations in respect of the draft options and questioned the compliance thereof. This raised a number of issues of concern. BW
confirmed that the concept design was not finalised and that the design process had deliberately focussed on responding to the constraints and opportunities of the site identified through the consultation exercise.
Technical issues and detailed design are normally addressed at a later stage.BW confirmed that the matters raised in both presentations would be considered.

BW advised that since the date of the MCS Library presentation and following meetings between BW and Stockport MBC, it is BW ‘s understanding that the Council are seeking for the waterway corridor in Marple to provide a greater contribution to the community/recreation/tourism offer within the town. Moreover both public bodies hope that the existing contribution of the site for these uses can be enhanced as part of any future redevelopment.

BW updated MCS of the meetings that were planned to take place as part of the wider consultation process.

MCS presented a business plan for the use of the Toll House for community based use which BW will consider as part of the draft options for the site.

The next meeting of the Consultation Group in respect of the subject site will now be held on Thursday 27th May 2010 at the Marple office.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: jet on May 12, 2010, 06:18:38 PM
Since taking over the Ring O' Bells marple, I have been following the present proposed developments to the BW land opposite the Pub.
I have not seen the plans, and probable not Qualified to give much advice.BUT,has a local businessman I can not see the logic of building dwellings on this land.
I have now purchased a 72ft traditional Party Narrowboat , which  is purpose built to carry 57 passengers .She will have a fully certificated Licence with the MCA and a Premises Licence for a bar
This venture ,I hope will bring in much needed tourist and employment to the local economy of Marple .
It would help my little venture if we had a Heritage centre for the tourist to visit
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on June 05, 2010, 08:35:43 AM
Please find attached the joint statement regarding Marple Wharf following our last meeting with BW on 27 May 2010.
 
We welcome any comments and suggestions which we will feedback to BW.
 
Kind regards
 
Gillian Postill
Committee member and member of the Marple Wharf Steering Group

Joint Statement on the British Waterways
Site at Church Street, Marple


Marple Civic Society Steering Group and British Waterways met on 27th May 2010 as part of the continuing extended consultation exercise.

The objective of the meeting was to continue to share information and opinion on an open, honest and transparent basis and to develop further the principles that may guide or influence any potential future development of the site. The meeting was held at the Marple office.

Each of the parties provided feedback to the other in respect of recent meetings with stakeholder groups including Stockport MBC.

BW and H2O provided a verbal response to the planning and highway questions raised by MCS at the earlier meeting. Further information can be provided following more detailed architectural analysis of the scheme.

BW and H2O advised that the layout of the site was being reviewed following the recent liaison with stakeholder groups. Plans would be tabled once this review process had concluded.

MCS made a presentation on ‘Conservation and Heritage’ in the context of the site and the parties discussed issues arising there from.

BW re-affirmed its support for a community based use at the site as part of a commercially viable redevelopment. MCS have submitted a proposal for the Toll House which is being considered. Details of a potential water based recreational use for part of the site were provided to BW by MCS for consideration.

The next meeting of the Consultation Group will be held on a date to be agreed.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: bat man on June 16, 2010, 09:43:14 PM
I hope something is done soon,it looks a bit sad all that land going to waste..why not have some facilities for the many boats that come into our area,a boat chandlers,shop,supplies etc.........
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on September 08, 2012, 08:31:09 AM
This article by Katherine Vine appears in the 6 September issue of the Stockport Times:

'Under Threat' site in National Study

AN historical site under threat of development has been selected for a new project sponsored by English Heritage.
   
Marple Wharf has been named as a case study in the 'Protect Your Place' research project being carried out by organisation Civic Voice into how communities are protecting local historical sites.

Sarah Spurrier, who is leading the project, said: "We chose Marple because there is a great partnership among the different groups such as Marple Civic Society, Marple Heritage Locks Society and Mellor Archaeological Trust. "It is a perfect example of people working together proacatively."

Sarah says there will probably be no more than seven or eight case studies nationwide, and Marple is likely to be the only one in the north west.

Three years ago British Waterways, now the Canal & River Trust, put forward plans for a housing development on the site. Local people and groups, including the civic society, objected and the plans were put on hold.
   
However, Jeremy Harrison, development manager at the Canal & River Trust, says the development of Marple Wharf is 'still an aspiration of the trust.

"Any development will include improved facilities for boaters, retention of the New Horizon charity boat and potentially community facilities too," he added.

"We're presently looking at options that will deliver a comprehensive and sensitive development solution as opposed to specific proposals for isolated parts of the site."

Gillian Postill, from Marple Civic Society, said: "The wharf is a very important heritage site forming part of Marple's industrial revolution history.

"It has three listed buildings and two listed roving canal bridges. "It would be sacrilege to break the site's 200-year commercial history by turning it into a housing development."
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Dave on September 09, 2012, 07:19:09 AM
This is really encouraging. It shows what can be achieved if people get together. Well done Civic Society et al!
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Duke Fame on September 16, 2012, 01:42:45 PM
The houses look quite nice, what are the prices. It may be cheaper 'off plan'
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Ashley on June 22, 2015, 04:21:07 PM
Looks like something's on the move - there have been diggers excavating foundations all day. Does anybody have any news?
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: GM on June 29, 2015, 11:56:36 PM
According to Stockport council, planning permission was granted on 04/06/2015.

This was for five properties DC/058399
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: MLHS on September 11, 2017, 10:07:07 AM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Marple_Wharf_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1500307.jpg)

There are plans afoot, a planning application having been submitted to Stockport MBC, for the development of the land owned by CRT at the Marple Wharf.
The Canal and River Trust (ex British Waterways) plan is to build seven new houses and convert the historic warehouse at Marple Wharf, on the land they own at Top Lock.
The Planning Department are now the only people that can prevent this cultural vandalism.
An explanation of the background to this development, and how to appeal against it may be found here.

http://www.marplelocalhistorysociety.org.uk/images/pdfs/marple_wharf_development.pdf (http://www.marplelocalhistorysociety.org.uk/images/pdfs/marple_wharf_development.pdf)
Please read this.
Time is of the essence, as should you wish to voice your disagreement with this proposed development, the deadline is September 28th.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Dave on September 11, 2017, 11:13:19 AM
Our canals are one of Marple's greatest assets, and are of obvious historical importance. But maintaining them is seriously costly - I hate to think what the excellent work done last winter must have cost, rebuilding that section of stone wall between the aqueduct and Station Road.  But the CRT has to find the money to do such work, and that means realising the maximum value from unused or underused assets.

It would be great if the old warehouse at top lock could be 'developed by CRT jointly with the community, into an information and tourist centre for the canal network and local area', as the local history society suggests, but there needs to be a clear and financially viable plan to achieve that. Otherwise this opposition just comes across as the usual negativity.

We can't have it both ways. If we want the CRT to look after our canals properly, then we need to support them in finding the resources to do that.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: andrewbowden on September 11, 2017, 11:35:12 AM
Dave is spot on.

It's all very well saying "We want this, this, this".  But unless there is money, it's irrelevant.  Making a visitor centre will be a costly pipe dream, and frankly the council's just going to ignore any comments pushing for this because, well, it's a pipe dream.  Just don't even go there unless you've a business plan because it's a waste of time.  It won't work.  The planning committee would just look at it, shrug and move on.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on September 11, 2017, 12:37:18 PM
I've merged this new thread with the old one going back as far as 2009 on the same subject.

It does seem a shame that it is not possible to satisfy CRT's need to raise funds and to preserve our heritage as well. You see things like Marple Civic Society are proposing with historic canal buildings in many places and I'm not sure why it wouldn't be possible in Marple if there was a will to work together. There did seem to be some good progress being made over quite a few years but recently the Civic Society has withdrawn from discussions with CRT and CRT says (within their planning application) that MCS hasn't provided a business plan. Yet MCS's August minutes say that they do have a business plan, so I'm not sure what's going on or why discussions have broken down.

This quote from the document put together by the History Society and Civic Society seems pretty reasonable to me:

Quote
Our alternative
Although we don’t like such high density development and the lack of public access, we recognise the need for CRT to capitalise on its assets. Therefore we reluctantly accept the current proposal for new build housing, even though we would prefer fewer houses but we believe that the warehouse should be retained as close to its original form as possible. In their own site appraisal CRT acknowledge that the warehouse, toll house and toll cottages form an important part of the historic canal corridor.
 
We would like to see the warehouse developed by CRT jointly with the community, into an information and tourist centre for the canal network and local area, providing a convivial place for both the community and visitors. The upper floor can be hired out to local groups for their regular use, bringing in additional revenue. The two historic artefacts (crane and weigh machine) could be moved to a place adjacent to the warehouse. A development such as this would preserve the key historic features of the site and it would even add value to the houses by providing a focus for them.

The rest of the document can be viewed via this link: http://www.marplelocalhistorysociety.org.uk/images/pdfs/marple_wharf_development.pdf (http://www.marplelocalhistorysociety.org.uk/images/pdfs/marple_wharf_development.pdf)

I'm not sure how well this is going to work for New Horizons either. It is good that there is a provision for them, as originally they were being asked to move elsewhere. However, the finish on the surfaces they would need to use to get to and from the boat is shown as cobbles (reclaimed setts) which is going to be very difficult for wheelchairs. Additionally, I understand it is proposed that they use the general service mooring to load passengers. How will that work if it is occupied - will NH have priority? I guess these issues are for New Horizon's to comment on and to tell us if they need support from the community to give extra weight to any concerns they may have. 
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Dave on September 11, 2017, 04:16:00 PM
It's good to know that the Civic Society have actually put together a business plan for the redevelopment of the warehouse as a visitor centre.  So they need to produce it.  If the the plan looks viable then obviously it would be a preferable solution to residential use.

The way to deal with unwelcome proposals is not to be negative, but to come up with a credible counter proposal.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: hatter76 on September 11, 2017, 06:12:07 PM
Sorry, don't understand why people are against this. Its been semi derelict for many years, attracting anti social behaviour. Giving the warehouse a purpose and building much needed homes can only be a good thing IMO!
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Ozymandias on September 11, 2017, 06:25:55 PM
The matter of the business plan is more complicated than it appears at first sight. CRT have signed over all their rights to a company called H2O. This is a joint venture between CRT and a property company. The development is being proposed by H2O and they are very much in the driving seat - CRT is effectively a sleeping partner but will take half the final profit.

The warehouse is worth much more with planning permission for conversion into a house so that is what H2O is aiming for. Without planning permission the warehouse is worth perhaps £50,000 but with it, the value rises to £250,000. H2O say they are willing to consider a business plan but it must be a plan that gives them £250,000. In other words, they are assuming that they will get planning permission for the warehouse. Moreover, they have set themselves up as judge and jury of any business plan that will be put forward. They have no interest in developing the canal and no interest in any community use. What they want is to move in, make a conversion, sell it and then go away. There is no long term interest.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: amazon on September 11, 2017, 07:45:31 PM
The matter of the business plan is more complicated than it appears at first sight. CRT have signed over all their rights to a company called H2O. This is a joint venture between CRT and a property company. The development is being proposed by H2O and they are very much in the driving seat - CRT is effectively a sleeping partner but will take half the final profit.

The warehouse is worth much more with planning permission for conversion into a house so that is what H2O is aiming for. Without planning permission the warehouse is worth perhaps £50,000 but with it, the value rises to £250,000. H2O say they are willing to consider a business plan but it must be a plan that gives them £250,000. In other words, they are assuming that they will get planning permission for the warehouse. Moreover, they have set themselves up as judge and jury of any business plan that will be put forward. They have no interest in developing the canal and no interest in any community use. What they want is to move in, make a conversion, sell it and then go away. There is no long term interest.
Very informative .Thank you .
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: andrewbowden on September 11, 2017, 10:34:39 PM
The matter of the business plan is more complicated than it appears at first sight. CRT have signed over all their rights to a company called H2O. This is a joint venture between CRT and a property company. The development is being proposed by H2O and they are very much in the driving seat - CRT is effectively a sleeping partner but will take half the final profit.

The warehouse is worth much more with planning permission for conversion into a house so that is what H2O is aiming for. Without planning permission the warehouse is worth perhaps £50,000 but with it, the value rises to £250,000. H2O say they are willing to consider a business plan but it must be a plan that gives them £250,000. In other words, they are assuming that they will get planning permission for the warehouse. Moreover, they have set themselves up as judge and jury of any business plan that will be put forward. They have no interest in developing the canal and no interest in any community use. What they want is to move in, make a conversion, sell it and then go away. There is no long term interest.

H2O Urban are a property development company.  They go in, they develop the site, they move on.  They don't want a long term interest.  That's not their job after all.  So let's not be particular surprised by the fact that their focus is on making money, for THAT is their business.  Their entire reason for existing is to develop sites for CRT, and making money for the two shareholders, one of which is CRT. 

Converting to housing makes them more money.  Money that would, of course, be partly used to redevelop the building.  Conversion to housing offers no risk - you make the house and move on.  Conversion to a visitor centre offers lots of risk because of funding.

  Someone might work out say three years funding, and then it dries up afterwards.  What then?  Covert to housing?  Well that is extra cost.  Plus you then have to consider planning permission, and here things get more awkward because now you are trying to take something away that previously existed.  It's one thing to deny the ability to setup something that didn't exist.  And it's a whole different thing to try take away the facility that did exist.  Even if it is one that failed. 

I totally get why they want to go with a safer option.  And i totally get why they are only prepared to counter changing the plan if they have solid financial commitment. 

They are protecting the CRT from financial risk.

What's the alternative in all this?  It's a shabby looking building doing very little.

Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on September 12, 2017, 06:46:50 AM
H2O Urban are a property development company.  They go in, they develop the site, they move on.  They don't want a long term interest.  That's not their job after all.  So let's not be particular surprised by the fact that their focus is on making money, for THAT is their business.  Their entire reason for existing is to develop sites for CRT, and making money for the two shareholders, one of which is CRT. 

Converting to housing makes them more money.  Money that would, of course, be partly used to redevelop the building.  Conversion to housing offers no risk - you make the house and move on.  Conversion to a visitor centre offers lots of risk because of funding.

  Someone might work out say three years funding, and then it dries up afterwards.  What then?  Covert to housing?  Well that is extra cost.  Plus you then have to consider planning permission, and here things get more awkward because now you are trying to take something away that previously existed.  It's one thing to deny the ability to setup something that didn't exist.  And it's a whole different thing to try take away the facility that did exist.  Even if it is one that failed. 

I totally get why they want to go with a safer option.  And i totally get why they are only prepared to counter changing the plan if they have solid financial commitment. 

They are protecting the CRT from financial risk.

What's the alternative in all this?  It's a shabby looking building doing very little.

But money isn't all that it's about, although that may be the case for H20 it isn't for CRT.
The Canal and River Trust is a charity with objectives that are primarily for the public benefit.
So maybe they should be seeking a balance between these objectives and focus a little more on 2.2 and 2.5, even if it means they have to invest some of the money they make from the houses back into the immediate area and even if it does present some risks in order to achieve a better balance of their objectives at Marple Wharf:

2. Objects

The Trust’s objects are:

2.1 to preserve, protect, operate and manage Inland Waterways for public benefit:
      2.1.1 for navigation;
      2.1.2 for walking on towpaths; and
      2.1.3 for recreation or other leisure - time pursuits of the public in the interest of their health and social welfare;

2.2 to protect and conserve for public benefit sites, objects and buildings of archaeological, architectural, engineering or historic interest on, in the vicinity of, or otherwise associated with Inland Waterways;

2.3 to further for the public benefit the conservation protection and improvement of the natural environment and landscape of Inland Waterways;

2.4 to promote, facilitate, undertake and assist in, for public benefit, the restoration and improvement of Inland Waterways;

2.5 to promote and facilitate for public benefit awareness, learning and education about Inland Waterways, their history, development, use, operation and cultural heritage by all appropriate
means including the provision of museums;


2.6 to promote sustainable development in the vicinity of any Inland Waterway for the benefit of the public, in particular by:
      2.6.1 the improvement of the conditions of life in socially and economically disadvantaged communities in such vicinity; and
      2.6.2 the promotion of sustainable means of achieving economic growth and regeneration and the prudent use of natural resources; and

2.7 to further any purpose which is exclusively charitable under the law of England and Wales connected with Inland Waterways;

provided that in each case where the Trust undertakes work in relation to property which it does not own or hold in trust, any private benefit to the owner of the property is merely incidental
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: andrewbowden on September 12, 2017, 09:11:16 AM
I'm sure someone could argue quite strongly that converting the warehouse to housing, gives the building a strong, sustainable future.  Thus 2.2 would be met by conserving the building in a new use.  It does not state that conserving buildings have to be in their original use after all.

As for 2.5, well you could argue on the detail of that one until the cows come home on that one.  But ultimately they do a lot of work already in that respect. 
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on September 15, 2017, 05:34:46 AM
Marple Civic Society has posted some more details and comments about this a couple of days ago:

http://marplecivicsociety.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/marple-wharf-planning-application-how.html
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: marpleexile on September 15, 2017, 07:16:32 AM
Marple Civic Society has posted some more details and comments about this a couple of days ago:

http://marplecivicsociety.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/marple-wharf-planning-application-how.html

Hmmm, what a load of NIMBY nonsense.

I read in their minutes the other week that they were aware that they were seen in some quarters as being a negative organisation that only exists to oppose planning applications - and used in their defence that there had been 25 recent planning applications and that they had only commented on one, forgetting to mention that it had been a negative comment and thus disproving the point they were trying to make.

So their objections are:

1 & 2 are basically objecting that the parking spaces and wheelie bin storage are too far from the front doors of the houses! Seriously, that's considered a reason to object to a planning application? Good job they weren't around 100 years ago or else my terrace house would never have been built!

3 & 4 I don't know enough about, but I'm surprised that it is something that should be considered in a planning application as sure that is a "business" decision for the Canal operators to sort.

5 is just a nonsense statement. The building is an industrial remnant. It'll never be used for it's original purpose again. Turning it into housing, so that there will be interested parties who have to maintain it, is probably the best outcome, and gives the Trust money to maintain the rest of the waterways.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Condate on September 15, 2017, 07:19:55 PM
I'm sure someone could argue quite strongly that converting the warehouse to housing, gives the building a strong, sustainable future.  Thus 2.2 would be met by conserving the building in a new use.  It does not state that conserving buildings have to be in their original use after all.

As for 2.5, well you could argue on the detail of that one until the cows come home on that one.  But ultimately they do a lot of work already in that respect.

Perhaps then the Trust's objects need to be changed to explicitly prevent developments like these and ensure that housing is not an acceptable use for any significant buildings.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: andrewbowden on September 15, 2017, 08:34:25 PM
Perhaps then the Trust's objects need to be changed to explicitly prevent developments like these and ensure that housing is not an acceptable use for any significant buildings.

Let us know when you manage that.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: andrewbowden on September 15, 2017, 08:42:54 PM
Hmmm, what a load of NIMBY nonsense.

I read in their minutes the other week that they were aware that they were seen in some quarters as being a negative organisation that only exists to oppose planning applications - and used in their defence that there had been 25 recent planning applications and that they had only commented on one, forgetting to mention that it had been a negative comment and thus disproving the point they were trying to make.

So their objections are:
  • Inadequate parking
  • Waste disposal
  • inadequate facilities and access for New Horizons trip boat
  • inadequate services for pleasure boats
  • a complete disregard for the unique heritage

1 & 2 are basically objecting that the parking spaces and wheelie bin storage are too far from the front doors of the houses! Seriously, that's considered a reason to object to a planning application? Good job they weren't around 100 years ago or else my terrace house would never have been built!

3 & 4 I don't know enough about, but I'm surprised that it is something that should be considered in a planning application as sure that is a "business" decision for the Canal operators to sort.

5 is just a nonsense statement. The building is an industrial remnant. It'll never be used for it's original purpose again. Turning it into housing, so that there will be interested parties who have to maintain it, is probably the best outcome, and gives the Trust money to maintain the rest of the waterways.

I am well up for mandating the warehouse is restored to its original use.

As for New Horizons, i would prefer to know their thoughts.  Do they tally?  Are they happy with the proposals.  Cos it wouldn't be the first time that loads of people have spoken on an organisations behalf on an issue the organisation have no problem with...
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Ozymandias on September 16, 2017, 05:24:10 AM
I can't speak on behalf of New Horizons but I can see that they are in a difficult position. Whether or not they pay a commercial rent for their facility, they are tenants of Canal and River Trust and therefore dependent on that organisation's goodwill. If they were to criticise the proposed arrangements they could be jeopardising their own future.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Dave on September 16, 2017, 02:41:52 PM
It's a pity it's come to this. I can't help thinking that if the Civic Society and the Local History Society, with support from SMBC, had got together with BW/ CRT years ago and submitted a bid to the Heritage Lottery Fund for the conversion of the old warehouse into a visitor centre, it all might have turned out quite differently. But it looks to be too late for that now.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: GeoffAbell on September 20, 2017, 05:53:15 PM
This is a planning matter and, as such, cllrs are bound to be impartial in this "quasi-judicial" matter.

However, I will say that a group has been trying to make The Wharf something of community interest for quite a while now.  It was also proposed that the 'derelict' bit of land next door is subject to a separate planning application.  Again this has been going on for a while.

On another note, this Sat (23rd) from 10 am to 2 pm, the toll house at the front will be celebrating a refurbishment and opens its doors.  I think cake is also provided.  So come to see a bit of history.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: amazon on October 01, 2017, 07:40:29 PM
Marple civic society have recomended refusall of this aplication .
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: andrewbowden on October 01, 2017, 08:21:05 PM
Marple civic society have recomended refusall of this aplication .

Shocked.  Shocked I am at this news...

Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on October 02, 2017, 07:02:47 AM
As Amazon says, Marple Civic Society has responded to the application:

http://marplecivicsociety.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/planning-application-dc067000-marple.html

I must say that personally I think they've made a very good case for rejecting the proposals on planning grounds.

A new petition has also been started here:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/save-marple-wharf

If you agree, please sign it and protect Marple's heritage!
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: andrewbowden on October 02, 2017, 09:03:59 AM
Well I for one look forward to our brave new future.  A building not being used for anything whilst people mess around with pipe dreams that mysteriously still haven't gone anywhere even after several years of not going anywhere.

Onwards to our glorious new world!

I don't say the planning application is perfect.  But let's be blunt.  The notion that the council should reject change of use in favour of some "maybe" change of use that they aren't even being presented with, is just daft.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: marpleexile on October 02, 2017, 03:22:17 PM
As Amazon says, Marple Civic Society has responded to the application:

http://marplecivicsociety.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/planning-application-dc067000-marple.html


To summarise for those who don't have the time to read it:
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Dave on October 02, 2017, 04:09:27 PM
However, I will say that a group has been trying to make The Wharf something of community interest for quite a while now. 

The last five words there tell their own story.  Sadly, if there had been a viable plan for an alternative use, it would have come to fruition by now. 
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Snowball on October 02, 2017, 05:41:17 PM
From the MCS objection document "it will be our Ground Zero"  (if the development goes ahead)

Geez c'mon.

I see they also take the opportunity to have a few digs at the pleasant new row of five houses further down the wharf, the development of which they also opposed.

There can't be many who think the houses are worse than the derelict, overgrown wasteland that was there before.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Blackfryers on October 03, 2017, 01:20:13 PM
The community has a viable use (café, heritage centre and community rooms) with a viable business plan, but Canals and Rivers Trust (CRT) have been intransigent and will not talk to us sensibly about a price (despite what they say). CRT are insisting that the community pay full residential rate for the warehouse (£0.25m for just the derelict shell). NO community plan could possibly be viable on this basis and CRT know it. The warehouse is an intrinsic part of the canal, and CRT should be looking for a partnership with the local community to run a joint facility, not trying to screw a quarter of a million pounds out of us. In fact, CRT really should be partners rather than seeking to off-load their canal heritage.

I also should clarify the Civic Society (MCS) objection. MCS is very keen to see the wharf developed for viable uses including housing, but this needs to be done in partnership with people in Marple, with a mixed development that retains community use, not by cramming as many houses as possible on a small site and telling the community to get lost. MCS is happy to see a good quality development including modern buildings and residential, but the development must be balanced, and enhance Marple. MCS even used planning/architecture students from Manchester University to develop alternative ideas, but designs were dismissed out of hand by  CRT. MCS still wants, even at this late stage to partner with CRT, but they are deaf. If anyone has any contacts at CRT where we could establish contact and discuss a partner hip, please let us know. 
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Dave on October 03, 2017, 02:49:58 PM
The CRT is a charity, and it is governed by the normal restrictions on what charities may and may not do. One thing they may not do is dispose of assets at less than their full value ('best consideration' in the jargon).  There are ways round that, but the consent of the Charity Commission has to be secured. This takes time and patience, and a lot of political pressure from MPs, local authorities etc. 

Blackfryers, you write
The community has a viable use (café, heritage centre and community rooms) with a viable business plan

I've looked for this on the MCS website, but it's not there.  However, what I did find was a document called 'Vision for Marple', published in January 2010.  This ends as follows:

NEXT STEPS
Form a partnership of interested organisations, principally Stockport MBC, British Waterways and Marple Civic Society to set up a Regeneration Committee to design, promote and deliver a Vision for Marple. The committee would co-op [sic] interested parties as required and would seek Heritage Lottery Funds and other sources of finance to assist in regenerating Marple to make it the "Jewel in the Crown" of Stockport MBC.

That was over seven years ago.  Did it happen? Was there an HLF application? if so, why was it unsuccessful?
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: amazon on October 03, 2017, 08:40:27 PM
The CRT is a charity, and it is governed by the normal restrictions on what charities may and may not do. One thing they may not do is dispose of assets at less than their full value ('best consideration' in the jargon).  There are ways round that, but the consent of the Charity Commission has to be secured. This takes time and patience, and a lot of political pressure from MPs, local authorities etc. 

Blackfryers, you write
I've looked for this on the MCS website, but it's not there.  However, what I did find was a document called 'Vision for Marple', published in January 2010.  This ends as follows:

NEXT STEPS
Form a partnership of interested organisations, principally Stockport MBC, British Waterways and Marple Civic Society to set up a Regeneration Committee to design, promote and deliver a Vision for Marple. The committee would co-op [sic] interested parties as required and would seek Heritage Lottery Funds and other sources of finance to assist in regenerating Marple to make it the "Jewel in the Crown" of Stockport MBC.

That was over seven years ago.  Did it happen? Was there an HLF application? if so, why was it unsuccessful?
Will be interesting to see if you recieve a reply
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: rsh on October 04, 2017, 10:42:48 AM
I’m glad to see the 500+ signatures already on the petition disagree with the shockingly negative attitude of many here.

Building some houses on that bit of wasteland, fine. But the wharf warehouse too? Isn’t that just a massive waste of a potential asset? If the Canal and River Trust were truly wanting to make a positive difference to Marple’s canals they’d use the funds from the new build houses to prop up the redevelopment of the warehouse into a heritage facility... the café of which could then bring in rolling funds, not a one-off sell off.

There are numerous case examples of them being involved with similar buildings around the country, why they have thrown in the towel here is beyond me, but I get a feeling they’ve smelt blood with the Marple property market values. Unfortunately, THEIR values shouldn’t be a race to cash in for short term gain.

Good on Marple Civic Society for (finally) being a bit louder about this. Perhaps having it almost blow up will focus everyone’s attention on it enough that Marple won’t let it be wasted after all. Projects like this don’t happen overnight, especially when the major party hardly seems cooperative (even just a quick scan of the planning documents gives this impression). It might be a struggle and it might take years, but saving this building from being closed off to the public for the rest of its existence with yet another bland residential conversion will be worth it.

If we can find thousands of pounds to build a skate park or save a single pub, surely we can come together to give Marple’s canals the centrepiece they need.

Sign the petition and add your comment to the planning application NOW.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Dave on October 04, 2017, 11:33:05 AM
Projects like this don’t happen overnight

Indeed. Or even in seven years, it seems.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: amazon on October 04, 2017, 11:52:28 AM
I’m glad to see the 500+ signatures already on the petition disagree with the shockingly negative attitude of many here.

Building some houses on that bit of wasteland, fine. But the wharf warehouse too? Isn’t that just a massive waste of a potential asset? If the Canal and River Trust were truly wanting to make a positive difference to Marple’s canals they’d use the funds from the new build houses to prop up the redevelopment of the warehouse into a heritage facility... the café of which could then bring in rolling funds, not a one-off sell off.

There are numerous case examples of them being involved with similar buildings around the country, why they have thrown in the towel here is beyond me, but I get a feeling they’ve smelt blood with the Marple property market values. Unfortunately, THEIR values shouldn’t be a race to cash in for short term gain.

Good on Marple Civic Society for (finally) being a bit louder about this. Perhaps having it almost blow up will focus everyone’s attention on it enough that Marple won’t let it be wasted after all. Projects like this don’t happen overnight, especially when the major party hardly seems cooperative (even just a quick scan of the planning documents gives this impression). It might be a struggle and it might take years, but saving this building from being closed off to the public for the rest of its existence with yet another bland residential conversion will be worth it.

If we can find thousands of pounds to build a skate park or save a single pub, surely we can come together to give Marple’s canals the centrepiece they need.

Sign the petition and add your comment to the planning application NOW.
The cafe would not bring in rolling funds no one  would use it to that extent .plenty of very good cafes in Marple .
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on October 09, 2017, 06:58:17 AM
Some great pictures of Marple Wharf sent over last night by David Burridge have been added to the Virtual History Tour today:

http://visitmarple.co.uk/photos/thumbnails.php?album=lastup&cat=0 (http://visitmarple.co.uk/photos/thumbnails.php?album=lastup&cat=0)

(http://visitmarple.co.uk/photos/albums/userpics/10002/09-07-05_marple_wharf_lock_festival_july_2009a.jpg)

It would be good to get that petition up to 1,000 signatures before it's presented to Marple AC, less than 100 to go:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/save-marple-wharf (https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/save-marple-wharf)
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Blackfryers on October 11, 2017, 04:12:51 PM
Sorry, didn't realise there was a reply...
1. The business plan has been formulated by a group of about ten people, led by Councillor Sue Ingham, and Marple Civic Society is heavily involved. It contains the sort of uses you would expect with cafe, heritage displays, community and exercise class meeting space. Many other similar facilities have been found to be viable in other parts of Britain, but obviously this depends on the purchase price. Because of the attitude of CRT in demanding full residential value for the warehouse we don't want to release figures as we think they will just try to rubbish them and use them to get their planning consent. We do still want to talk sensibly with them, but the planning application is a gun to our heads - how can any  community group work with an organisation that does this?
2. There has been a suggestion that CRT can only 'dispose of assets at their full value'. However the proposed use is fully inline with their charitably status, so this consideration simply does not apply. And in other cases CRT does collaborate with community groups. We are at a loss to explain why they are so intransigent with Marple apart from being desperate to make as much money as possible. Any ideas?
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: amazon on October 11, 2017, 04:55:17 PM
Sorry, didn't realise there was a reply...
1. The business plan has been formulated by a group of about ten people, led by Councillor Sue Ingham, and Marple Civic Society is heavily involved. It contains the sort of uses you would expect with cafe, heritage displays, community and exercise class meeting space. Many other similar facilities have been found to be viable in other parts of Britain, but obviously this depends on the purchase price. Because of the attitude of CRT in demanding full residential value for the warehouse we don't want to release figures as we think they will just try to rubbish them and use them to get their planning consent. We do still want to talk sensibly with them, but the planning application is a gun to our heads - how can any  community group work with an organisation that does this?
2. There has been a suggestion that CRT can only 'dispose of assets at their full value'. However the proposed use is fully inline with their charitably status, so this consideration simply does not apply. And in other cases CRT does collaborate with community groups. We are at a loss to explain why they are so intransigent with Marple apart from being desperate to make as much money as possible. Any ideas?
You are wasting your time .if you do manage to obtain the building you will strugle to make it pay its way .
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Dave on October 11, 2017, 05:29:03 PM
The business plan has been formulated by a group of about ten people, led by Councillor Sue Ingham, and Marple Civic Society is heavily involved... Because of the attitude of CRT in demanding full residential value for the warehouse we don't want to release figures as we think they will just try to rubbish them and use them to get their planning consent.

If you have so little confidence in your plan that you dare not publish it then you can hardly expect anyone else to take it seriously!

There has been a suggestion that CRT can only 'dispose of assets at their full value'. However the proposed use is fully inline with their charitably status, so this consideration simply does not apply.

It's nothing to do with the compatibility of your proposed use with the CRT's charitable status.  See https://www.gov.uk/guidance/charity-land-and-property. The relevant bit is this: 'Charity land sales and leases - legal requirements. The law says you must.. try to get the best deal for your charity'. As I said before, there are ways round that. If you read on past that bit you'll see that charities can sell for less than full market value if they get the consent of the Charity Commission. And that can be done - I've done it myself - but you have to make a good case, supported by a viable business plan (not a secret one!), and you need key political supporters onside, including your MP and your local authority.

It would be great to see that historic building transformed into a visitor centre, but you need to make a powerful public case for it, and I think you may now have missed the moment, sadly.

Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Dave on October 11, 2017, 06:29:01 PM
By the way, I meant to ask, MCS said seven years ago that they were going to submit a Heritage Lottery Fund application for this scheme. Did they?
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Condate on October 11, 2017, 07:41:12 PM
The relevant bit is this: 'Charity land sales and leases - legal requirements. The law says you must.. try to get the best deal for your charity'.

Does that really mean the best financial deal? That would be insane. Surely it must mean the best deal which promotes the aim of the charity. Anything else would be madness.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: amazon on October 11, 2017, 08:15:16 PM
By the way, I meant to ask, MCS said seven years ago that they were going to submit a Heritage Lottery Fund application for this scheme. Did they?
Notice you are still waiting for a reply Dave
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: wheels on October 11, 2017, 09:55:46 PM
By the way, I meant to ask, MCS said seven years ago that they were going to submit a Heritage Lottery Fund application for this scheme. Did they?
s

Is this the group of individuals(MCS) answerable and accountable to nobody. Those who shout loudest...... It that who you mean Dave.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: rsh on October 11, 2017, 10:25:39 PM
Surprised, as I have been all to often in the past, by the bizarre collection of opinions this forum attracts when a very worthy cause presents itself.

So I presume Dave, amazon, etc you’re gleefully awaiting the “for sale” sign to go up on this residential conversion? And none of us will EVER be able to step inside? Why?! If you (clearly) don’t care about the building, why bother posting.

1000+ signatures don’t paint the same picture of public opinion...
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Dave on October 12, 2017, 08:11:48 AM
Does that really mean the best financial deal? That would be insane.

Yes that is exactly what it means, and anyone who has ever been the trustee of a charity knows it perfectly well.  The same applies to public sector and semi-public sector bodies - local authorities, colleges, hospitals, academy schools etc.

So I presume Dave, amazon, etc you’re gleefully awaiting the “for sale” sign to go up on this residential conversion? And none of us will EVER be able to step inside? Why?! If you (clearly) don’t care about the building, why bother posting.

On the contrary, as I have said more than once in this thread, I would be delighted to see the building converted into a visitor centre.  The point I am making is that Marple Civic Society stated their intention back in 2010 to apply for Heritage Lottery funding to do exactly that (see http://www.marplecivicsociety.org.uk/A%20Vision%20for%20Marple_with%20front%20page%20picture_website.pdf), but then, as far as we can tell, they never got around to it.   Now someone else comes along with another scheme, which the society then tries to stop.

I think 'dog in a manger' is the phrase, isn't it?
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: marpleexile on October 12, 2017, 12:24:52 PM
So I presume Dave, amazon, etc you’re gleefully awaiting the “for sale” sign to go up on this residential conversion? And none of us will EVER be able to step inside? Why?! If you (clearly) don’t care about the building, why bother posting.

I've lived in Marple for (almost) all of my 43 yrs (had 4 years out in the middle somewhere). I've never stepped foot inside, nor am I aware of any opportunity to have ever stepped inside. I don't quite see what we're supposedly losing.

The building isn't being demolished, and it will have owners who have a vested interest in it's upkeep (as it'll literally be the roof over their heads). What's the problem here, other than, "change".
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: amazon on October 12, 2017, 05:05:04 PM
Surprised, as I have been all to often in the past, by the bizarre collection of opinions this forum attracts when a very worthy cause presents itself.

So I presume Dave, amazon, etc you’re gleefully awaiting the “for sale” sign to go up on this residential conversion? And none of us will EVER be able to step inside? Why?! If you (clearly) don’t care about the building, why bother posting.

1000+ signatures don’t paint the same picture of public opinion...
you have had longernough to decide you want to step inside .
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: rsh on February 19, 2018, 08:54:32 PM
Huge diggers on the site today... what’s going on?
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: amazon on February 19, 2018, 09:58:22 PM
Huge diggers on the site today... what’s going on?
ALDI .
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on March 21, 2018, 03:56:39 PM
Have just received a notification from the Council's Planners that amended plans have been submitted and these will be available on the portal in the next 5 to 7 days.

They are proposing another round of consultations with a deadline of 14 April 2018.

I can't see the new plans yet but will provide a link if I spot them.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: amazon on April 23, 2018, 01:52:35 PM
 The latest responce to Maple Wharf from civic society if on there website .
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on April 23, 2018, 03:34:00 PM
The latest responce to Maple Wharf from civic society if on there website .

Here's a direct link to the news of the society's web site:

http://marplecivicsociety.blogspot.co.uk/2018/04/marple-wharf-canal-river-trusts.html
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on December 06, 2018, 07:29:54 AM
Marple Wharf Development to be decided next Wednesday:

Marple Wharf Development Application will finally go before Marple Area Committee next Wednesday 12 December.

The application is DC/067001 and you can find the details on the Planning Portal by search for it via this link:

http://planning.stockport.gov.uk/PlanningData-live/search.do?action=simple&searchType=Application (http://planning.stockport.gov.uk/PlanningData-live/search.do?action=simple&searchType=Application)

Or this link may take you directly to it (but they do seem to time-expire):

http://planning.stockport.gov.uk/PlanningData-live/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=details&keyVal=OVJXKOPJGLT00 (http://planning.stockport.gov.uk/PlanningData-live/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=details&keyVal=OVJXKOPJGLT00)

You can read the planners report, which recommends approval, here:

http://democracy.stockport.gov.uk/documents/s149627/ITEMS%201%202%20-%20Reports%20DC067000%20%20DC067001%20Marple%20Wharf.pdf (http://democracy.stockport.gov.uk/documents/s149627/ITEMS%201%202%20-%20Reports%20DC067000%20%20DC067001%20Marple%20Wharf.pdf)

You can read the history of Marple Civic Society's battle to influence this scheme to benefit the community here:

https://marplecivicsociety.blogspot.com/search/label/Marple%20Wharf (https://marplecivicsociety.blogspot.com/search/label/Marple%20Wharf)
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: amazon on December 06, 2018, 10:57:28 AM
Marple Wharf Development to be decided next Wednesday:

Marple Wharf Development Application will finally go before Marple Area Committee next Wednesday 12 December.

The application is DC/067001 and you can find the details on the Planning Portal by search for it via this link:

http://planning.stockport.gov.uk/PlanningData-live/search.do?action=simple&searchType=Application (http://planning.stockport.gov.uk/PlanningData-live/search.do?action=simple&searchType=Application)

Or this link may take you directly to it (but they do seem to time-expire):

http://planning.stockport.gov.uk/PlanningData-live/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=details&keyVal=OVJXKOPJGLT00 (http://planning.stockport.gov.uk/PlanningData-live/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=details&keyVal=OVJXKOPJGLT00)

You can read the planners report, which recommends approval, here:

http://democracy.stockport.gov.uk/documents/s149627/ITEMS%201%202%20-%20Reports%20DC067000%20%20DC067001%20Marple%20Wharf.pdf (http://democracy.stockport.gov.uk/documents/s149627/ITEMS%201%202%20-%20Reports%20DC067000%20%20DC067001%20Marple%20Wharf.pdf)

You can read the history of Marple Civic Society's battle to influence this scheme to benefit the community here:

https://marplecivicsociety.blogspot.com/search/label/Marple%20Wharf (https://marplecivicsociety.blogspot.com/search/label/Marple%20Wharf)
Will it be webcast on he night
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on December 06, 2018, 11:07:31 AM
Will it be webcast on the night

Yes it will, the link to use for that is:

https://stockport.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/389768 (https://stockport.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/389768)
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: amazon on December 06, 2018, 11:13:47 AM
Yes it will, the link to use for that is:

https://stockport.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/389768 (https://stockport.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/389768)
Thanks for that enjoy watching them .
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on December 12, 2018, 06:35:59 AM
For me, this article demonstrate what is wrong with CRT's plans for the warehouse at Marple Wharf:

In this article about the conversion of a very similar canal side wharf at Froghall Basin their property surveyor says "The Trust works hard to make the most of all our unusual canalside buildings. Our aim is to celebrate our rich waterway heritage by supporting sensitive restorations and finding new 21st century uses for these wonderful structures."

Why have they not been able to apply that in Marple? I understand that compared to Marple, Froghall Basin is a quiet and out-of-the-way location.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/news/new-trip-boat-and-hettys-cafe-at-froghall-basin-staffordshire

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuF1KAWX4AEBo8w.jpg)
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: admin on December 13, 2018, 08:15:47 AM
The Marple Wharf planning application was refused by Marple Councillors last night.

It was interesting that Cllr Allan excluded himself from taking part in the decision making process because he is involved in an ongoing proposal for community use of the former warehouse. CRT also acknowledged that there is a scheme being discussed but obviously wanted to press ahead with this application to convert to a domestic dwelling. It will be even more interesting to see if this proposal develops into something that can be included in a revised planning application or if CRT decide that their next step is to appeal.

I hope CRT takes into account the strong community feelings on this, even if they consider that planning law will be on their side in an appeal.

You can watch proceeding back here:

https://stockport.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/389768 (https://stockport.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/389768)
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: ringi on December 13, 2018, 01:40:19 PM
If I was them I would put in an appeal even if I thought another option may be forthcoming.      There are methods to delay an appeal that has started while other options are considered.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: prestbury on December 18, 2018, 11:49:45 PM
For me, this article demonstrate what is wrong with CRT's plans for the warehouse at Marple Wharf:

In this article about the conversion of a very similar canal side wharf at Froghall Basin their property surveyor says "The Trust works hard to make the most of all our unusual canalside buildings. Our aim is to celebrate our rich waterway heritage by supporting sensitive restorations and finding new 21st century uses for these wonderful structures."

Why have they not been able to apply that in Marple? I understand that compared to Marple, Froghall Basin is a quiet and out-of-the-way location.


To be fair they are two totally different situations. Froghall is (currently) a dead end on the network with no significant properties or villages close by and generally only has a visitor footfall. Even boaters have difficulty due to the restrictions of Froghall tunnel.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: GeoffAbell on December 23, 2018, 08:36:20 PM
CRT, and their development company H2O, are required to make the most of their heritage assets.  It's a question of how they do that.  (There are many aspects of planning law as I remember well!)  I should love The Wharf to become a shining asset for Marple. 
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: rsh on January 02, 2019, 12:15:47 AM
To be fair they are two totally different situations. Froghall is (currently) a dead end on the network with no significant properties or villages close by and generally only has a visitor footfall. Even boaters have difficulty due to the restrictions of Froghall tunnel.

By that reckoning, you’d think something like a cafe wouldn’t be viable and indeed, having been there myself, it’d have made far more sense for a lavish residential conversion to give CRT a payout than Marple. I don’t know why they went in such different directions. Is the property market in Marple too tempting?

But by comparison Marple’s warehouse is hemmed in on all sides, totally overlooked by a towpath and practically in a town centre; not great for selling on as an expensive dream home but perfect for a well-used visitor hub and cafe.

I’m so glad the application was refused and only hope they do the decent thing and come back with a new plan which converts land value for sensible residential development (one fewer house at least) and reserves the warehouse for public use, with the income generated going directly into making Marple's canals the visitor draw they should be - bringing towpaths to Strines, Romiley and High Lane up to an acceptable standard would be a start.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: amazon on January 02, 2019, 11:32:12 AM
By that reckoning, you’d think something like a cafe wouldn’t be viable and indeed, having been there myself, it’d have made far more sense for a lavish residential conversion to give CRT a payout than Marple. I don’t know why they went in such different directions. Is the property market in Marple too tempting?

But by comparison Marple’s warehouse is hemmed in on all sides, totally overlooked by a towpath and practically in a town centre; not great for selling on as an expensive dream home but perfect for a well-used visitor hub and cafe.

I’m so glad the application was refused and only hope they do the decent thing and come back with a new plan which converts land value for sensible residential development (one fewer house at least) and reserves the warehouse for public use, with the income generated going directly into making Marple's canals the visitor draw they should be - bringing towpaths to Strines, Romiley and High Lane up to an acceptable standard would be a start.
Who pays to run your well used visitor centre and cafe .
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: andrewbowden on January 02, 2019, 12:37:28 PM
Who pays to run your well used visitor centre and cafe .

And who visits it?  And why?  What's in it?  How would it be any better than the current Welcome Station that is more conviently sited?

Go ask the people of Broadbottom how easy it is to run a visitor centre.  The local community there took over the visitor centre when Taneside council closed it.  It lasted a little while but now is a craft shop.  There's one on the Middlewood Way.  Every time I have been in, it's been empty. 

It's all very well having fantastic schemes but actually getting projects off the ground and sustainable in the long term.

All I see by supporters of this whole project is a lot of fantasy and very little realism. 
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Snowball on January 02, 2019, 09:59:56 PM

All I see by supporters of this whole project is a lot of fantasy and very little realism.

Agreed.

In a few years time, when the canopy has collapsed and the Wharf buildings are so badly decayed that they have to be demolished we’ll look back at this and say it’s a pity that this development was rejected. At least it would have saved the area from dereliction.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: amazon on January 03, 2019, 11:12:43 AM
Agreed.

In a few years time, when the canopy has collapsed and the Wharf buildings are so badly decayed that they have to be demolished we’ll look back at this and say it’s a pity that this development was rejected. At least it would have saved the area from dereliction.
It needs a lot of money spending on it now .the councilors rejected the aplication on the grounds of parking and density .
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Snowball on January 03, 2019, 02:27:49 PM
It needs a lot of money spending on it now .the councilors rejected the aplication on the grounds of parking and density .

It does but here we have a developer who is prepared to spend that money. There seems to no viable alternatives only a load of pipe dreams.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: GM on January 04, 2019, 11:11:26 AM
Having looked over the plans for the development including the provision for the bins and new horizon mooring.
Surely there would be room for compromise, excluding the pipe dreams for a cafe.

It makes more sense to utilise the unused wharf for use as an actual mooring and storing of the new horizon boat!.
Considering it is used by the disabled they could also adapt the end section for easier access by wheel chairs.

The planned bins and canal boat facilities could be sited directly behind, and allow for the current housing development to be extended and provide a clear distinction between the new and historic building.

They could convert the remain area of the wharf into a separate one/two bedroom apartment, as a full conversion would have to be built with the canal flowing freely under the a false floor on the ground level.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Malcolm Allan on January 09, 2019, 01:06:58 PM
I can say a bit more about the proposal a group of us have been working on. Our team is four professional local people with relevant skills whose sole purpose is to save the wharf for community use and community ownership. For a year we’ve been working on a full professional business plan, which is complete. This has been fully worked up, with cash flow and business projections but let me stress this would be a community enterprise – community owned and run. The plan has a cafe and heritage room on the ground floor (available for community room hire) and a health and fitness centre on the top floor. We have local business partners committed to both who have helped us work up business projections including income, operation and so on. The building is in a very poor state and it needs to be renovated and used. There is quite a bit of cash needed to get it into any sort of use and then more to turn it into anything else. Plus it will need planning permission in all events –  a heritage centre needs planning permission under the same overall planning rules as housing, so it is quite crucial the reasons why the application has been turned down, especially if the reasons apply to all types of use (parking and traffic issues for example). If these apply to heritage use, then a big difficulty has been created by turning down the planning application, as it will mean the building simply can't be used for anything at all so will be lost to the community. If we can’t get planning approval, we won’t get grants either. Our plan saves the building and gives it our best shot to run it for the benefit of the whole community. If it fails it won’t be for lack of trying to do something positive and if it fails it will still belong to the community, and to Marple!

We have had assistance from the council, both in looking at the business aspects and at the finances, plus practical support on how to run a heritage shop and what throughput and income we could expect. We have a structural engineer in our team and have had pro bono help of architects, accountants and surveyors.

We have successfully brought the CRT along with us and have outline heads of agreement and a price for purchase, all done prior to the planning application. They had agreed that if they obtained planning permission they would do nothing, but would instantly pause for a considerable period to let us raise money for the building and guarantee to sell it to the community if we reached the price agreed.

Our aim would be to supplement grant money we can obtain by being a community enterprise, with public share subscription – for residents not big business! This would need to be secured by the ownership of the building and a fall back if the enterprise fails, so that investors have security. One writer is correct to say this sort of enterprise is prone to failure, which is why we have a robust plan that has been tested and assessed, and uses the experience locally of the Northumberland Arms which has been very successful in its first year. We are forming our legal community company now, but need to work through how to get planning approval. If there are people with relevant skills who are genuinely committed to this sort of plan, we welcome interest.

(https://visitmarple.co.uk/photos/albums/uploads/new/mlhs-c/marple-wharf-02.jpg) (https://visitmarple.co.uk/photos/albums/userpics/10002/09-12-18_marple_wharf_winter_2009.jpg)
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: ringi on January 10, 2019, 05:09:12 PM
Is a cafe run by a community enterprise not totally unfair on people who have invested their own money to open cafes in Marple?

How can we expect anyone to invest in Mapple if they are then faced with unfair competition?
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Phil on January 10, 2019, 08:28:38 PM
Is a cafe run by a community enterprise not totally unfair on people who have invested their own money to open cafes in Marple?

How can we expect anyone to invest in Mapple if they are then faced with unfair competition?
You'll have to help me out here ringi. I don't have any involvement in the project outlined by Malcolm by the way but why would a community enterprise cafe be unfair competition? Competition yes but why unfair?

Plus will the wharf really pull custom from a town centre cafe? Potentially the "All Saint's Mums" et al would venture there rather than trek down the hill but I'm not sure someone already in town would trek up to the wharf for a brew....

RH
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: andrewbowden on January 10, 2019, 08:36:46 PM
You'll have to help me out here ringi. I don't have any involvement in the project outlined by Malcolm by the way but why would a community enterprise cafe be unfair competition? Competition yes but why unfair?

Plus will the wharf really pull custom from a town centre cafe? Potentially the "All Saint's Mums" et al would venture there rather than trek down the hill but I'm not sure someone already in town would trek up to the wharf for a brew....

It's possible people from outside the area using the canal towpath would use a cafe next to the canal, rather than divert off into town to get refreshment.  I have seen people in walking boots in the Samuel Oldknown before now, and whilst I don't know where they came from, they could have been on the towpath.

If you walk the towpath through Disley you'll find signs next to the towpath telling you all the pubs and cafes.  Thus encouraging you to visit the various small businesses in the area...
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: corium on January 11, 2019, 09:33:33 AM
Is a cafe run by a community enterprise not totally unfair on people who have invested their own money to open cafes in Marple?

How can we expect anyone to invest in Mapple if they are then faced with unfair competition?

As I understand it this project will be funded along the same lines as the Northumberland Arms i.e. a significant proportion will be from the local community funding it from their own pockets to open it so local people will be risking their own money, albeit  individually, on a smaller scale. However I think potentially everyone might benefit. As it happens I have a friend who developed holiday accommodation many years ago which happen to be near the Froghall Wharf that many are using as a comparison to this development. They tell me that on some days you can hardly move for visitors and some of the local businesses e.g. the pub can't believe their luck and they have certainly seen a rise in off peak bookings many of which specifically mention the wharf as being the focal point for their holidays.
Title: Re: Marple Wharf Development
Post by: Howard on January 14, 2019, 08:23:49 AM
Is a cafe run by a community enterprise not totally unfair on people who have invested their own money to open cafes in Marple?

How can we expect anyone to invest in Mapple if they are then faced with unfair competition?

@ringi Just because something is funded by the community doesn't mean it's unfair. "Community owned" means owned by many shareholders in the community rather than just a few. What's unfair about that?