To me the proposals for Marple Wharf are all take and no give. I would be much happier if BW were meeting a few more of their objectives and critera that they brag about on their web site.
Maybe the credit crunch will sort this development out, as it seems to have done at Compstall.
What concerns me about this subject is that when and if, a planning application is submitted, will this council, notwithstanding the views of the residents and other interested groups, pass it, rather than run the risk of a costly appeal.
Lets hope that some pressure can be placed on BWB to try to incorporate sensible suggestions. Just saying no all the time will in the long run, get Marple nowhere.
I would not be surprised if the Church Lane end of the site might eventually be part of the same long term plan.
How nice it would be if Stockport MBC bought the whole site and perhaps entered into a joint venture with other agencies and have the whole area dedicated to leisurely youth activities sea scouts boating etc and of course the New Horizons.
Just a thought
Marple Wharf – Community Facilities
(http://www.marple-uk.com/design8.jpg)
You may already be aware that British Waterways are planning to develop their site alongside the canal in Marple between the bridge at Top Lock and the bridge near the Ring o’ Bells (the area historically known as “Marple Wharf”), as it is surplus to their operational requirements.
BW’s initial plan for residential use only on the site was not well received by the local community and, as a result, Marple Civic Society (MCS) is now in joint consultation with British Waterways to look at alternative and more suitable options for the site.
BW is currently studying revised proposals on the basis of the discussions held with MCS. Meanwhile, MCS is itself studying various options for the site, as it would like to see a more community-based development, for recreational and community purposes in line with the feedback from the community.
MCS would therefore like to determine the level of interest of local organisations, clubs and enterprises in using any existing or newly built facilities on the site, whether on a minimal part-time basis (such as an hour or two per week) or with a more substantial involvement.
Although discussions with BW are only at a very preliminary stage MCS would like to hear if you might be interested in using such facilities on the site - obviously with absolutely no commitment on your part at this stage.
Please e-mail them or, if you would like to discuss this further, do not hesitate to phone.
Gillian Postill (tel. 0161 427 1379)
Graham Clarke (tel. 0161 285 9357)
David Sumner (tel. 0161 449 9084)
Email wharf@marple-uk.com (will be received by all three Civic Society members listed above).
Posted on behalf of Marple Civic Society.
Our alternative
Although we don’t like such high density development and the lack of public access, we recognise the need for CRT to capitalise on its assets. Therefore we reluctantly accept the current proposal for new build housing, even though we would prefer fewer houses but we believe that the warehouse should be retained as close to its original form as possible. In their own site appraisal CRT acknowledge that the warehouse, toll house and toll cottages form an important part of the historic canal corridor.
We would like to see the warehouse developed by CRT jointly with the community, into an information and tourist centre for the canal network and local area, providing a convivial place for both the community and visitors. The upper floor can be hired out to local groups for their regular use, bringing in additional revenue. The two historic artefacts (crane and weigh machine) could be moved to a place adjacent to the warehouse. A development such as this would preserve the key historic features of the site and it would even add value to the houses by providing a focus for them.
The matter of the business plan is more complicated than it appears at first sight. CRT have signed over all their rights to a company called H2O. This is a joint venture between CRT and a property company. The development is being proposed by H2O and they are very much in the driving seat - CRT is effectively a sleeping partner but will take half the final profit.Very informative .Thank you .
The warehouse is worth much more with planning permission for conversion into a house so that is what H2O is aiming for. Without planning permission the warehouse is worth perhaps £50,000 but with it, the value rises to £250,000. H2O say they are willing to consider a business plan but it must be a plan that gives them £250,000. In other words, they are assuming that they will get planning permission for the warehouse. Moreover, they have set themselves up as judge and jury of any business plan that will be put forward. They have no interest in developing the canal and no interest in any community use. What they want is to move in, make a conversion, sell it and then go away. There is no long term interest.
The matter of the business plan is more complicated than it appears at first sight. CRT have signed over all their rights to a company called H2O. This is a joint venture between CRT and a property company. The development is being proposed by H2O and they are very much in the driving seat - CRT is effectively a sleeping partner but will take half the final profit.
The warehouse is worth much more with planning permission for conversion into a house so that is what H2O is aiming for. Without planning permission the warehouse is worth perhaps £50,000 but with it, the value rises to £250,000. H2O say they are willing to consider a business plan but it must be a plan that gives them £250,000. In other words, they are assuming that they will get planning permission for the warehouse. Moreover, they have set themselves up as judge and jury of any business plan that will be put forward. They have no interest in developing the canal and no interest in any community use. What they want is to move in, make a conversion, sell it and then go away. There is no long term interest.
H2O Urban are a property development company. They go in, they develop the site, they move on. They don't want a long term interest. That's not their job after all. So let's not be particular surprised by the fact that their focus is on making money, for THAT is their business. Their entire reason for existing is to develop sites for CRT, and making money for the two shareholders, one of which is CRT.
Converting to housing makes them more money. Money that would, of course, be partly used to redevelop the building. Conversion to housing offers no risk - you make the house and move on. Conversion to a visitor centre offers lots of risk because of funding.
Someone might work out say three years funding, and then it dries up afterwards. What then? Covert to housing? Well that is extra cost. Plus you then have to consider planning permission, and here things get more awkward because now you are trying to take something away that previously existed. It's one thing to deny the ability to setup something that didn't exist. And it's a whole different thing to try take away the facility that did exist. Even if it is one that failed.
I totally get why they want to go with a safer option. And i totally get why they are only prepared to counter changing the plan if they have solid financial commitment.
They are protecting the CRT from financial risk.
What's the alternative in all this? It's a shabby looking building doing very little.
Marple Civic Society has posted some more details and comments about this a couple of days ago:
http://marplecivicsociety.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/marple-wharf-planning-application-how.html
I'm sure someone could argue quite strongly that converting the warehouse to housing, gives the building a strong, sustainable future. Thus 2.2 would be met by conserving the building in a new use. It does not state that conserving buildings have to be in their original use after all.
As for 2.5, well you could argue on the detail of that one until the cows come home on that one. But ultimately they do a lot of work already in that respect.
Perhaps then the Trust's objects need to be changed to explicitly prevent developments like these and ensure that housing is not an acceptable use for any significant buildings.
Hmmm, what a load of NIMBY nonsense.
I read in their minutes the other week that they were aware that they were seen in some quarters as being a negative organisation that only exists to oppose planning applications - and used in their defence that there had been 25 recent planning applications and that they had only commented on one, forgetting to mention that it had been a negative comment and thus disproving the point they were trying to make.
So their objections are:
- Inadequate parking
- Waste disposal
- inadequate facilities and access for New Horizons trip boat
- inadequate services for pleasure boats
- a complete disregard for the unique heritage
1 & 2 are basically objecting that the parking spaces and wheelie bin storage are too far from the front doors of the houses! Seriously, that's considered a reason to object to a planning application? Good job they weren't around 100 years ago or else my terrace house would never have been built!
3 & 4 I don't know enough about, but I'm surprised that it is something that should be considered in a planning application as sure that is a "business" decision for the Canal operators to sort.
5 is just a nonsense statement. The building is an industrial remnant. It'll never be used for it's original purpose again. Turning it into housing, so that there will be interested parties who have to maintain it, is probably the best outcome, and gives the Trust money to maintain the rest of the waterways.
Marple civic society have recomended refusall of this aplication .
As Amazon says, Marple Civic Society has responded to the application:
http://marplecivicsociety.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/planning-application-dc067000-marple.html
However, I will say that a group has been trying to make The Wharf something of community interest for quite a while now.
The community has a viable use (café, heritage centre and community rooms) with a viable business plan
The CRT is a charity, and it is governed by the normal restrictions on what charities may and may not do. One thing they may not do is dispose of assets at less than their full value ('best consideration' in the jargon). There are ways round that, but the consent of the Charity Commission has to be secured. This takes time and patience, and a lot of political pressure from MPs, local authorities etc.Will be interesting to see if you recieve a reply
Blackfryers, you write
I've looked for this on the MCS website, but it's not there. However, what I did find was a document called 'Vision for Marple', published in January 2010. This ends as follows:
NEXT STEPS
Form a partnership of interested organisations, principally Stockport MBC, British Waterways and Marple Civic Society to set up a Regeneration Committee to design, promote and deliver a Vision for Marple. The committee would co-op [sic] interested parties as required and would seek Heritage Lottery Funds and other sources of finance to assist in regenerating Marple to make it the "Jewel in the Crown" of Stockport MBC.
That was over seven years ago. Did it happen? Was there an HLF application? if so, why was it unsuccessful?
Projects like this don’t happen overnight
I’m glad to see the 500+ signatures already on the petition disagree with the shockingly negative attitude of many here.The cafe would not bring in rolling funds no one would use it to that extent .plenty of very good cafes in Marple .
Building some houses on that bit of wasteland, fine. But the wharf warehouse too? Isn’t that just a massive waste of a potential asset? If the Canal and River Trust were truly wanting to make a positive difference to Marple’s canals they’d use the funds from the new build houses to prop up the redevelopment of the warehouse into a heritage facility... the café of which could then bring in rolling funds, not a one-off sell off.
There are numerous case examples of them being involved with similar buildings around the country, why they have thrown in the towel here is beyond me, but I get a feeling they’ve smelt blood with the Marple property market values. Unfortunately, THEIR values shouldn’t be a race to cash in for short term gain.
Good on Marple Civic Society for (finally) being a bit louder about this. Perhaps having it almost blow up will focus everyone’s attention on it enough that Marple won’t let it be wasted after all. Projects like this don’t happen overnight, especially when the major party hardly seems cooperative (even just a quick scan of the planning documents gives this impression). It might be a struggle and it might take years, but saving this building from being closed off to the public for the rest of its existence with yet another bland residential conversion will be worth it.
If we can find thousands of pounds to build a skate park or save a single pub, surely we can come together to give Marple’s canals the centrepiece they need.
Sign the petition and add your comment to the planning application NOW.
Sorry, didn't realise there was a reply...You are wasting your time .if you do manage to obtain the building you will strugle to make it pay its way .
1. The business plan has been formulated by a group of about ten people, led by Councillor Sue Ingham, and Marple Civic Society is heavily involved. It contains the sort of uses you would expect with cafe, heritage displays, community and exercise class meeting space. Many other similar facilities have been found to be viable in other parts of Britain, but obviously this depends on the purchase price. Because of the attitude of CRT in demanding full residential value for the warehouse we don't want to release figures as we think they will just try to rubbish them and use them to get their planning consent. We do still want to talk sensibly with them, but the planning application is a gun to our heads - how can any community group work with an organisation that does this?
2. There has been a suggestion that CRT can only 'dispose of assets at their full value'. However the proposed use is fully inline with their charitably status, so this consideration simply does not apply. And in other cases CRT does collaborate with community groups. We are at a loss to explain why they are so intransigent with Marple apart from being desperate to make as much money as possible. Any ideas?
The business plan has been formulated by a group of about ten people, led by Councillor Sue Ingham, and Marple Civic Society is heavily involved... Because of the attitude of CRT in demanding full residential value for the warehouse we don't want to release figures as we think they will just try to rubbish them and use them to get their planning consent.
There has been a suggestion that CRT can only 'dispose of assets at their full value'. However the proposed use is fully inline with their charitably status, so this consideration simply does not apply.
The relevant bit is this: 'Charity land sales and leases - legal requirements. The law says you must.. try to get the best deal for your charity'.
By the way, I meant to ask, MCS said seven years ago that they were going to submit a Heritage Lottery Fund application for this scheme. Did they?Notice you are still waiting for a reply Dave
By the way, I meant to ask, MCS said seven years ago that they were going to submit a Heritage Lottery Fund application for this scheme. Did they?s
Does that really mean the best financial deal? That would be insane.
So I presume Dave, amazon, etc you’re gleefully awaiting the “for sale” sign to go up on this residential conversion? And none of us will EVER be able to step inside? Why?! If you (clearly) don’t care about the building, why bother posting.
So I presume Dave, amazon, etc you’re gleefully awaiting the “for sale” sign to go up on this residential conversion? And none of us will EVER be able to step inside? Why?! If you (clearly) don’t care about the building, why bother posting.
Surprised, as I have been all to often in the past, by the bizarre collection of opinions this forum attracts when a very worthy cause presents itself.you have had longernough to decide you want to step inside .
So I presume Dave, amazon, etc you’re gleefully awaiting the “for sale” sign to go up on this residential conversion? And none of us will EVER be able to step inside? Why?! If you (clearly) don’t care about the building, why bother posting.
1000+ signatures don’t paint the same picture of public opinion...
Huge diggers on the site today... what’s going on?ALDI .
The latest responce to Maple Wharf from civic society if on there website .
Marple Wharf Development to be decided next Wednesday:Will it be webcast on he night
Marple Wharf Development Application will finally go before Marple Area Committee next Wednesday 12 December.
The application is DC/067001 and you can find the details on the Planning Portal by search for it via this link:
http://planning.stockport.gov.uk/PlanningData-live/search.do?action=simple&searchType=Application (http://planning.stockport.gov.uk/PlanningData-live/search.do?action=simple&searchType=Application)
Or this link may take you directly to it (but they do seem to time-expire):
http://planning.stockport.gov.uk/PlanningData-live/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=details&keyVal=OVJXKOPJGLT00 (http://planning.stockport.gov.uk/PlanningData-live/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=details&keyVal=OVJXKOPJGLT00)
You can read the planners report, which recommends approval, here:
http://democracy.stockport.gov.uk/documents/s149627/ITEMS%201%202%20-%20Reports%20DC067000%20%20DC067001%20Marple%20Wharf.pdf (http://democracy.stockport.gov.uk/documents/s149627/ITEMS%201%202%20-%20Reports%20DC067000%20%20DC067001%20Marple%20Wharf.pdf)
You can read the history of Marple Civic Society's battle to influence this scheme to benefit the community here:
https://marplecivicsociety.blogspot.com/search/label/Marple%20Wharf (https://marplecivicsociety.blogspot.com/search/label/Marple%20Wharf)
Will it be webcast on the night
Yes it will, the link to use for that is:Thanks for that enjoy watching them .
https://stockport.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/389768 (https://stockport.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/389768)
For me, this article demonstrate what is wrong with CRT's plans for the warehouse at Marple Wharf:
In this article about the conversion of a very similar canal side wharf at Froghall Basin their property surveyor says "The Trust works hard to make the most of all our unusual canalside buildings. Our aim is to celebrate our rich waterway heritage by supporting sensitive restorations and finding new 21st century uses for these wonderful structures."
Why have they not been able to apply that in Marple? I understand that compared to Marple, Froghall Basin is a quiet and out-of-the-way location.
To be fair they are two totally different situations. Froghall is (currently) a dead end on the network with no significant properties or villages close by and generally only has a visitor footfall. Even boaters have difficulty due to the restrictions of Froghall tunnel.
By that reckoning, you’d think something like a cafe wouldn’t be viable and indeed, having been there myself, it’d have made far more sense for a lavish residential conversion to give CRT a payout than Marple. I don’t know why they went in such different directions. Is the property market in Marple too tempting?Who pays to run your well used visitor centre and cafe .
But by comparison Marple’s warehouse is hemmed in on all sides, totally overlooked by a towpath and practically in a town centre; not great for selling on as an expensive dream home but perfect for a well-used visitor hub and cafe.
I’m so glad the application was refused and only hope they do the decent thing and come back with a new plan which converts land value for sensible residential development (one fewer house at least) and reserves the warehouse for public use, with the income generated going directly into making Marple's canals the visitor draw they should be - bringing towpaths to Strines, Romiley and High Lane up to an acceptable standard would be a start.
Who pays to run your well used visitor centre and cafe .
All I see by supporters of this whole project is a lot of fantasy and very little realism.
Agreed.It needs a lot of money spending on it now .the councilors rejected the aplication on the grounds of parking and density .
In a few years time, when the canopy has collapsed and the Wharf buildings are so badly decayed that they have to be demolished we’ll look back at this and say it’s a pity that this development was rejected. At least it would have saved the area from dereliction.
It needs a lot of money spending on it now .the councilors rejected the aplication on the grounds of parking and density .
Is a cafe run by a community enterprise not totally unfair on people who have invested their own money to open cafes in Marple?You'll have to help me out here ringi. I don't have any involvement in the project outlined by Malcolm by the way but why would a community enterprise cafe be unfair competition? Competition yes but why unfair?
How can we expect anyone to invest in Mapple if they are then faced with unfair competition?
You'll have to help me out here ringi. I don't have any involvement in the project outlined by Malcolm by the way but why would a community enterprise cafe be unfair competition? Competition yes but why unfair?
Plus will the wharf really pull custom from a town centre cafe? Potentially the "All Saint's Mums" et al would venture there rather than trek down the hill but I'm not sure someone already in town would trek up to the wharf for a brew....
Is a cafe run by a community enterprise not totally unfair on people who have invested their own money to open cafes in Marple?
How can we expect anyone to invest in Mapple if they are then faced with unfair competition?
Is a cafe run by a community enterprise not totally unfair on people who have invested their own money to open cafes in Marple?
How can we expect anyone to invest in Mapple if they are then faced with unfair competition?